The Cessation Claim

[Rickajho]

If switching was only about "the nicotine" then we would have all slapped on a patch and sat there fat and happy in some sort of transdermal nicotine bliss. Obviously that doesn't happen, or the failure rate for conventional NRT wouldn't be so miserable - and we all wouldn't be here either.

While it's true that you have to find your own reason to quit - or you won't - I will never be convinced that the quit rate for cold turkey is ever gonna be 100% - just because you have some sort of internal fortitude that will help you pull that off. If that worked BP wouldn't have put all that money into NRT - and we all wouldn't be here either. vaping can take the Puritanical masochism out of quitting. No sack cloth - and no ashes - required.

We can't replace all that chemical yark that comes out of a cigarette - and there is chemical dependency going on there above and beyond simple nicotine - but we can replace a lot of the ritual. I think there is no doubt that while the nicotine is important the rituals of cigarette fiddling are also replaced with great success. While there are no more lighters and ash trays and packs there are batteries to be charged, equipment to be maintained, stuff that lights up. And INHALING STUFF!!! Ritual is still an important part of the process. Not a lot of ritual going on with a box of Nic-O-Patches. Doesn't translate well on the ritual scale.

I have said it more than once on ECF - vaping isn't some sort of magic wand you can wave at someone and make them quit. Not only does it take some desire to switch, it also takes some fiddling. This is technology. Smoking technology is limited to "a match" and "stuff that burns". Some people can't handle the technology, some people can't be bothered. If you don't have the capacity or the interest in dealing with the technology, well there's a whole clump of people for whom vaping will be a fail.

This is why there is no emphasis on vaping being a cessation method. It can be used to switch completely and a lot of us, myself included, have done that with great success. If you don't want to completely switch there is no rule book telling you that's wrong either. Or even if you want to, but the technology is beyond your abilities then, somewhat sadly, it is not for you.

 

[Oliver]

Rick - On the tech, you're right but I wonder whether you've underplayed the "fiddle factor" a bit. Smokers are used to inconvenience - ash/smell primarily, but for some cigarette papers and rolling tobacco.

I take the view that were it not for these intrinsic fiddle factors, vaping would never have taken off since it requires a good deal of fiddle! There's probably a model you could create relating to "surplus fiddle and mainstream adoption"!

 

[Rickajho]

Rick - On the tech, you're right but I wonder whether you've underplayed the "fiddle factor" a bit. Smokers are used to inconvenience - ash/smell primarily, but for some cigarette papers and rolling tobacco.

I take the view that were it not for these intrinsic fiddle factors, vaping would never have taken off since it requires a good deal of fiddle! There's probably a model you could create relating to "surplus fiddle and mainstream adoption"!

I don't think I underplayed it - I certainly didn't mean to. Even the ACS quit smoking literature makes mention that you might "mourn" the loss of your rituals - when you do it their way and have to resort to chewing on carrot sticks.

An often ignored aspect to all this is that breathing stuff matter. There are so many physiological cues people develop in context of smoking. Some people stress. When they stress they tighten up, their respiration rate changes to practically hyperventilating. The "relax" cue comes into play - "I have to have a cigarette..." and suddenly they are slowing down and taking long, deep drags off that smoke. While in retrospect I find nothing about the chemical play of smoking that should make you feel relaxed - like when your heart rate ramps up - that shift from tiny tight breathing when uptight to those long deep drags is the cue that can make you think "Oh, this makes me feel relaxed."

Try getting that from a patch.

Anyway, breathing. How and when you breathe as a smoker and the cues you get from it. That ritual translates with vaping. No doubt, at least for me, that being able to replace inhaling stuff with inhaling other stuff is why this can and does work well. Licking a patch in a moment of desperation? Not the same thing.

 

[Moaufan]

I, had worked myself up to and was a 3 PAD smoker that had been smoking for 36 years. I, had no intensions or ever tried to quit smoking. I, smoked my last cigarette standing outside the vape shop on December 6, 2013. Not even sneaking a drag from a friend. I, started vaping to appease my Dr. He recommended it. I, figured if it would get him off my back and help the terrible respiratory infection I had been battling for months, Why not? I, never expected it to work but so glad it did.

