The final countdown to August 8th - your FDA comments NEEDED

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Megan Kogijiki Ratchford

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What a bunch of wonderful comments I'm seeing here on this thread.
I'm really impressed by the insight shown by many of the newer members of this forum.

It really makes me happy.
:)

Me too! And I'm so happy that informed, intelligent and independent folks have quit smoking and joined the fun! It really is a party of being FREE of cigarettes!
 

CabinetGuyScott

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apathy-quotes-6.jpg

+++++++1

And with 75,000+++ comments we work against:

Alexis De Tocqueville - "Democracy In America", 1840

A network of small, complicated rules. It does not break wills, but softens them. It does not tyrannize, it hinders, represses, stupefies, and finally it reduces each nation to being nothing more than a flock of timid animals, of which the government is the shepherd.
 

Megan Kogijiki Ratchford

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BOOM!!! :headbang:


Here's another one, just posted:

Many people have found vaporizers to be a powerful smoking cessation tool. Those who have switched have lowered their blood pressure, improved respiratory health, dramatically cut their risk of contracting lung cancer, and improved their lifespan. They are no longer a detriment to non-smokers, reeking of stale smoke and ash. People have improved their lives, and what sort of publicity has this gotten? Complete, unwarranted negativity. It seems as though media and local governments have fought fervently to restrict the use and availability of such products. For what reason, I cannot fathom.

There are millions of ex-smokers using these products. Most have tried nicotine gum, nicotine patches, nicotine lozenges and/or nicotine inhalers, all to no avail. Many have also tried hypnotism, cold turkey, counseling and prescription drugs such as Welbutrin and Chantix. I did. None worked.

Smoking causes lung cancer. vaping is a non-carcinogenic alternative to smoking. In effect, vaping prevents lung cancer.

So, imagine there was a low cost cure for cancer developed in, say, Tibet. The medicine must be vaporized and inhaled. And further imagine that public health organizations, funded largely be Big Pharma, proclaimed that there is “insufficient evidence” as to its efficacy and safety, noting that it “may” or “might” or “could” cause long term harm.

Information spreads about the new medicine by word of mouth and social media and increasing numbers of cancer victims start using the medicine. They inhale it in bars, parks, offices and sports arenas. Internet forums spring up with tens of thousands of members, all stating that the drug from Tibet has cured their cancer after all other forms of treatment had failed.

Public health organizations publicly wring their hands, proclaiming that it is not FDA approved, that kids might get their hands on it, drink it and die, even though there is no evidence that this has actually ever occurred. They worry that it could “re-normalize” smoking if cancer victims are seen inhaling the medicine in public.

The press publishes these alarmist pronouncements, writing, “This drug could be harmful to little children. There have been reports of poisonings,” while dismissing the testimonials of tens of thousands of cancer survivors as “mere anecdotes.”

States and municipalities ban public inhalation of the life saving vapor. Henceforth, cancer victims will have to go outdoors to take their medicine, huddled with cigarette smokers like lepers in designated smoking areas, inhaling carcinogenic (supposedly) second hand smoke.

Entrepreneurs spring up, marketing the medicine in different flavors and developing sophisticated delivery devices. Word is spreading and more and more cancer victims are inhaling the medicine. The FDA decides this is intolerable and promulgates regulations requiring that each iteration of the medicine and delivery devices secure pre-marketing approval with elaborate testing and extensive submissions. Public health organizations submit comments campaigning for even more stringent requirements. Inquiries to poison control hotlines (e.g., “I spilled a drop of this on my little girl and an hour later she sneezed. Will she die?”) are reported as “poisonings.” Fear spreads among the populace that the cure may be worse than the disease. Public health organizations proclaim that FDA approved drugs are “proven effective,” whereas the medicine from Tibet is not. The FDA adopts stringent regulations and most of the manufacturers and retailers drop out of the market. Consequently, fewer and fewer cancer victims try the medicine and more and more die.

That's the path you've chosen with your proposed regulations.
 

midficollege

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Smoking causes lung cancer. Vaping is a non-carcinogenic alternative to smoking. In effect, vaping prevents lung cancer.

I don't necessarily like this part of your comment. Everything is mutagenic, and hence everything is carcinogenic. I think it's safe to say that it's *less* carcinogenic than combustible tobacco (Hell, x-rays are probably less mutagenic than combustible tobacco), but you start throwing absolutes around and you'll get stomped. Especially since there are trace amounts of some mutagenic substances in eliquid. Far, far less than are found in cigarettes, but still present.

