TFA Caramel

[badnaamsingh]

I noticed that 2 (Caramel Original, Caramel Cotton Candy) of the 3 caramel flavors at TFA, have a "Diacetyl" warning.

#1 How does the 3rd one (Caramel flavor) without the warning compare with the 2 with the warning. Especially, in the context of making a tobbacco (RY4 type juice).

#2 Do other manufacturers warn about this too?

#3 What's the best Caramel flavor out there without this ingredient?

Thanks!

 

[Wingsfan0310]

1. I have all 3. I like Original best, followed by Caramel, followed by Caramel Candy.

2. Most don't warn you.

3. I don't know what's best. I haven't tried them all and a lot of companies don't tell you one way or the other.

Cheers,
Steve

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

I noticed that 2 (Caramel Original, Caramel Cotton Candy) of the 3 caramel flavors at TFA, have a "Diacetyl" warning.

#1 How does the 3rd one (Caramel flavor) without the warning compare with the 2 with the warning. Especially, in the context of making a tobbacco (RY4 type juice).

#2 Do other manufacturers warn about this too?

#3 What's the best Caramel flavor out there without this ingredient?

Thanks!

FlaourArt's Caramel is really good and doesn't contain either of the three chemicals, though it doesn't really have that overly creamy taste / texture to it, so you do sacrifice that when moving away from flavors with those chemicals in them. Most manufacturers do not warn, though TFA, FA and OOO are all working to make sure we know what is in the flavorings they sell so that we have a choice. Capella's is working on it still, though it's not publicized on their flavors yet. FlavorWest is iffy as they were hit pretty hard after their claim of diacety-free was disproved by lab testing.

TFA = The Flavor Apprentice
FA = Flavourart
OOO = OneOnOne Flavors

 

[jcol]

There is Diacetyl is some flavourings, and TFA are very good for informing us of what flavourings contain this.

In my expierence Diacetyl adds a creamy note to the flavouring.
For example TFA French Vanilla Deluxe (FVD) contains Diacetyl while French Vanilla does not.
Yet the FVD is much creamier and a nicer taste the the normal one.

This is just my opinion but...
As its only trace amounts of Diacetyl in these flavourings, literally in the parts per billion, you would have to be vaping gallons of the stuff to suffer form any ill effects.
Also as smokers did we all research every ingrediant that goes into a cigarette? i certainly didnt, so i am not too pushed over it tbh.

My own Vanilla Custard is just too yummy to abandon over Diacetyl.

Just my opinion guys..

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

The issue is the unknown to be honest. We have basic data on reports performed in labs on non-human subjects and the results are rather nasty. Without rehashing what has already been said in the other two larger threads on this subject, I'll use a basic example, which should give you an idea of why some are not okay with vaping those chemicals.

TFA states that trace amounts of said chemicals varies from .01% to .10%, so if we split the difference and say that all trace amounts are .05% and we use a flavor with .05% of "Chemical X" (take your pick of Diacetyl, Acetoin or Acetyl Proprionyl) at 5% in 10ml of finished product, the PPB content comes out to ~250 PPB which is 10-50x more than the recommended exposure limits by NIOSH.

"The recommended exposure limits for Diacetyl alone, according to NIOSH, is 5 PPB, or Parts per Billion, over an eight-hour time-weighted average during a 40-hour work week and a short-term exposure limit of 25 PPB over a 15-minute time period."

Given that many vapers vape through 10ml's in as little as a few hours to a day, nearly 7 days a week, the exposure is amplified.


Those not wanting to vape these chemicals have a valid reason for not wanting to. Some don't mind, after all, Diacetyl is in tobacco cigarettes and on average, most of us smoked 1-3 packs a day, 7 days a week, though for those looking to move to a healthier option, excluding those chemicals is just part of it .

There is Diacetyl is some flavourings, and TFA are very good for informing us of what flavourings contain this.

In my expierence Diacetyl adds a creamy note to the flavouring.
For example TFA French Vanilla Deluxe (FVD) contains Diacetyl while French Vanilla does not.
Yet the FVD is much creamier and a nicer taste the the normal one.

