The Diketone Debate: Which Position Do you Take?

[chanelvaps]

Well...as much as I hate to follow the masses no 2 is the only choice for me. Not caring at all is foolish. I am even going to follow the masses so far as to say I am between 1&2. I do not want my grandson to be able to get it. I am damn ...... that I was able to buy cigs with a note from my mom when I was 12.

 

[Mr.Mann]

Well...as much as I hate to follow the masses no 2 is the only choice for me. Not caring at all is foolish. I am even going to follow the masses so far as to say I am between 1&2. I do not want my grandson to be able to get it. I am damn ...... that I was able to buy cigs with a note from my mom when I was 12.

I highly doubt you are following anything but your own god-given judgement!

 

[Sirius]

Well...as much as I hate to follow the masses no 2 is the only choice for me. Not caring at all is foolish. I am even going to follow the masses so far as to say I am between 1&2. I do not want my grandson to be able to get it. I am damn ...... that I was able to buy cigs with a note from my mom when I was 12.

Yes I also am between 1&2 but chose 1 for the sake of future vapers.

 

[Mazinny]

Not going to get into the intricacies of this issue in the OP, though it is wrought with many, but I want to glean as much as I can from votes for specific stances. I hope to get votes from as many posters as possible. I will also run this poll on several other forums to get as much of a picture as possible. So with regard to the inhalation of diketones in eliquid, speak your mind.

If this thread actually gets posts, please, lets keep to the issues. Let's not flame others with different opinions. No attacking vendors. No attacking posters. Only talk about specific vendors that use it if you have proof that they use it.

Vote at the top of the page.​

Know that option #2 will be categorized simply as those that feel disclosure is a must, not just as those that "don't want it" but feel disclosure is a must. It was a mistake on my part to not simply that option, so I apologize for not being more precise with that. For a poll like this, it should be as precise as possible so the voters feel their stance is adequately represented. As it stands now, that option will have to best represent those that do and those that don't personally want it, but feel disclosure is the main point.

Thank you for doing this. I think it is long overdue that vapers have an open and honest discussion on the topic. There have been other threads, but none i have seen that posed the question in this manner, without a point of view expressed in the op.

As far as specific vendors go, Nicoticket juices ( some ) do have acetyl propyniol and there are warnings in the site next to juice description. Better than most vendors, but still not enough. As another poster noted, the amount is important. There might be vapers who would consider vaping a juice with 40 micrograms per ml occasionally, but wouldn't want to go near a juice with 400 micrograms per ml.

Suicide Bunny juice has been tested by at least two outside sources, that showed diacetyl and/or AP in most of the juices. I will look for the links and edit this post when i fin them. S/B denied the reports and posted their own results that showed no diacetyl and much smaller amounts of A P. They then removed the A P results from their facebook page, when people started questioning the discrepancy.

I also want to link to two other vendors efforts in getting diketones out of their products ( i am hoping others would post information about different vendors efforts as well ) :

Mountain Oak Vapors has already tested all their flavors and are in the process of testing each individual finished juice and posting the results on the product description page of the juice. Example :

http://www.mountainoakvapors.com/v/Certs/Coffee and Cream.pdf


And here is another vendors efforts :

Diacetyl Acetyl Propionyl

Video Explaining Our Diacetyl/Acetyl Propionyl Approach.

edit : vaper crew's SB testing :

Latest result are in from the sample the Vapor Crew sent in. They can be found in this Facebook group you will need to join.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/314609708719483/

and from Click Bang testing :

As you may have heard, I sent two Suicide Bunny e-liquids (Sucker Punch and Mother’s Milk) to a lab to test for diacetyl and 2,3-pentanedione (aka acetyl propionyl).

http://www.scribd.com/doc/239973392...-Suicide-Bunny-Sucker-Punch-and-Mother-s-Milk

Dr. Konstantinos Farsalinos, M.D. and Dr. Gene Gillman, PhD. were my guests last night on Click, Bang! (Gene is from Enthalpy Analytical, the lab that ran the tests.)

They explained the results, and told us what the data means as it pertains to vapers.

R

 

[Mr.Mann]

Thank you for doing this. I think it is long overdue that vapers have an open and honest discussion on the topic. There have been other threads, but none i have seen that posed the question in this manner, without a point of view expressed in the op.