That's one reason why I focused primarily in my comments on the effects of smoke/tar on my lungs/throat and less on mutagenesis.

Also why I focused on how it affects those around me far less than cigarettes themselves do. I'm taking an informed risk for myself every time I take a pull off my ecig. But, those chemicals that may be harmful still in those smaller amounts for me will be unnoticable if and when standers-by may be exposed.
 

Megan Kogijiki Ratchford

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I don't necessarily like this part of your comment. Everything is mutagenic, and hence everything is carcinogenic. I think it's safe to say that it's *less* carcinogenic than combustible tobacco (Hell, x-rays are probably less mutagenic than combustible tobacco), but you start throwing absolutes around and you'll get stomped. Especially since there are trace amounts of some mutagenic substances in eliquid. Far, far less than are found in cigarettes, but still present.

That's one reason why I focused primarily in my comments on the effects of smoke/tar on my lungs/throat and less on mutagenesis.

Also why I focused on how it affects those around me far less than cigarettes themselves do. I'm taking an informed risk for myself every time I take a pull off my ecig. But, those chemicals that may be harmful still in those smaller amounts for me will be unnoticable if and when standers-by may be exposed.

Very good point. My PCP maintains that the very air in Denver is so bad it equals a half a pack a day in lung damage even if folks aren't smoking or vaping.
 

Megan Kogijiki Ratchford

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Let's at least TRY to keep the politics and ideological ranting out of it down the stretch here. There are LOTS of threads on the board for that. What we're trying to do here is maximize the number of people providing feedback.

And surf-monkey keeps the train on the tracks! Well done sir! :thumb:
 

Surf Monkey

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What the monkey said ^^^^^^^^^^^

:laugh:

Thanks.

In other words, don't worry if your personal opinion doesn't happen to square with someone else's. It's your opinion that counts, whatever it is. If you haven't provided your feedback yet, go for it! It's easy. As I said before, you've invested time and money in your PV setup. Now invest another 5 minutes to help insure a future that includes vaping. Your investment is worth that and it's literally the least you can do.

Only a few hours left!
 

Alexander Mundy

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Leaving a few snippets tonight to help the avalanche:
(These are mainly for public viewing, nothing scientific here)

"In Republics, the great danger is, that the majority may not sufficiently respect the rights of the minority." James Madison

The minority: Smokers and perceived smokers (e-cigarette users).

There has not been a greater breakthrough in harm reduction for cigarette smokers than that experienced with advanced personal vaporizers. If FDA limits these or nicotine containing e-liquid by requiring them to be considered new products it will be devastating since only very large corporations can afford a new product review. FDA will be turning over a growing industry that makes and sells these effective products to huge corporations like Big Tobacco and preserving their interests in the less effective cig-a-like. By doing so FDA would be committing smokers to either continue smoking or dual use and reverting existing personal vaporizers to smoking or the black market which would assuredly arise. This was assuredly not the intent of the Congress that gave FDA the power to regulate tobacco. It is instead a step backwards.

"Delay is preferable to error." Thomas Jefferson

The decisions the FDA (You, to put a human face on it) make regarding this regulation could have the effect of prolonging pain, suffering, and death for smokers and former smokers using personal vaporizers. Lacking the scientific evidence you acknowledge you do not have, you should err on the side of not intervening. To intervene when it is not known if intervention is needed is a fool hearty roll of the dice. I pray that you seek wisdom from God to make your decisions since he will be the ultimate judge of your actions, and that your Soul is at peace regardless of what those decisions are.
 

Alexander Mundy

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"Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it." Adolf Hitler

The lie: Flavoring is there to entice youth.

First lets get this conundrum out of the way; "tobacco" flavor is in and of itself an added flavor to e-cigarettes. Eliminating artificial flavoring from e-cigarettes would eliminate all flavor. Now on to the meat of the matter.

The majority of e-cigarette users prefer non tobacco flavors. This is due to a reflex reaction created in the brain of many to "want" a cigarette when tobacco flavor is used. The brain is subconsciously wanting the MAOI inhibitors and other compounds that bind to receptors in the brain that are present in cigarettes when it is reminded of tobacco flavor. These are not present in an e-cigarette containing only nicotine as the stimulant. Even when e-cigarette use is initiated and smoking is stopped there is a transition time involved while the brain adjusts to not having these compounds. Nicotine along with the actions that mimic smoking can overcome these urges.

Never smokers and a small minority of smokers (those whom are blessed with unknown brain chemistry that will allow them to not get addicted to these compounds) cannot understand the compelling urge the brain will create if all of these binding actions in the brain (including nicotine and the actions that mimic smoking) are stopped. The urge is primeval and subconscious and can and will override the logical thought process.

