Test: Freezing liquid

[kinabaloo]

Solid? Holy spit.

Do you know what the ratios were?

I know that VG/Water can drop the freezing point well under -18°C, and I wouldn't expect this from just PG or PG/Nicotine.

Are we looking at a mix of PG, VG, and nicotine? Perhaps the VG's effect in a non-aqueous system is to raise the freezing point since it's not like with water where VG does it's hydrogen bonding thing with water to disrupt the ability to crystallize.

I'm not quite ready to turn in my chem degree, but I might talk to the university about getting me a refund!

Certainly an inteesting result. Perhaps it is those H nonds again (disrupted; the water might well be key to the result), and the nature of the constituents as aqeous or not, as you said. Chemistry is fascinating

Just shows that things often dont work out as expected.

ps: I think when noticeable juice spoilage occurs (the 'yuk' type), this is proly microbial, and this is the where freezing (the temp rather than the solidity or otherwise) lends a major advantage.

 

[Kurt]

It was 20% VG , mostly PG, and a pipette of distilled water.
I only froze 3 ml bottles.

Shall try 6ml and 10 ml...

It's a Subzero freezer.

Quo: did it expand upon freezing or retain about the same volume? It would be good if it did not expand, of course. And what is the actual temp of your freezer? I must admit that I do not have enough juice yet to risk it...man, one does protect this stuff fiercely, huh? Damned FDA...

 

[quovadis]

good question...

same volume...

 

[Kurt]

I'm not surprised it froze. A google search of PG probably made some of you think that it would not freeze. However, the addition of water disrupts the H-bonding of PG and greatly raises the freezing point. Likewise, water has the same effect with the bp. Pure PG would probably not vape at all. Also, PG and water are completely miscible, so a physical state change like freezing shouldn't affect the quality of the soln. and might be a great way to store long-term. The only unknown for me is the flavorings. I'll be interested in your results.

Thatdamncat, good to hear the use of the term H-bonding from someone else! *tipping his hat and bowing* Chemistry rules, for sure. And this is all chemistry.

Check out the thread in tips "What is the Best Way to Store E-Liquids?". See http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/tips-tricks/26959-what-best-way-store-e-liquids.html

The bottom line is based on info from Sun and my own thoughts on the chemistry, I am now retracting my suggestion to fridge/freezer store e-juices. (I am not shouting here with boldface...I can't turn it off! )

The current info points to dark, cool (not cold), and dry. Like a desiccator! With drying packs used for vitamin jars, or SiO2 used for flower drying.

Given the info discussed there, it does not seem like a good idea at all to use the fridge or freezer for any reason, so freezing points are now, for me, a moot point. For those that experimented here with freezing, as long as you did not open the bottle while it was cold, it should be fine if you just bring it back to room temp, and perhaps shake it homogeneous again.

We ARE going to solve the long term storage issue! And when I submit this, my boldface setting will hopefully turn off, as I am losing my voice shouting!

Enjoy a vaporous weekend!
Kurt

 

[kinabaloo]

I've still not heard a good argument against not storing in the fridge or freezer. Though it is best done fully topped up.

 

[Kurt]

good question...

same volume...

I think you got lucky on that one! Had it expanded like water does, you would have had quite a mess on your hands...literally. 8-o

Still, it does seem like based on Sun's experience with flavored juices, as well as others, those, at least, should be stored in dark, cool, dry conditions. Some of Sun's went bad...sounds like water hydrolysis on the flavor esters made acetic acid (vinegar) and organic alcohols, which depending on the length of the carbon chain, can stink bad! This may not be from just cold, but the fact that cold juice will absorb water.

So I for one am avoiding the fridge or freezer for long-term storage.

Kurt

 

[kinabaloo]

This article is of inteest to this topic:

http://www.jbc.org/content/234/1/151.full.pdf

I can#t get it to open properly but others may be able to do so.

Google summary: "oxidized nicotine at a slow but definite rate. The amount of ... which oxidized nicotine lost this ability upon storage at -18”. 1 Prepared ..."

 

[emus]

I think you got lucky on that one! Had it expanded like water does, you would have had quite a mess on your hands...literally. 8-o

Still, it does seem like based on Sun's experience with flavored juices, as well as others, those, at least, should be stored in dark, cool, dry conditions. Some of Sun's went bad...sounds like water hydrolysis on the flavor esters made acetic acid (vinegar) and organic alcohols, which depending on the length of the carbon chain, can stink bad! This may not be from just cold, but the fact that cold juice will absorb water.

So I for one am avoiding the fridge or freezer for long-term storage.

Kurt

Mine does not expand of freeze at 5F in the freezer.

I understand the PG is hydroscopic in nature.

I understand cold liquid opened to warm air will cause condensation.

I don't understand how significant water can enter a sealed container in the freezer.

If a bottle from the freezer is allowed to adjust to ambient temp before opening. Why would excessive moisture enter the bottle?

