The final countdown to August 8th - your FDA comments NEEDED

[zoiDman]

When the cigarette corporations started buying into ecigs 18 months or so ago, there was a lot of argument about the pros and cons. Some felt it was a terrible idea, some that is was good. The benefit to us probably looks like an inverted bell curve graph: a good idea at first because in essence it means ecigs can't be banned (no one can beat BT - whatever they want, they get, so if they are in ecigs, then ecigs can't be banned); high on the benefits graph for us, then, at that time.

As they gradually begin to strangle the market with regulations (whatever they want, they get), it starts to become very bad for us. That phase started about 6 months back with Reynolds beginning to introduce State laws to get rid of the independent vape product vendors and the community who back them. It will get a lot worse, as the cigarette corporations work with the FDA to eliminate all their opposition. That's right down at the bottom of the inverted bell curve of the graph representing their cost/benefit to us.

In five or six years, they'll want to improve their products and move from minis into mid-size tank system ecigs of the type most of us use now. This is after all the independents have been put out of business, of course. So, they'll have the FDA allow those models. That will be the start of a returning benefit to us, and the graph will start to move up again. It won't go too high though, as they are a massive hindrance to us now: they will never allow any competition to exist, and in the regulated market they are expert players in, all competition can be eliminated by convenient regulation. In the tobacco and pharmaceuticals markets, all small players are eliminated by regulations brought in to help the big guys.

This is what Infuriates Me about the Coming e-Cigarette/e-Liquid Market.

That BT is Using the FDA as it Vehicle to Shape a Market that Only BT will be Players in. It Isn't about Health. It Isn't about HRT. And It Isn't Capitalism.

It's Government Added Monopoly and Collusion.

 

[aikanae1]

I'm glad you posted this. I was at my local vape store yesterday. I asked the owner about the pending regulations and what it would do to his juice lab. He said he's prepared to pay the price of certification imposed and he only uses the purest ingredients. Of course he said he'd have to raise juice prices, but that's inevitable to begin with.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

I hate to say it, but your vendor is stupid. Show him the OMB Economic Report and ask him where he thinks his "exit" point is? FDA admits that 90% will "exit" the market but they are expecting most to attempt the first level of application fees (yea, a half mill $ down the tube). Comments suggest they are aware that's an under-estimation.

What is he going to sell? I think most large chain convienence stores have non-compete clauses in the leases if they are in a strip mall. That's his competition.

Yea I know I have strong opinions, but this "not gonna hurt me" attitude is stupid. It will hurt.

 

[zoiDman]

I'm hoping that it dawns on the FDA that they have created a real cluster and they table the issue for a few years.
One can hope.

With Regards to Hardware, I think things are going to take a Couple of Years to Sort Out.

But regards to e-Liquids? I think the FDA will act Swiftly and Decisively. Because without e-Liquids, Hardware is Inconsequential.

There is Also the Thought that a Majority may Swing in the Senate. So the FDA may Move on a Limited Set of Regulations First and Very Soon that they feel have No Chance of Being Voted Down.

I Dunno?

 

[aikanae1]

Bill G. said the Chinese factories will not pay to get their products approved by the FDA. They’ll just retool and start making something different.

J.R.

I think he's right. Vaping is not popular in China and it may even be illegal (I read that it was, but can't believe it so I haven't verified it yet). There's always something "we" are spending money on as far as they are concerned. No more Kanger or Ego batteries. No more Aspire or Innokin. No new heads, coils, clearo's of any kind. No cartridges - and IBTanked feels threatened? Yikes. What do stores think they will have to sell?

 

[zoiDman]

BTW - It would be Nice someone Started a Thread on how This Phase of the FDA Rules Process will be Carried Out.

I am Not Entirely Clear on exactly how the FDA gets Congressional Approval on Rules? And I am Sure I am Not the Only One.

 

[tA71ana]

All the smokers and vapers using BT products should stock up and then, en masse, not buy one single solitary BT product in the US for a VERY long time (would be great if it worked overseas too) and crash their business.
It takes time and money to retool tobacco fields.
I know I'm dreaming but what the heck...
The problem is trying to get enormous numbers of people (millions/billions) to do anything en masse is pretty much impossible.

 

[rolygate]

Yes...I just get the feeling that BT is opening a can of worms here with all manner of unintended consequences wiggling out.