Gums and patches (which are available on the store shelf and are not restricted to sale to adults only) are not available in "tobacco" flavor, but in flavors such as White Ice Mint, Cinnamon Surge?, and Fruit Chill? and are given the FDA's blessing. The use of non tobacco flavors is acknowledged by the FDA to be helpful in smoking cessation products. Due to Sottera e-cigarette's cannot claim smoking cessation without falling under the FDA's medical arm. (A shame) However the same physical principals are at work regardless of what "category" we call them. The FDA should not throw out the baby with the bathwater and force smokers to endure the additional urges brought about by "tobacco" flavor. It's hard enough to stop smoking as it is. If "tobacco" flavor is forced on e-cigarette users the FDA would be promoting dual use.

I am in total support of bans on sales to minors. Put them under lock and key for all I care, but let adults have access to the flavoring that will benefit them the most. This can and should be done without FDA intervention. E-cigarettes in any form should not be available to youth. And yet the forces that are proclaiming the evil of e-ciagarettes and perpetuating the lie the loudest are also the ones helping to defeat state level bans on sales to minors. The only conclusion that can be drawn is that the hatred of the smoker (and the perceived smoker) is so great among this vocal group they would sacrifice our youth in an attempt to further the cause of total annihilation of the e-cigarette.
 

Alexander Mundy

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I was a cigarette smoker for over 30 years and in the last 10 have tried everything I could find to quit. Gums, patches, lozenges, rubber band, cold turkey with and without support, and prescribed drugs were all ineffective and the longest of them lasted a month. Wellbutrin & Chantix are such a nightmare that I wouldn't wish their effects on my worst enemy. I had to make a decision to stop them if I wanted to live. I resigned myself to the fact I would be a lifelong smoker and have a shortened life instead of taking my own. If anything needs to be taken off the market for smoking cessation it is those 2 drugs!

2 years ago I tried my first e-cigarette. It appeared effective at first, however after a week I had a cigarette. I was a dual user of about 85% e-cigarette and 15% combustibles within a month and continued until 1 year and 7 months ago. By happenstance I met an individual using a 2nd generation Personal Vaporizer. His story was similar to mine, however he was able to completely quit combustibles with the 2nd generation device and gave me an online forum with a multitude of others that had also. I did my research and ordered my first Personal Vaporizer and eliquids. The day I received them was the day I had my last cigarette.

Story over....not quite. I found myself longing for something I couldn't quite put my finger on. Research showed that it was the other chemicals including MAOI inhibitors that I was missing. On the advice of others whom had experience I found out that my longing was triggered by the fake tobacco taste and I should try flavors other than tobacco. I found that fruit and bakery flavors did not trigger this response in my brain and are now what I enjoy with no more longing for a cigarette.In the last year and a half my health has noticeably improved. I no longer get winded from moderate exertion, cough is gone, and my taste has blossomed back. 8 years ago my doctor was mildly concerned about a CAT scan of my lungs. I had a CAT scan recently and my lungs are now clear. I also now understand why others would not like the smell I used to have since I can now smell a smoker.

I did read the entire document several times and it is my opinion that if you are successful at deeming you will devastate the effective 2nd and 3rd generation e-cigarette and hand the industry over to big tobacco and cigalikes that promote dual use. (and maybe 1 or 2 others that will undoubtedly be absorbed by big tobacco) Big tobacco is ecstatic about this monopoly you are going to be giving them. As is big pharma. I noticed that one of the comments made for FDA to allow labeling for long term use of their products was the encroachment of e-cigarettes into their pocketbooks and FDA complied. In my opinion it will be civilly and possibly criminally negligent to allow this handing over of an industry to the very industry that Congress was aiming at when it created the means for you to do so. It is another example of a knee-jerk reaction without scientific evidence. Guilty until proven innocent. The very act of deeming will set back the ability to do the peer reviewed scientific evidence. Do the science first. Speaking of which, how about a comparison of the '09 report stating the levels of substances found to the average street in New York City.

Exploding batteries are a matter for a Food and Drug organization? Does the FCC jump in when cell phone batteries explode? Hardly, they are a handled by the Consumer Product Safety Commission.

With e-cigarettes "tobacco" itself is an added flavor. One that promotes the brain to remember the MAOI inhibitors in cigarettes and want them in many. It is vital that flavors other than tobacco are available for the transition off cigarettes. Don't let the political rhetoric prevail. There is a reason the FDA approved gums and lozenges are not tobacco flavored, but are White Ice Mint, Cinnamon Surge?, Fruit Chill?, FreshMint?, Mint, etc. Hmm, Cinnamon Surge?& Fruit Chill?....Sounds like they are trying to incite children? Not! Millions of big pharma dollars went into those choices. It's because adults enjoy these kind of flavors and are not reminded of a cigarette with them.

