The fruitcakes at ASH Strike again...

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Krakkan

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I just wish people would quit addressing the PP issue. All it does is get OCD suppliers to call up PP which has undeniable damaging consequences.

I am not trying to stir up hysteria just amazes me the lengths ignorant people will go through afraid of things they don't understand or don't want to understand. Its like putting a TV in front of a caveman he would smash it to pieces just to get rid of the little people inside lol. This organization is using E-cigs to make a name for their pathetic money begging group quite a joke really.
 

jen28f

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I didn't doubt ASH were the ones to call and tell PayPal that they should stop allowing folks to sell E-cigs.

PayPal Warned About E-Cigarette Legal Liability / / Facebook Bans Ads; Now ...... is in E-Cigarettes

So we can sue ASH if we go back to tobacco and get lung cancer, right? This guy is absolutely nuts. He needs a good therapist along with anger management.
I think someone should start marketing a dihydrogen monoxide liquid. Really give them something to complain about! :mad:
 

Our House

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"In addition to these known dangers, there are many other potential dangers which have not yet been evaluated by the FDA, and which may be even more serious. These include possible contamination, smokers who otherwise would quit instead remaining addicted to nicotine"

Jeezus freaking Christmas, is this serious?? He's actually asserting that all these smokers were just about ready to quit, but then ecigs came along and swept them into nicotine addiction??? Wow!
 

Krakkan

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A post someone added about our buddy at ASH

Report Abuse Bill Hannegan August 7, 2009 12:59AM CST


A cancer epidemiologist, who conducted the largest secondhand smoke study ever done, the UCLA Study, completed "too late" to be included Surgeon General Carmona's 2006 report, wrote a letter, at the request of Keep St. Louis Free, to the St. Louis County Council, that ended with these two paragraphs:"I should say that, personally, I feel strongly that non-smokers should not have to be exposed to cigarette smoke. While the available evidence does not suggest that average exposure to environmental tobacco smoke is an important cause of heart disease or lung cancer in people who do not smoke, cigarette smoke is irritating, can trigger allergic reactions in some people, and can exacerbate asthma and other chronic respiratory conditions. Yet, since the available evidence suggests that the effects of environmental tobacco smoke, particularly for coronary heart disease, are considerably smaller than generally believed, lawmakers may therefore have greater latitude than generally believed to consider the segregation of smokers and nonsmokers and the use of air filtration as adequate and responsible ways to address the health concerns of ETS in workplaces such as bars and restaurants. If it is possible, through segregation of smokers and nonsmokers and the use of air filtration, to reduce all components of environmental tobacco smoke in establishments where smoking is permitted to the level of the air in non-smoking establishments, there is reason to believe that any risk would be undetectable."









THE AIR ACCORDING TO OSHA

Though repetition has little to do with "the truth," we're repeatedly told that there's "no safe level of exposure to secondhand smoke."

OSHA begs to differ.

OSHA has established PELs (Permissible Exposure Levels) for all the measurable chemicals, including the 40 alleged carcinogens, in secondhand smoke. PELs are levels of exposure for an 8-hour workday from which, according to OSHA, no harm will result.

Of course the idea of "thousands of chemicals" can itself sound spooky. Perhaps it would help to note that coffee contains over 1000 chemicals, 19 of which are known to be rat carcinogens.
-"Rodent Carcinogens: Setting Priorities" Gold Et Al., Science, 258: 261-65 (1992)

There. Feel better?

As for secondhand smoke in the air, OSHA has stated outright that:

"Field studies of environmental tobacco smoke indicate that under normal conditions, the components in tobacco smoke are diluted below existing Permissible Exposure Levels (PELS.) as referenced in the Air Contaminant Standard (29 CFR 1910.1000)...It would be very rare to find a workplace with so much smoking that any individual PEL would be exceeded."
-Letter From Greg Watchman, Acting Sec'y, OSHA, To Leroy J Pletten, PHD, July 8, 1997

Indeed it would.

Independent health researchers have done the chemistry and the math to prove how very very rare that would be.

As you're about to see in a moment.

In 1999, comments were solicited by the government from an independent Public and Health Policy Research group, Littlewood & Fennel of Austin, Tx, on the subject of secondhand smoke.

Using EPA figures on the emissions per cigarette of everything measurable in secondhand smoke, they compared them to OSHA's PELs.

The following excerpt and chart are directly from their report and their Washington testimony:

CALCULATING THE NON-EXISTENT RISKS OF ETS

"We have taken the substances for which measurements have actually been obtained--very few, of course, because it's difficult to even find these chemicals in diffuse and diluted ETS.