 

[chopdoc]

If we look at it from an objective view, we can see that countless times everyday new people come to ECF with the same story. They tried vaping and a few days later smoked their last cigarette. If anyone ever took the time to go thru the new guys forum and compiled that information it could be considered as actual data.
Yet how many times have we heard anyone say "I started chewing nic gum and within days I was a non smoker". How about never. And what about the success rate of drugs like chantrix. How many of us have stuck a nicotine patch on and 15 minutes later lit a cigarette. How many billions have been spent by the consumer on approved quit smoking cessation devices and still smoke because they just plain dont work.

To understand why vaping works so well as a quit smoking cessation we only have our own experiences to rely on. A huge part of any addiction is mental. Our minds tell us we have to have it and without it anxiety sets in. With vaping we still have the hand to mouth motion, as well as the blowing smoke effect while still receiving nicotine. In effect we are fooling our sub conscious into believing we are getting the same thing as from a smoke while breaking the hold cigarettes have on us. I believe thats why vaping is as successful a quit smoking cessation as it it.

As have been suggested, our experiences are just our experiences and doesnt mean much. But when our experiences are compiled together with others now it becomes data that cant be denied.

 

[skoony]

If switching was only about "the nicotine" then we would have all slapped on a patch and sat there fat and happy in some sort of transdermal nicotine bliss. Obviously that doesn't happen, or the failure rate for conventional NRT wouldn't be so miserable - and we all wouldn't be here either.

While it's true that you have to find your own reason to quit - or you won't - I will never be convinced that the quit rate for cold turkey is ever gonna be 100% - just because you have some sort of internal fortitude that will help you pull that off. If that worked BP wouldn't have put all that money into NRT - and we all wouldn't be here either. Vaping can take the Puritanical masochism out of quitting. No sack cloth - and no ashes - required.

We can't replace all that chemical yark that comes out of a cigarette - and there is chemical dependency going on there above and beyond simple nicotine - but we can replace a lot of the ritual. I think there is no doubt that while the nicotine is important the rituals of cigarette fiddling are also replaced with great success. While there are no more lighters and ash trays and packs there are batteries to be charged, equipment to be maintained, stuff that lights up. And INHALING STUFF!!! Ritual is still an important part of the process. Not a lot of ritual going on with a box of Nic-O-Patches. Doesn't translate well on the ritual scale.

I have said it more than once on ECF - vaping isn't some sort of magic wand you can wave at someone and make them quit. Not only does it take some desire to switch, it also takes some fiddling. This is technology. Smoking technology is limited to "a match" and "stuff that burns". Some people can't handle the technology, some people can't be bothered. If you don't have the capacity or the interest in dealing with the technology, well there's a whole clump of people for whom vaping will be a fail.

This is why there is no emphasis on vaping being a cessation method. It can be used to switch completely and a lot of us, myself included, have done that with great success. If you don't want to completely switch there is no rule book telling you that's wrong either. Or even if you want to, but the technology is beyond your abilities then, somewhat sadly, it is not for you.

i would like to mention that when it comes to quitting cold turkey one must
remember about 25% of any group that tries any substance will not develop any type of an addiction
to that substance.hence you have casual or so called social users.25% try it once and never use it again
either because it made them ill or did nothing for them.
for long time users very light users PAD or less probably have a better chance with NRT than
say someone a 2 PAD or more.i would also think someone at 2 PAD or more has for lack
of better words a chronic addiction and would likely experience moderate to extreme
withdrawal as compared to light smokers and NRT's would be less effective.
still roughly 25 % can and do quit cold turkey no problem as they never developed an
addiction.usage and time does not appear to be a factor,
the majority i believe of those lucky enough to have quit cold turkey on their own
are not accounted for very accurately as they quit on their own with out a doctors
guidance.(permission?) most studies concentrate on current
smokers trying to quit.this probably skews the results some as many users quit on their own.

regards
mike

 

[Oliver]

And, if you further look at it from an objective view, it seems extraordinary that this data is relegated to the status of anecdotes.