I now build my own personal vaporizers and mix my own e-liquid. I have been in electronics all my life and I am now well versed in the safety of batteries. I minored in chemistry and I titrate my e-liquid to test it's nicotine content. I am capable of extracting nicotine if need be, however I have not found that to be necessary yet. So....needless to say I am personally able to continue regardless of regulation.

There are however hundreds of thousands if not millions of others that would either commit to a black market or go back to cigarettes. Why create a black market taxpayers could spend billions fighting? How has that worked out for .........? Money down the drain and states are now legalizing it. More concerning is the countless other smokers that would not have the opportunity I did.
 

Robino1

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"Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it." Adolf Hitler

The lie: Flavoring is there to entice youth.

First lets get this conundrum out of the way; "tobacco" flavor is in and of itself an added flavor to e-cigarettes. Eliminating artificial flavoring from e-cigarettes would eliminate all flavor. Now on to the meat of the matter.

The majority of e-cigarette users prefer non tobacco flavors. This is due to a reflex reaction created in the brain of many to "want" a cigarette when tobacco flavor is used. The brain is subconsciously wanting the MAOI inhibitors and other compounds that bind to receptors in the brain that are present in cigarettes when it is reminded of tobacco flavor. These are not present in an e-cigarette containing only nicotine as the stimulant. Even when e-cigarette use is initiated and smoking is stopped there is a transition time involved while the brain adjusts to not having these compounds. Nicotine along with the actions that mimic smoking can overcome these urges.

Never smokers and a small minority of smokers (those whom are blessed with unknown brain chemistry that will allow them to not get addicted to these compounds) cannot understand the compelling urge the brain will create if all of these binding actions in the brain (including nicotine and the actions that mimic smoking) are stopped. The urge is primeval and subconscious and can and will override the logical thought process.

Gums and patches (which are available on the store shelf and are not restricted to sale to adults only) are not available in "tobacco" flavor, but in flavors such as White Ice Mint, Cinnamon Surge?, and Fruit Chill? and are given the FDA's blessing. The use of non tobacco flavors is acknowledged by the FDA to be helpful in smoking cessation products. Due to Sottera e-cigarette's cannot claim smoking cessation without falling under the FDA's medical arm. (A shame) However the same physical principals are at work regardless of what "category" we call them. The FDA should not throw out the baby with the bathwater and force smokers to endure the additional urges brought about by "tobacco" flavor. It's hard enough to stop smoking as it is. If "tobacco" flavor is forced on e-cigarette users the FDA would be promoting dual use.

I am in total support of bans on sales to minors. Put them under lock and key for all I care, but let adults have access to the flavoring that will benefit them the most. This can and should be done without FDA intervention. E-cigarettes in any form should not be available to youth. And yet the forces that are proclaiming the evil of e-ciagarettes and perpetuating the lie the loudest are also the ones helping to defeat state level bans on sales to minors. The only conclusion that can be drawn is that the hatred of the smoker (and the perceived smoker) is so great among this vocal group they would sacrifice our youth in an attempt to further the cause of total annihilation of the e-cigarette.

^^^ The Absolute Truth ^^^ In particular the part that I marked in bold. Very well done :)
 

inswva

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I usually don't air my laundry but here's my comment:

As a consumer and user of electronic cigarettes and associated products, I am very concerned with any potential regulation of the electronic cigarette industry. Forcing consumers to only use devices available in 2007 and prior is unjust. Not only will unnecessary regulation adversely impact consumers, many small American businesses will suffer.

Many innovations have been made in the electronic cigarette industry in the last few years. No longer are consumers limited to the sub-standard products available in years past. Regulating the devices introduced since 2007 out of existence is short sighted and benefits no one but the big tobacco companies.

After attempting to quit smoking cigarettes through various means, including FDA approved medication, only electronic cigarettes have been effective. Since beginning to use electronic cigarettes I have been tobacco free for 21 days - the longest such period of abstinence in over 20 years.

If the FDA is truly concerned with public health, regulating the industry is counterproductive.I fear that any regulation of the industry will result in many former smokers returning to tobacco use. I also suspect a robust black market would appear to fill the void caused by regulation.For the benefit of consumers and small business, please consider shelving any potential regulations. Public wellness is at stake.
 
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