As far as specific vendors go, Nicoticket juices ( some ) do have acetyl propyniol and there are warnings in the site next to juice description. Better than most vendors, but still not enough. As another poster noted, the amount is important. There might be vapers who would consider vaping a juice with 40 micrograms per ml occasionally, but wouldn't want to go near a juice with 400 micrograms per ml.

Suicide Bunny juice has been tested by at least two outside sources, that showed diacetyl and/or AP in most of the juices. I will look for the links and edit this post when i fin them. S/B denied the reports and posted their own results that showed no diacetyl and much smaller amounts of A P. They then removed the A P results from their facebook page, when people started questioning the discrepancy.

I also want to link to two other vendors efforts in getting diketones out of their products ( i am hoping others would post information about different vendors efforts as well ) :

Mountain Oak Vapors has already tested all their flavors and are in the process of testing each individual finished juice and posting the results on the product description page of the juice. Example :

http://www.mountainoakvapors.com/v/Certs/Coffee and Cream.pdf


And here is another vendors efforts :

Diacetyl Acetyl Propionyl

Video Explaining Our Diacetyl/Acetyl Propionyl Approach.

Fantastic post! And that's the type of info that should be talked about. One people get to saying what they heard, but not posting links/quotes or facts in general, the thread degrades into its own toxic substance, an something else I would rather not consume! LOL.

Looking at those links now. Right on, Maz, right on!

 

[Sirius]

Thank you for doing this. I think it is long overdue that vapers have an open and honest discussion on the topic. There have been other threads, but none i have seen that posed the question in this manner, without a point of view expressed in the op.

As far as specific vendors go, Nicoticket juices ( some ) do have acetyl propyniol and there are warnings in the site next to juice description. Better than most vendors, but still not enough. As another poster noted, the amount is important. There might be vapers who would consider vaping a juice with 40 micrograms per ml occasionally, but wouldn't want to go near a juice with 400 micrograms per ml.

Suicide Bunny juice has been tested by at least two outside sources, that showed diacetyl and/or AP in most of the juices. I will look for the links and edit this post when i fin them. S/B denied the reports and posted their own results that showed no diacetyl and much smaller amounts of A P. They then removed the A P results from their facebook page, when people started questioning the discrepancy.

I also want to link to two other vendors efforts in getting diketones out of their products ( i am hoping others would post information about different vendors efforts as well ) :

Mountain Oak Vapors has already tested all their flavors and are in the process of testing each individual finished juice and posting the results on the product description page of the juice. Example :

http://www.mountainoakvapors.com/v/Certs/Coffee and Cream.pdf


And here is another vendors efforts :

Diacetyl Acetyl Propionyl

Video Explaining Our Diacetyl/Acetyl Propionyl Approach.

As a community, the vaping community is as close to any religious group I've ever seen. We even have the fanatical and the conservative. Since we are a growing community I feel transparency is a must so we stand up to scrutiny even without the FDA. Yes the evil FDA is our Devil so to speak to some anyway. So is BT and ANTZ. If you think about it, we even have evangelist preaching the good of vaping verses evil cigarettes.

Shouldn't we have facts to back up our claims that vaping IS safer than smoking? I think so. If that means not buying from vendors that fail to disclose well, I've been doing that very thing for some time now. On principal more than anything else. I don't want vendors regulated but those regulations are coming and vendors that are not in it just for the money shouldn't mind really if they are not making e-liquids in their bathrooms. Believe me, in my online searches I've seen some awful photos where e-liquid was being pored from a barrel into a container that was just sitting in the floor of a room. Rebel Vapors or something of that nature was the name.

Do you think someone with that level of cleanliness or should I say lack of... cares what's in their e-liquids?

 

[Sirius]

Gosh..this video is worth posting here alone. Thnx Maz!

 

[AndriaD]

I mentioned finding some stuff online about these chemicals, so I thought I should post the links that I found most informative/useful.