"We posit a sealed, unventilated enclosure that is 20 feet square with a 9 foot ceiling clearance.

"Taking the figures for ETS yields per cigarette directly from the EPA, we calculated the number of cigarettes that would be required to reach the lowest published "danger" threshold for each of these substances. The results are actually quite amusing. In fact, it is difficult to imagine a situation where these threshold limits could be realized.

"Our chart (Table 1) illustrates each of these substances, but let me report some notable examples.

"For Benzo[a]pyrene, 222,000 cigarettes would be required to reach the lowest published "danger" threshold.

"For Acetone, 118,000 cigarettes would be required.

"Toluene would require 50,000 packs of simultaneously smoldering cigarettes.

"At the lower end of the scale-- in the case of Acetaldehyde or Hydrazine, more than 14,000 smokers would need to light up simultaneously in our little room to reach the threshold at which they might begin to pose a danger.

"For Hydroquinone, "only" 1250 cigarettes are required. Perhaps we could post a notice limiting this 20-foot square room to 300 rather tightly-packed people smoking no more than 62 packs per hour?

"Of course the moment we introduce real world factors to the room -- a door, an open window or two, or a healthy level of mechanical air exchange (remember, the room we've been talking about is sealed) achieving these levels becomes even more implausible.

"It becomes increasingly clear to us that ETS is a political, rather than scientific, scapegoat."

Chart (Table 1)

-"Toxic Toxicology" Littlewood & Fennel

Coming at OSHA from quite a different angle is litigator (and how!) John Banzhaf, founder and president of Action on Smoking and Health (ASH).

Banzhaf is on record as wanting to remove healthy children from intact homes if one of their family smokes. He also favors national smoking bans both indoors and out throughout America, and has litigation kits for sale on how to get your landlord to evict your smoking neighbors.

Banzhaf originally wanted OSHA to ban smoking in all American workplaces.

It's not even that OSHA wasn't happy to play along; it's just that--darn it -- they couldn't find the real-world science to make it credible.

So Banzhaf sued them. Suing federal agencies to get them to do what you want is, alas, a new trick in the political deck of cards. But OSHA, at least apparently, hung tough.

In response to Banzhaf's law suit they said the best they could do would be to set some official standards for permissible levels of smoking in the workplace.

Scaring Banzhaf, and Glantz and the rest of them to death.

Permissible levels? No, no. That would mean that OSHA, officially, said that smoking was permitted. That in fact, there were levels (hard to exceed, as we hope we've already shown) that were generally safe.

This so frightened Banzhaf that he dropped the case. Here are excerpts from his press release:

"ASH has agreed to dismiss its lawsuit against OSHA...to avoid serious harm to the non-smokers rights movement from adverse action OSHA had threatened to take if forced by the suit to do it....developing some hypothetical [ASH's characterization] measurement of smoke pollution that might be a better remedy than prohibiting smoking....[T]his could seriously hurt efforts to pass non-smokers' rights legislation at the state and local level...

Another major threat was that, if the agency were forced by ASH's suit to promulgate a rule regulating workplace smoking, [it] would be likely to pass a weak one.... This weak rule in turn could preempt future and possibly even existing non-smokers rights laws-- a risk no one was willing to take.

As a result of ASH's dismissal of the suit, OSHA will now withdraw its rule-making proceedings but will do so without using any of the damaging [to Anti activists] language they had threatened to include."
-ASH Nixes OSHA Suit To Prevent Harm To Movement

Looking on the bright side, Banzhaf concludes:

"We might now be even more successful in persuading states and localities to ban smoking on their own, once they no longer have OSHA rule-making to hide behind."

Once again, the Anti-Smoking Movement reveals that it's true motive is basically Prohibition (stopping smokers from smoking; making them "social outcasts") --not "safe air."

And the attitude seems to be, as Stanton Glantz says, if the science doesn't "help" you, don't do the science.
 

jimik

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Banzhaf is inadvertently promoting the idea of e-cigs. As he continues to push out ridiculous ideas more people are going to become aware of the hypocrisy surrounding ASH and there will be a lot more coverage.

This man is already hated by a lot of people, they are itching to find a reason to tear him down. His attempts of trying to get a ban on a safer alternative to tobacco, as well as a product that has a high turn out rate for quitting tobacco will not go unnoticed.
 

Magestorm

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They use BIG SCARY words, and some people are buying it.