There are no unintended consequences in the tobacco or pharma markets: everything is done to eliminate small players. The industry doesn't want fast, agile players taking their market share, and given a choice between dealing with 50 large corporations and 5,000 small businesses, the regulators will also go for dealing with the 50. The regulators aren't there to enable small businesses to grow large: they are there to prevent small business affecting industry (it's called regulatory capture).

And of course they are not there to protect the public or anything as ridiculous as that.

 

[tA71ana]

There are no unintended consequences in the tobacco or pharma markets: everything is done to eliminate small players. The industry doesn't want fast, agile players taking their market share, and given a choice between dealing with 50 large corporations and 5,000 small businesses, the regulators will also go for dealing with the 50. The regulators aren't there to enable small businesses to grow large: they are there to prevent small business affecting industry (it's called regulatory capture).

And of course they are not there to protect the public or anything as ridiculous as that.

Yes ...I believe what you say to be a true statement.
Too bad we don't have a population as sociopathic en masse as our large businesses are.
We might actually get what we want too

 

[aikanae1]

I think the Act says that the FDA can not ban or eliminate a tobacco "category" like ecigs. I think an agreement was made for tobacco to buy placeholder ecig companies because the FDA figured it would be better to work with one or two of them than with us. That way the FDA wasn't banning the entire category. Reading the GlaxoSmithKline response, they are extremely nervous about ecigs and really want the FDA to do something NOW.

When the cigarette corporations started buying into ecigs 18 months or so ago, there was a lot of argument about the pros and cons. Some felt it was a terrible idea, some that is was good. The benefit to us probably looks like an inverted bell curve graph: a good idea at first because in essence it means ecigs can't be banned (no one can beat BT - whatever they want, they get, so if they are in ecigs, then ecigs can't be banned); high on the benefits graph for us, then, at that time.

As they gradually begin to strangle the market with regulations (whatever they want, they get), it starts to become very bad for us. That phase started about 6 months back with Reynolds beginning to introduce State laws to get rid of the independent vape product vendors and the community who back them. It will get a lot worse, as the cigarette corporations work with the FDA to eliminate all their opposition. That's right down at the bottom of the inverted bell curve of the graph representing their cost/benefit to us.

In five or six years, they'll want to improve their products and move from minis into mid-size tank system ecigs of the type most of us use now. This is after all the independents have been put out of business, of course. So, they'll have the FDA allow those models. That will be the start of a returning benefit to us, and the graph will start to move up again. It won't go too high though, as they are a massive hindrance to us now: they will never allow any competition to exist, and in the regulated market they are expert players in, all competition can be eliminated by convenient regulation. In the tobacco and pharmaceuticals markets, all small players are eliminated by regulations brought in to help the big guys.

 

[aikanae1]

All the smokers and vapers using BT products should stock up and then, en masse, not buy one single solitary BT product in the US for a VERY long time (would be great if it worked overseas too) and crash their business.
It takes time and money to retool tobacco fields.
I know I'm dreaming but what the heck...
The problem is trying to get enormous numbers of people (millions/billions) to do anything en masse is pretty much impossible.

BT product sales have been flat or fallen. They haven't made a penny on them. You can read explainations in transcripts of shareholder meetings online and WSJ reports on this frequently. That's the only reason "BV" was even recognized for the first time 6 months ago. Before that, all of our stuff that we use and buy were rolled into what BT was reporting for sales = we didn't exist outside of BT.

"We" were invisible. Even now any media report is still likely to show a cigalike - CASAA is a front group (astroturf) for BT and probably in some circles we are "sheeple on koolaid". That's the way the ALA, AHA, AMA and a whole host of public health agencies view us. The Senate Dems investigation only looked at BT - they have NO idea "we" exist. Most state and city officals have no idea "we" exist.

That worked in the beginning because we were able to develop a community and products without oversite and no one knew we were here. That might have continued a little longer if BT hadn't entered. But as soon as sales figures began to be reported - oh boy, that's when sheet hit the fan. There is no such thing as a billion dollar industry that goes unregulated. An econ major pointed out to me that even in Wikipedia that's a "grey market" - basically "illegal" (layman's terms) to have. (democracy is an economic term too)

Up until then, b&m's were far and few between. It takes a couple of years to show up in digestable format. The FDA regulations were written before those figures were known - but they should be strolling in now and .... well, I don't think anyone's bothered to look them up. Probably another indication the FDA doesn't want to know squat about what we use, how we use them, what size the market is or even who is using them (like kids) beyond "saving face". The die is cast. "Nicotine is a drug" and the only arguement is who is entitled to profit from the sale of nicotine.