This is data, and it cannot be beyond the wit of man to collect it objectively as primary evidence. I'm reasonably certain it's done in other disciplines, so why not in public health/ regulation policy?

If we look at it from an objective view, we can see that countless times everyday new people come to ECF with the same story. They tried vaping and a few days later smoked their last cigarette. If anyone ever took the time to go thru the new guys forum and compiled that information it could be considered as actual data.
Yet how many times have we heard anyone say "I started chewing nic gum and within days I was a non smoker". How about never. And what about the success rate of drugs like chantrix. How many of us have stuck a nicotine patch on and 15 minutes later lit a cigarette. How many billions have been spent by the consumer on approved quit smoking cessation devices and still smoke because they just plain dont work.

To understand why vaping works so well as a quit smoking cessation we only have our own experiences to rely on. A huge part of any addiction is mental. Our minds tell us we have to have it and without it anxiety sets in. With vaping we still have the hand to mouth motion, as well as the blowing smoke effect while still receiving nicotine. In effect we are fooling our sub conscious into believing we are getting the same thing as from a smoke while breaking the hold cigarettes have on us. I believe thats why vaping is as successful a quit smoking cessation as it it.

As have been suggested, our experiences are just our experiences and doesnt mean much. But when our experiences are compiled together with others now it becomes data that cant be denied.

 

[AndriaD]

It’s just plain insulting to say that if somebody really wanted to quit they could just go cold turkey. There’s hundreds, thousands of people on ECF that have been over-the-moon thrilled that they could finally quit smoking by vaping. A few people can go cold turkey. Fewer people can do it without turning into an ogre. My hat is off to them, they are blessed.

^ That ^ -- I agree 100%, and I really am about tired of all this "If you really want to quit, you can do it cold turkey" -- It's insulting and just plain BS!

Quitting is easy; yes I did quit cold turkey once -- for 3 months. IT'S STAYING QUIT THAT'S THE PROBLEM! Which is where e-cigs really shine -- the NRTs, some of the least effective methods for quitting smoking ever devised -- lots of people QUIT using them -- and 95% of those who do, go back to smoking within 6 months. And everytime you quit and fail, it makes it that much harder the next time you take a notion to try it again. I even found that to be true with e-cigs -- it *was* harder the 2nd time -- but it still worked. Hopefully the universe won't throw anymore caca like a septic appendix at me, so I can stay on my vaping path.

And I agree, I don't really understand the long-term dual users either; for me it's one or the other, and I really don't want it to be cigarettes anymore, so I doubt I'll give in so easily to cravings, no matter how fierce, as easily as I did back in the summer; one or two cigarettes is all it takes for them to sink their hooks back into my brain just as stubbornly as ever. Thank god for WTA!

Andria

 

[Allegry]

I smoked for ~12 years. Between .5 and 1.5 PAD. I tried vaping a couple years ago and it didn't stick. I tried vaping a few months ago and it didn't stick. This time around I just really wanted to quit, vaping just made it easier/tolerable. I work and play around a lot of smokers, and the thought of smoking now makes my stomach turn.

As with any major change in life it's not about the method, nor is it even desire: it's about willingness to do something different until you get a different result.

Edit: As far as the cessation rate on these forums go: I'm not surprised. It's an active community that supports and helps each other - and (nearly?) all of us are coming from dealing with the same issue. Community support, willingness to do something different, and openness to new ideas are principles of addiction recovery in every form. This place provides an awful lot of that.

 

[philoshop]

I know this is probably a general statement about the thread, but I did advocate a tactic, so I'll comment on this.

I want to be clear that I wasn't trying to claim that what is working for me would work for anyone. I just wanted to make sure that anyone who it might work for knew about WTA. I've found ECF threads via Google, so you never know who might find these threads in the long run.