This is just my opinion but...
As its only trace amounts of Diacetyl in these flavourings, literally in the parts per billion, you would have to be vaping gallons of the stuff to suffer form any ill effects.
Also as smokers did we all research every ingrediant that goes into a cigarette? i certainly didnt, so i am not too pushed over it tbh.

My own Vanilla Custard is just too yummy to abandon over Diacetyl.

Just my opinion guys..

 

[Wingsfan0310]

10ml in a few hours? What are they doing, drinking it? I vape on average 3ml a day. I don't think I could vape 10ml a day, even if I was chain vaping 24 hours straight

Cheers,
Steve

 

[Heabob]

10ml in a few hours? What are they doing, drinking it? I vape on average 3ml a day. I don't think I could vape 10ml a day, even if I was chain vaping 24 hours straight

Cheers,
Steve

I do 10ml per day, at least.

But not to worried about caramels & butterscotch, as for some odd reason my tasters don't get much from them.

Although I am a Custard/Cheesecake hound...

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

10ml in a few hours? What are they doing, drinking it? I vape on average 3ml a day. I don't think I could vape 10ml a day, even if I was chain vaping 24 hours straight

Cheers,
Steve

For those of us who drip & sub-ohm, it's not all that hard .

I used to vape 1-3ml's a day when I was using tanks like the PT and others, though when I started dripping and stuck with it, that pretty much doubled as the resistance dropped.

 

[Wingsfan0310]

I use a KFL+ at around 2ohms. When I started vaping I use to use PT& PT Mini's. Still have them but haven't used them since getting the KFL+. I really like the KFL+, get great flavor using it.

Cheers,
Steve

 

[wllmc]

I put down down 8-10 mls on any given day. chain vape. get mixin and vape faster as HIC says lol

10ml in a few hours? What are they doing, drinking it? I vape on average 3ml a day. I don't think I could vape 10ml a day, even if I was chain vaping 24 hours straight

Cheers,
Steve

 

[Not A One]

TFA states that trace amounts of said chemicals varies from .01% to .10%, so if we split the difference and say that all trace amounts are .05% and we use a flavor with .05% of "Chemical X" (take your pick of Diacetyl, Acetoin or Acetyl Proprionyl) at 5% in 10ml of finished product, the PPB content comes out to ~250 PPB which is 10-50x more than the recommended exposure limits by NIOSH.

No. No, it doesn't come out to that. I'm tired of seeing numbers like this being thrown around. The calculations are never finished, they just go to the ppb in the juice and stop, and there was an error somewhere, I'm guessing with a % conversion since it was by exactly a factor of 100.


I'm going to assume these measurements are all by volume. Even though they're probably realistically by weight or weight/volume, the numbers won't be far off.


To calculate the amount of "hazardous chemical" in 1 mL of your example:


5% of 1 mL is 0.05 ml of flavor in each mL
0.05% of 0.05 ml is 0.000025 ml "hazardous chemical" in each mL
Juice is 0.0025% "hazardous chemical"
0.0025% is 25,000 ppb in the juice.


But you're not vaping 25,000 ppb. Let's finish the math. What I find online has the number of puffs per mL ~120-180. Let's be conservative and say there are a hundred puffs to a mL. According to Wikipedia, the typical volume of an adult human breath is ~500 mL. We'll be further conservative and say an e-cig puff is only 250 mL.


That's 1 mL juice at 25,000 ppb, spread out over 100 breaths, each 250 mL of the air/vapor mixture.


The math works out to 25,000*1/(100*250) = you're actually vaping ~1 ppb at the highest exposure level in this example. Not only is that well below the short-term exposure limit, it's well below the overall recommended exposure limit as well. Averaged out to your actual exposure level over a day, it's an absolutely minuscule amount even by OSHA levels.

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

It does look like my example has an error in it as far as the final calculation, which should actually be 250,000 ppb based on a 10ml bottle using 5% flavoring. It didn't break down by puff though, so I'm glad you posted your example.