1. PG is considered safe by the FDA. While it is used in antifreeze, it is used in situations where toxic antifreeze would not be acceptable, such as RV water tanks and pipes, food prep areas, and areas where people or animals could possibly ingest it.
2.PG IS ALSO found in Asthma inhalers, sno cones, and most foods
3. PG is also found in many food flavorings

So, MR ASH, if it's soooooo dangerous, then WHY is it in our food and medicines? WHY is it ok to sell this for fog machines where people can breath it in? Hmmmmm?

What an idiot. Get your nose OUT of our lives, and get a real job!
 

Our House

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Also, look at the verbiage used throughout the article (emphasis mine):

"e-cigarettes pose a wide variety of potential dangers to users"

"Thus, in addition to possible legal liability"

"PayPal might well be named as a defendant should an e-cigarette user or a family member claim that some medical problem was caused or exacerbated by an e-cigarette illegally sold with PayPal’s assistance"

"'This illustrates just one additional potential danger of permitting businesses to decide for themselves to offer drug-delivery devices to the public without any FDA review or approval,' says public interest law professor John Banzhaf"

"Banzhaf's scheduled appearance on NBC-TV Nightly News was a major factor in prompting the FDA to report that e-cigarettes contained detectable levels of known carcinogens and toxic chemicals to which users could potentially be exposed."

"In addition to these known dangers, there are many other potential dangers which have not yet been evaluated by the FDA, and which may be even more serious. These include possible contamination, smokers who otherwise would quit instead remaining addicted to nicotine, the deadly danger nicotine inhalation can pose for people with risk factors for heart attacks, the propensity of inhaled nicotine to sustain or even trigger an addiction, the worry that youngsters will use e-cigarettes as "training wheels" on the way towards cigarette smoking, and the potential risks to those around e-cigarette users -- including infants and young children, the elderly, those with existing medical problems, etc. -- who will be exposed to the exhaled vapors containing nicotine and propylene glycol."

"'Companies which facilitate the sale of a product determined by the FDA to be "illegal," and which has such a large number of known and potential health dangers, should either discontinue their support or be prepared to face the legal consequences,' warns Prof. Banzhaf."


NO EVIDENCE AT ALL, JUST MERE SPECULATION AND SPOOKY LANGUAGE!!

With all the possible, potentials that could maybe happen, this guy's got PayPal and a ton of non-smoking antis all chasing ghosts. It's utterly ridiculous. This guy's a top attorney? I'd love to see him back up 90% of what he just claimed. (Well, maybe he can, because all of those dangers will always remain "possibilities" :rolleyes:)
 

Duckies

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This was written by Banzhaf himself in shameless self-promotion (see the very end of the article for credits and author contact information). He is hinting that Paypal is closing people down because he told them to, and ironically his "reference" to Facebook is this very forum. LOL!

I'll believe people are 'obeying' his threats when I see it from a neutral media outlet.
 

sherid

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ASH promoted exactly the same threat of lawsuits to business owners who continue to allow smoking where there are smoking bans. It's his signature piece. Banzhaff uses PR Insider as a testing ground for new, ever more draconian smoking/vaping laws as well as new lawsuits against the food industry and of course alcohol. That's where the term 3rd hand smoke first appeared. He does not care if there is any truth. He cares only if people might buy into it before he proceeds.
 

surbitonPete

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Anti smokers only really hated the 'smell' of tobacco but that just wasn't enough to get it banned from anywhere......so they all jumped with glee onto the bandwaggon of supporting the idea of second hand smoking being dangerous to their health. The comical part is that they even say it is even 'more' dangerous to their health than it is to the person smoking!!.. Yet sadly if you keep on saying something enough times everyone starts to believe it's true and science and reason become irrelevant. The great thing is that most of the 'reasonable' anti smokers won't really care about vaping if they can't smell it and certainly won't buy into the idea of second hand vape being dangerous.
 
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TropicalBob

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Jan 13, 2008
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The pity, to me, is that ASH should be our ally.

If e-cigarettes are demonstrably healthier than tobacco counterparts, as we all believe they are, then ASH should promote e-cig use, not oppose it. But have you ever seen sloppier marketing than that done for e-cigs? Did anyone think to approach influential health organizations, show the e-cig, explain its benefits, ask for cooperation in helping addicted smokers move to a safer alternative?

Apparently not. To our chagrin now.

It doesn't take the FDA to shut down expansion or continuation of e-smoking. All that is needed is to shut down payment and delivery systems. Can't buy, can't take delivery. Go play with your mods. We can see the start of that de facto ban happening right now.

I take this as yet another blow to any hope that e-smoking will stick around.
 
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