The more tactics for possible success available, the better a person's chances are. All I'm saying is this one thing is working for me, so a person might want to explore it before giving up on vaping. There are other strategies out there as well, and if someone wants to quit, we should all help to inform them so that they're able to try as many of them as possible before they give up on vaping.

My apologies, my friend. That post was not directed at you, but rather as an add-on to DC2's post above mine. Offering options and opinions is what this site is all about.
Making a claim to know the 'best' option for everyone, as some here do, is disingenuous at best.

 

[philoshop]

I think it was George Burns who said, "Quitting cigars is easy, I do it every day..."

 

[Alien Traveler]

Mark Twain: “Giving up smoking is the easiest thing in the world. I know because I've done it thousands of times.”

Edit: I did it at least 10 times.

 

[Racehorse]

And yet, there are plenty of stories around (online) where the heaviest of smokers with zero intention to quit, have quit smoking in less than a week via vaping. Again, that continues to amaze me.

"Intention" can be conscious........ but it can be subconscious as well.

(as we all know how that works in the opposite: people who can't seem to get where they want to in life or relationships and yet insist they really want X, Y, Z and are doing everything at 100% effort to get it, but there are often parts of their subconscious that really don't want it, or there is self-sabbatoging going on, or some belief it won't happen, etc. ). OR....

There's a lot more to it than that, too.

In some there are very physical reasons why achieving certain things, like quitting isn't lickity-split........it is metabolic, or some is neuro (dopamine, seratonin, brain "reward centers", etc.) that don't react the same way to deleting some components in real tobacco, etc. that it would for me.

It is different for everyone I guess.

Again I suggest attacking goals from many directions: physical, psychological, emotional, biological, behavioral, etc.

Willpower alone is not the ticket because it doesn't remove the underlying "desire" a lot of times, rather, it argues with it and sometimes doesn't win. (i.e. a person who feels they are depriving themselves when dieting, who has not reached the stage of truly enjoying eating healthy stuff instead). Willpower will only put them into the "rubber band state"......put a rubber band on your index finger and thumb, pull one direction, pressure increases on one digit.....pulling you back....) you have to not have the rubber band going on at all anymore, otherwise the tension will just continue.

That Tension is only the symptom.....got to get to bottom of why we desire something that is not our buddy, and befriend that which will destroy us, and why not having it creates tension in the 1st place.


I got a lot out of reading Allen Carr's book too, Easy Way.
As well as The Power of Habit: Why We Do What We Do by Charles Duhigg

by the time I bought vape gear my mind was in the right place.

I'm sure people go thru this with dieting as well. Most who succeed have made a major lifestyle change, which also required a HUGE shift in the way they think about things....

Brain science in terms of "habits" has made huge leaps in the last decade. We know so much about how the brain wears patterns and how to re-direct some of those pathways. Much of the newest research (combined with true introspection: "why we do what we do" ) can be set down in guidelines.

I don't believe that just buying another piece of vape gear is going to help everyone, anymore than I believe that not eating cake without a full scale inventory of inner self is going to help an obese person deal with food, or an athlete with real talent perform to olympic greatness.

Vape gear is only a tool. Like a hammer. But it won't build an entire house by itself. Other tools and materials are required.

 

[FlamingoTutu]

I don't think I underplayed it - I certainly didn't mean to. Even the ACS quit smoking literature makes mention that you might "mourn" the loss of your rituals - when you do it their way and have to resort to chewing on carrot sticks.

An often ignored aspect to all this is that breathing stuff matter. There are so many physiological cues people develop in context of smoking. Some people stress. When they stress they tighten up, their respiration rate changes to practically hyperventilating. The "relax" cue comes into play - "I have to have a cigarette..." and suddenly they are slowing down and taking long, deep drags off that smoke. While in retrospect I find nothing about the chemical play of smoking that should make you feel relaxed - like when your heart rate ramps up - that shift from tiny tight breathing when uptight to those long deep drags is the cue that can make you think "Oh, this makes me feel relaxed."

Try getting that from a patch.