Your example is correct, though it doesn't take into consideration other variables, such as air flow & resistance, both of which will reduce or increase the number of puffs per ml significantly. As an example, we'll use the Crown RDA that I'm using right now. It's set to dual 2mm airflow and I'm using a .5 ohm single coil. With this, I can drip about 10-15 drops and burn through them in about 5-8 puffs. So if the average # of drops per ml is ~50 (which is more consistent than the 20 drops of water per ml that most use), that means I can vape through 1ml of e-liquid in as little as 25 puffs.

If I take in the same volume of per puff, albeit, more concentrated, then your math would come out as 25,000*1/(25*250) = 4 pbb for that same 1ml of e-liquid, even though nothing changed other than the delivery device used to inhale the same e-liquid.

 

[Not A One]

It does look like my example has an error in it as far as the final calculation, which should actually be 250,000 ppb based on a 10ml bottle using 5% flavoring.

A 10 mL bottle at 5% flavoring is the same as a 1mL bottle at 5% flavoring is the same as a 1 L bottle at 5% flavoring. They're all 25,000 ppb because ppb is an expression of concentration; the volume doesn't matter unless by 5% for 10 mL you mean something different than that the flavoring makes up 5% of the bottle.

If I take in the same volume of per puff, albeit, more concentrated, then your math would come out as 25,000*1/(25*250) = 4 pbb for that same 1ml of e-liquid, even though nothing changed other than the delivery device used to inhale the same e-liquid.

Yep. All I had to go off off was what I found online, so someone would definitely have to take into account how fast they personally go through e-liquid. But you'll notice that even at your high level of vapor inhalation, you're still below the daily recommended exposure level at your peak concentration. Even if every single breath you take all day is through your device, you're still "safe" by OSHA levels. And if like most people you're not inhaling vapor constantly, your actual daily exposure level is far lower. I'd go so far as to say it's better than a hundred times lower, and your peak concentration is still more than 6 times under the recommended peak concentration levels.

For certain e-liquids these concentrations will undoubtedly jump to unacceptable levels, but I don't like the way people tend to calculate the ppb for "trace" amounts in a bottle, and then compare that directly to the recommended exposure levels, because of course those numbers aren't relevant unless you're actually snorting the liquid.

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

A 10 mL bottle at 5% flavoring is the same as a 1mL bottle at 5% flavoring is the same as a 1 L bottle at 5% flavoring. They're all 25,000 ppb because ppb is an expression of concentration; the volume doesn't matter unless by 5% for 10 mL you mean something different than that the flavoring makes up 5% of the bottle.


Yep. All I had to go off off was what I found online, so someone would definitely have to take into account how fast they personally go through e-liquid. But you'll notice that even at your high level of vapor inhalation, you're still below the daily recommended exposure level at your peak concentration. Even if every single breath you take all day is through your device, you're still "safe" by OSHA levels. And if like most people you're not inhaling vapor constantly, your actual daily exposure level is far lower. I'd go so far as to say it's better than a hundred times lower, and your peak concentration is still more than 6 times under the recommended peak concentration levels.

For certain e-liquids these concentrations will undoubtedly jump to unacceptable levels, but I don't like the way people tend to calculate the ppb for "trace" amounts in a bottle, and then compare that directly to the recommended exposure levels, because of course those numbers aren't relevant unless you're actually snorting the liquid.

I'm not sure I follow on how I'd be under the REL if my vaping style remained as noted above. If I hit 4 ppb with 25 puffs across one hour, that'd be 8 ppb in two hours, which would be 3 ppb over the REL of 5 ppb as per NIOSH. If I've hit 8 ppb in two hours, then technically I'm already over the REL which is based on an eight-hour work day.


As for the calculations, would 250,000 ppb not be correct for 10ml of e-liquid using 5% flavoring?