This one is from OSHA, regarding diacetyl and substitutes, acetoin and acetyl propionyl:

https://www.osha.gov/dts/shib/shib10142010.html

The paragraphs on this page that I found most pertinent are these:

Acetoin (acetyl methyl carbinol) is a ketone that has been consistently found during investigations of microwave popcorn manufacturing plants. It has also been used to replace diacetyl in flavorings. NIOSH identified acetoin as a predominant chemical in the production room of a California flavoring manufacturing plant. Airborne concentrations in workers' breathing zones ranged from 0.023 ppm to 0.894 ppm (7). Acetoin was also found in the diacetyl chemical manufacturing facility where four workers developed bronchiolitis obliterans (10). Acetoin is very similar in chemical structure to diacetyl. It is anticipated that some diacetyl may be metabolized to acetoin in humans. The National Toxicology Program is conducting inhalation toxicology studies on acetoin as part of a testing nomination for artificial butter flavoring and its ingredients (27). OSHA does not have a PEL for acetoin but the substance is irritating to the skin, eyes, mucous membranes, and respiratory tract (2).

Health Effects

The initial signs and symptoms of flavoring-related fixed airways obstruction, including bronchiolitis obliterans, may be subtle. The signs and symptoms seen in affected workers include cough, fatigue, and shortness of breath with exertion. Signs and symptoms generally do not improve on weekends or vacations (1, 2). Signs and symptoms may have a gradual onset, but in some cases severe signs and symptoms have occurred suddenly with rapid progression of lung disease (4, 8). Workers may be misdiagnosed with other lung diseases such as asthma or chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (16). Even when diagnosed correctly, workers with flavoring-related fixed airways obstruction, including bronchiolitis obliterans, have not had improved lung function with medical treatment. While a few workers have noticed gradual improvement in their cough several years after removal from flavoring exposure, their pulmonary function generally has not improved and they continue to have shortness of breath with exertion. Some of these workers have developed such severe, disabling lung disease that they have been placed on lung transplant waiting lists (3).

I still need to track down the other info I found, but the above, to me, is the most damning.

Andria

 

[Mr.Mann]

And thanks to a very kind moderator, we now have the #2 that reflects the option that most of us here believe is more fitting. Thanks to that mod.

 

[Mr.Mann]

Gosh..this video is worth posting here alone. Thnx Maz!

I like her -- a lot! LOL

 

[Tangaroav]

Like many others here I was inclined to vote for No.1 but voted No 2 . I felt it ultimately would have the same effect as No 1 since, IMO, few would vape 'dirty' liquids if diketoness free liquids are available.

Btw, AEMSA, AEMSA | American E-Liquid Manufacturing Standards Association, still did not answer Mr,Mann's question on another thread as to whether testing for diketones is mandatory for their members. Lack of answer leaves me perplexed as their website is not clear on the subject.

I hope your survey gains momentum as it is very important and would be a perfect example of self regulation.

 

[Sirius]

I like her -- a lot! LOL

This video is also very interesting Mr. Mann:

 

[hurricanegirl100]

I have little to no idea what the issues are, but I would like to know.

But I'm sitting here, learning fast! Thank you for this thread!
My favorite vendor (ECBlends) is already doing third-party lab tests for diacetyl. Good to know they have my back, even when I didn't know it needed to be protected.

I might get bashed for saying this, but when the FDA speaks to regulating the ecigarette industry, these are the issues they should be looking at. Simply banning flavors because they appeal to kids is too broad, too vague and rightfully (and VEHEMENTLY!!) opposed. But ascertaining which chemicals, when inhaled, are harmful should be something that an independent, governing agency should be looking at. What's harmful? At what levels? Is 25 ppm ok, but 100 ppm of the same ingredient potentially dangerous? What about temperatures? Are some chemicals safe if vaped on something like a 2.4 ohm head at 4.2 volts, but harmful if vaped on an .8 ohm head at 40 watts? What are the best methods for testing? Do some methods generate false positives? Do some flavors start out diacetyl free but develop diacteyl somewhere down the line? If so, why does that happen?

These are questions that the average moyuk out there doesn't know the answers to, doesn't even know how to go about getting those answers. I personally have no faith in any corporate entity (even my beloved e-juice vendors) being responsible for doing its own lab tests. I can also see how legally mandating such tests could put the "little guy" out of business. For this reason, IMHO (Duck! Here come the tomatoes!) the government should be responsible for testing e-liquids for their individual components. It would remove the onerous cost of these lab tests from the little guy and be more objective and reliable. Random testing of various e-juices by a government agency would ensure that, like our meat, (okay, that's a bad example lol..) what we see is what we get.

Excellent thread. Thank you for putting all kinds of new questions into my busy little head!