If water did enter the bottle, would that be so bad? I used to dilute my liquid with water, after e-liquid sales were banned on ebay.

Water will enter PG at room temperature through hydrolysis once exposed to ambient moisture; no refrigeration required.

Some DIY juice is made from PG with 1% water.

I expect the production of acetic acid will increase with higher temperatures not lower ones.

And what is the catalyst for the acidic acid production?
Perhaps bacteria fermentation?
Where did the bacteria come from?
Would not the fermentation accelerate at higher temps?
Perhaps the defective juices were out of pH spec?
Would not the acidic acid formation be decelerated by cooling?

My juice has been in the ref and freezer for a few months.
So far so good.

 

[elpasobob]

I have dekang juice (camel, coffee, many others) in my standalone freezer, 18mg and 24mg in the original 30 ml bottles, the thermometer says 10 F, my juice is not frozen solid.

 

[kinabaloo]

Storing in a freezer doesn't need to make the liquid solid just very cold, which slows down both chemical and microbial activity.

If unlucky, microbial spoilage could be significant in liquid life. Mostly though it is oxidation and decomposition. And light seems to be the most significant (acting as catalyst). I have seen mention of artificial light being significant to (unusual, as it's normally the UV in daylight that is sufficiently energetic to act as a catalyst). So avoid all light. Keep containers topped up (change to smaller ones if necessary, with careful slow pouring). And if in a warm climate, keep cool or cold. Freezer is ok.

If anything, best it doesn't solidify (though that should do no harm); just very cold but still liquid is ideal.

 

[augie]

niquid won't freeze at 0. Needs to get much colder. I'll mail you some blood, is a 55 gallon drum enough? Just kidding, but if there was a way to get it drawn at my local hospital and them transport it to you I would be all for it. I appreciate what you are doing to help the cause.

as long as the barrel dont say military branding on it, every horror flick i've seen those things don't last long and rust quick.

 

[Araddoman]

Hi, I am new to this forum and also to vaping. Got my Joye 510 starter kit from Cignot on the 22nd 8 days ago. So far, I love it. Haven't had a cigarette since I received my e-cig in the mail. Had smoked around a pack of full-flavored whatever per day prior to vaping.

I would like to know if anyone has input not so much concerning freezing e-liquid for storage use but rather, leaving it in your car in winter time. Winter is coming fast, and I it would be great to know if I shouldn't leave any e-liquid in my car while I am at work or other places. While the e-liquid is my main question mark, I also might as well get input on my Joye 510 manual batteries and also atomizers, whether they will be fine in a car during winter, and for how long. I live in Iowa, so winter here is definately winter.

Any sort of input, information, personal experiences related to this, etc would be awesome. Thanks.

 

[DC2]

Any sort of input, information, personal experiences related to this, etc would be awesome. Thanks.

I suggest starting a thread in the New Members area of the forum.

 

[Araddoman]

I suggest starting a thread in the New Members area of the forum.

Why would you suggest that when I have a very specific question directly related to THIS thread?

Because I am a new member, am I confined to the "new members" area of the forums for a certain length of time or are you just being stupid?

 

[DC2]

Why would you suggest that when I have a very specific question directly related to THIS thread?

Because I am a new member, am I confined to the "new members" area of the forums for a certain length of time or are you just being stupid?

If you look at the dates of the posts in this thread you will notice it doesn't get a lot of traffic.
I think it is a good question that many people might want to read and contribute to.

I would have suggested you start it in the General Smoking Discussion section.
But you don't have enough posts to do that, so you can't.

Other than that, perhaps I'm just being stupid.

 

[Ez Duzit]

[ In your best Forest Gump voice] Stupid is as stupid does
( I couldn't resist)

 

[Archer74]

Any sort of input, information, personal experiences related to this, etc would be awesome. Thanks.

Hi! welcome to the forum. well, i would say most if not all of the answers/info you are looking for can be found on the first three pages of this thread. Other users have expressed their opinions and experience/s regarding low temperature exposure of liquids. Please feel free to review their thoughts.

As for the hardware, it would be best to carry it with you. A "frozen atomizer" could strain the battery. And since the battery itself is electro-chemical, freezing temps should be avoided.

 

[CartHeadMod]

perhaps I missed it but I don't see an answer to the most important question.....after you thawed it out and vaped it, did you see any difference in the eliquid as a result of freezing it......

 

[sanfordf]

I have always stored my liquid nicotine in the freezer. Usually, 250ml jugs of 100mg/ml or 50mg/ml. All in a PG base. It doesn't freeze and seems to retain it's clarity and potency. It does get too thick to easily use, so I keep some (60ml) in a cool dark place for immediate use. I would not freeze my blended mixes (I use some distilled water). I keep those also in a cool dark place.

 

[emus]

perhaps I missed it but I don't see an answer to the most important question.....after you thawed it out and vaped it, did you see any difference in the eliquid as a result of freezing it......

I've had my juice stockpile in the freezer for well over one year with no problems.