- 5% of 10ml = .5ml flavoring
- 0.05% of .5ml = 0.00025 = 0.025%
- 0.025% = 250,000 ppb = 250 ppm


Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I don't personally like dealing with the trace amounts either, though considering that's the majority of all we have to go on since we don't have finite reports from other flavor manufacturers, it's the best we have short of performing our own testing which isn't exactly cheap by any means .

 

[Not A One]

I'm not sure I follow on how I'd be under the REL if my vaping style remained as noted above. If I hit 4 ppb with 25 puffs across one hour, that'd be 8 ppb in two hours, which would be 3 ppb over the REL of 5 ppb as per NIOSH. If I've hit 8 ppb in two hours, then technically I'm already over the REL which is based on an eight-hour work day.

Oh, I see. This is something really easy to get tripped up on. Like I said, ppb is a concentration, not a hard amount. Vaping 4 ppb in 1 puff is 4 ppb of exposure for that puff, vaping 4 ppb over 1 hour is 4 ppb exposure for that hour, vaping 4 ppb over 8 hours is 4 ppb exposure for that 8 hours. The recommendations are for the average ppb you get over an 8-hour period (they assume you won't expose yourself beyond that 8 hours for the rest of the day). So you could be inhaling, say, 8 ppb for 4 hours, and then no exposure at all for the next 4 hours, that would be a 4 ppb time-weighted exposure. Or you could be inhaling 8 ppb once every 4 breaths for 8 hours, and that would be a 2 ppb time-weighted exposure.

This is why they also give a recommended limit for short term high exposures, and say you shouldn't be exposed to levels as high as 25 ppb for any longer than 15 minute periods. That way workers or employers won't assume that they can get away with 1000 ppb for a while, as long as they go breathe fresh air for the rest of the day, because acute exposure could still be a hazard.

As for the calculations, would 250,000 ppb not be correct for 10ml of e-liquid using 5% flavoring?

- 5% of 10ml = .5ml flavoring
- 0.05% of .5ml = 0.00025 = 0.025%
- 0.025% = 250,000 ppb = 250 ppm

You just missed the part where you have to divide by the 10 mL to get the percentage. If I had a dime for every time I've done that...

- 5% of 10ml = .5ml flavoring
- 0.05% of .5ml = 0.00025
- 0.00025/10 = 0.000025 = 0.0025%
- 0.0025% = 25,000 ppb = 25 ppm

I wish we could get better numbers on concentrations too. Some of TFA's flavors list diacetyl & co as 1-10%, and that's way too much of a range for me to really decide whether they are tolerable levels or not.

I'll see if I can put together a spreadsheet sometime this week to calculate the actual ppb being vaped based on concentration of chemical(s) in a flavor, concentration of the flavor in the final blend, and how fast someone goes through a mL of liquid. That seems like it could be useful for discussing exposure levels if nothing else.

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

Ah, that's what a lack of sleep will do to you - I knew something had to be off!

I too wish the data was available from more companies, other than just TFA. It's a shame it isn't. I've actually been in touch with a few labs over the past few weeks to see what it would cost to push samples to them for testing and chemical analysis. The basic lab tests that are in the $50-$100 range do not seem to include breakdowns, so you basically get what you get. One lab quoted me nearly $1-5,000 per sample if I needed specifics as to how much of each chemical was present. I'm not sure if they simply misunderstood what I was asking for, or if that's really what the cost of GC/MS testing is at.

I still have a few other labs I need to get in touch with as I've been wanting to just do a bit myself here locally in TN, so I may check with UT or somewhere else locally to see what they would charge, or if they would charge and simply perform the testing for classroom experience.

 

[Not A One]

TFA used to offer GC/MS analysis for a very low price, but it looks like they just knocked it off their website - it was there when I last ordered about a week ago and now it's been replaced by a number to contact them and discuss details.

 

[JohnnyDill]

Find a college chemistry student to do the GC/MS for free at their university.

 

[LoveVanilla]

TFA used to offer GC/MS analysis for a very low price, but it looks like they just knocked it off their website - it was there when I last ordered about a week ago and now it's been replaced by a number to contact them and discuss details.

No! Really? Damn. TFA was my ace in the hole.