Anyway, breathing. How and when you breathe as a smoker and the cues you get from it. That ritual translates with vaping. No doubt, at least for me, that being able to replace inhaling stuff with inhaling other stuff is why this can and does work well. Licking a patch in a moment of desperation? Not the same thing.

The fiddle factor is huge, just watch anybody sitting outside a store, bar, restaurant, etc. smoke a cigarette. What took a while was to understand how important it was to feel something hit the back of the throat on the inhale, kind of the ahhhh moment, and how much I relaxed on the exhale. Didn't get that from gum, patch, pills, hypnosis or even the nic inhaler. Miss that you can't dangle a mod from your lips or hold it between your fingers.

Nice to ee Smokey Joe in here since he has this coming up in a week http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...te-summit-2-nov-13th-2014-a.html#post14373912

Homepage is here http://www.e-cigarette-summit.com/

It ought to be very interesting and informative.

 

[Racehorse]

Rick - On the tech, you're right but I wonder whether you've underplayed the "fiddle factor" a bit. Smokers are used to inconvenience - ash/smell primarily, but for some cigarette papers and rolling tobacco.

I take the view that were it not for these intrinsic fiddle factors, vaping would never have taken off since it requires a good deal of fiddle! There's probably a model you could create relating to "surplus fiddle and mainstream adoption"!

I agree, because that is part of it for ME.......and you, and Rick obviously, and others.

Yet, in last 10 people I tried to convert to vaping, it was the fiddle / ritual factor that SUNK THEM.

Out of 10, at least 4 that I know of, did not succeed w/vaping. There may be 2 others out o that 10 that I have not seen lately, so I don't know. There was one who hated their 1st vape and that was despite trying diff eliquids and nic levels.

So success rate in people I know onland, running at less than 70% success, probably more like 50-60% only.

One of my brothers succeeded......but he only vaped a very short time. It was enough to get him off cigarettes though....now he uses NRT Nicotine Gum in 2mg when he needs it, which is only occassionally.

For him, the lozenge or gum is just more convenient now.

BUT, if anyone asked me, I would say vaping is a godsend......I think it helps more people quit smoking than anything I've seen but that may just be because I am on a vaping forum.

Think about that: Everyone here is ON a vaping forum ......all their anecdotals are from vapers.


To be good science, we have to wait a few years, compare that to how many successful or unsucessful vapers there are in the wild, comparatively, and then compare those %s to successful and unsuccessful quitters using other methods, as well as % of people in support groups, and this forum also provides a support group function.....which may also have some efficacy in the quit rate!

 

[Grimwald]

I was a 40+ year heavy 3 pad smoker. I was actively trying to cut down with lozenges and gum...with some sporadic success. I had a pop-up add about some ecig, can't remember which, and began to research which led me here to ECF. Just on a whim I ordered my first starter kit (cig-sized). I honestly was just hoping it would help me cut down some...never in a million years expected it to help me quit. Four days later, my starter kit arrived. Three more days, I had my last cigarette. That was over 2 years ago.

Two things that I think are important.

1. You need to WANT to quit.

2. If you can quit smoking for a significant period (perhaps 6 months or so), until your sense of taste and smell return, you will no longer like the taste of smoking.

 

[WharfRat1976]

Vaping IS Smoking! Saying vaping helps you quit smoking is another smoker's denial and rationalization. This is so funny.

 

[FlamingoTutu]

Vaping IS Smoking! Saying vaping helps you quit smoking is another smoker's denial and rationalization. This is so funny.

Kudos. Nice troll but since there is no smoke in vaping, your point is moot. It is imitating smoking at best.

 

[WharfRat1976]

Kudos. Nice troll but since there is no smoke in vaping, your point is moot. It is imitating smoking at best.

Imitating Smoking!!!

 

[AndriaD]

this forum also provides a support group function.....which may also have some efficacy in the quit rate!

I learned this very early... my 5th day smoke-free was back in the 1st wk of March, when the forum was down for 2 days... I nearly went out of my mind, and that first day, it too me THREE HOURS to make breakfast, I was so befuddled and unfocused, I couldn't remember what to do next!

Andria