"We" are the minions in the middle of 2 goliath industries battling it out and neither one care if we get trombled to death in the process. Meanwhile, as long as we have this identity crisis of letting anyone get away with aligning us with tobacco companies, no one will remember we even existed.

The fact that a huge share of sales are off record and never counted, no accounting of how many products, eliquids or total sales of anything anywhere unrelated to BT is keeping us invisible to the business community and lawmakers. That era we could benefit from that has ended.

Not a lot has changed - help everyone you can who smokes into vaping while they till have the opportunity, then sign them up for CASAA. Sign nonsmokers up for CASAA and explain how they benefit from vaping (it's greener and enviromentally friendly). Membership numbers count.

Besides if the FDA does mess with ecigs, they'll have a hard time explaining the rise in smoking rates.

 

[aikanae1]

There is also an International trade issue here and I wish I was privy to the crowd noise going on there.
I wonder what manufacturers such as Innokin, Joyetech,Sigelei, KSD and the like are doing to insure that their massive business is not affected or impeded.
they are making BIG money from this industry.
Not only that, I would imagine that if BT wants to get into the ecig biz they are going to have to import their batts.
Not a good idea to upset people who will quite possibly be your source for hardware.

I think there's a little more to int'l trade agreements than meets the eye. What exactly I'm not sure nor do I understand what I have read. I know tobacco is in the TPP, and that somehow foriegn manufacturers can sue gov'ts for interferring. Australia went through an expensive suit for it's packaging labels and someone else did. How that does or doesn't apply here????? IDK.

 

[rbrylawski]

I hate to say it, but your vendor is stupid. Show him the OMB Economic Report and ask him where he thinks his "exit" point is? FDA admits that 90% will "exit" the market but they are expecting most to attempt the first level of application fees (yea, a half mill $ down the tube). Comments suggest they are aware that's an under-estimation.

What is he going to sell? I think most large chain convienence stores have non-compete clauses in the leases if they are in a strip mall. That's his competition.

Yea I know I have strong opinions, but this "not gonna hurt me" attitude is stupid. It will hurt.

I don't have a clue what you just said?????

 

[Megan Kogijiki Ratchford]

LOL...I was thinking about that but didn't want to say anything

Oh it's on my mind through all of this as Colorado just made that something legal...

 

[VBdev]

When I search regulations.gov for my tracking number I get

Comment Tracking Number Match
This comment was received in Regulations.gov but is not yet posted. Please contact the agency directly for more information.

What's the deal with that? Am I getting dinged for trying for more than 5 minutes? It was submitted as a pdf as it was over the 5000 character limit.

 

[zoiDman]

When I search regulations.gov for my tracking number I get


What's the deal with that? Am I getting dinged for trying for more than 5 minutes? It was submitted as a pdf as it was over the 5000 character limit.

When did you make your Submission?

 

[VBdev]

When did you make your Submission?

It was in on time. Yesterday about 130/1330. aka 8/8/2014 1:30pm EST

 

[Katya]

When I search regulations.gov for my tracking number I get


What's the deal with that? Am I getting dinged for trying for more than 5 minutes? It was submitted as a pdf as it was over the 5000 character limit.

It is my understanding that attached files do not show on the site--at least not right away. If you received that green "success" button at the time of submission, you're fine.

 

[VBdev]

It is my understanding that attached files do not show on the site--at least not right away. If you received that green "success" button at the time of submission, you're fine.

I got success on the upload, green success on the submission with a tracking number, and an ack email. Perhaps trouble makers like me are contributing to some of the disparities in comment counts though.

 

[Katya]

I got success on the upload, green success on the submission with a tracking number, and an ack email. Perhaps trouble makers like me are contributing to some of the disparities in comment counts though.

You're fine. The count has obviously not been updated yet.

There must be at least 100K comments from cigar smokers. And 259 comments from Glantz alone.

 

[zoiDman]

It was in on time. Yesterday about 130/1330. aka 8/8/2014 1:30pm EST

It Wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't Posted until Monday.