 

[Mr.Mann]

I have little to no idea what the issues are, but I would like to know.

But I'm sitting here, learning fast! Thank you for this thread!
My favorite vendor (ECBlends) is already doing third-party lab tests for diacetyl. Good to know they have my back, even when I didn't know it needed to be protected.

I might get bashed for saying this, but when the FDA speaks to regulating the ecigarette industry, these are the issues they should be looking at. Simply banning flavors because they appeal to kids is too broad, too vague and rightfully (and VEHEMENTLY!!) opposed. But ascertaining which chemicals, when inhaled, are harmful should be something that an independent, governing agency should be looking at. What's harmful? At what levels? Is 25 ppm ok, but 100 ppm of the same ingredient potentially dangerous? What about temperatures? Are some chemicals safe if vaped on something like a 2.4 ohm head at 4.2 volts, but harmful if vaped on an .8 ohm head at 40 watts? What are the best methods for testing? Do some methods generate false positives? Do some flavors start out diacetyl free but develop diacteyl somewhere down the line? If so, why does that happen?

These are questions that the average moyuk out there doesn't know the answers to, doesn't even know how to go about getting those answers. I personally have no faith in any corporate entity (even my beloved e-juice vendors) being responsible for doing its own lab tests. I can also see how legally mandating such tests could put the "little guy" out of business. For this reason, IMHO (Duck! Here come the tomatoes!) the government should be responsible for testing e-liquids for their individual components. It would remove the onerous cost of these lab tests from the little guy and be more objective and reliable. Random testing of various e-juices by a government agency would ensure that, like our meat, (okay, that's a bad example lol..) what we see is what we get.

Excellent thread. Thank you for putting all kinds of new questions into my busy little head!

No problem. Expect some opposing views, but this thread isn't about flaming each other, it's about stating positions and going on record with a vote.

I voted for it should be mandatorily disclosed. Now, some may feel that automatically necesitates government intervention, but I don't think so. After all, isn't nicotine content mandatorily disclosed? No governing agency regulates that, but no consumer would buy eliquid without it.

 

[Sdh]

I'm for complete disclosure.
I picked: It should be madatorily disclosed to provide the customer with clear options.

 

[Sirius]

No problem. Expect some opposing views, but this thread isn't about flaming each other, it's about stating positions and going on record with a vote.

I voted for it should be mandatorily disclosed. Now, some may feel that automatically necesitates government intervention, but I don't think so. After all, isn't nicotine content mandatorily disclosed? No governing agency regulates that, but no consumer would buy eliquid without it.

I agree..That's one thing most people have come to accept..the government will take care of us. Regulation takes care of nobody. It just complicates things and make it twice or three times more expensive. I'm for a regulation that eliquids must be tested by independent entities..but not by a government lab. This could get quite expensive. No telling what politically inclined lab would get the contract either.
That being said, there are plenty of types of tests as in drug testing of employees. Most can be done with a simple test stick type test. I'm sure in the future we will be able to test our own eliquids.
No matter the source, as long as it's valid imo.

Yes mandatory disclosure and by independent labs or testing facilities.

 

[hurricanegirl100]

Nicotine content is a pretty simple concept. Chemical compositions are not. While you're right, all e-juice vendors disclose their nicotine content, they may be less inclined to reveal the chemical complexities of their juice; not because they're evil or shady, but because they simply don't know.

Nobody does, really. That's why we need some objective experts taking a hard look at it.

 

[hurricanegirl100]

If you support mandatory disclosure but you don't support government regulation, who provides the "mandate" in mandatory?
"Regulation takes care of nobody" Wow. Seriously? I'm getting out of here before my views about conservative Georgians makes me forget my Yankee manners.

 

[Zelphie]

hahahahaha! Can't help but smile. That sounds like exactly the type of internal dialogue I have! I wish a moderator would've amended it. I did my best at the time.

That's perfectly fine! A poll was a great idea, and could provide some good insight. I just think myself stupid...
I wish there was a way to get everyone to take this poll, would still be limited to certain demographics and online, but the greater numbers while keeping in mind the general pool it dipping into, the better.
How to increase traffic here and in other places?

 

[Sirius]

Evaluation of electronic cigarette liquids and vapor.
Dr. Farsalinos Study:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/238345295/Dr-Farsalinos-study-on-diacetyl-in-e-liquid