The inconvenient truth about "The myth of nicotine"

[a2dcovert]

This will be the beginning of a new thread containing the facts and myths of NRT's. The purpose of this thread is to assist members who, like many others, have discovered that the nicotine delivered by the e-cigarette is not the full cure for tobacco addiction.

Hopefully this thread will cover mostly facts and testimony about the alternatives that when used with the e-cigarette offer help in keeping the users off of smoking tobacco. There has been a lot of effort by several people over the previous months in developing what works and what doesn't.

Here is a quote from DVap to help kick it off:

"The myth of nicotine". Simply, the misplaced belief that nicotine is the be-all, end-all of tobacco addiction/tobacco satisfaction.

We don't become addicted to nicotine, we become addicted to tobacco.

Tobacco can be both an addiction and a treatment.

E-liquid containing only nicotine is missing much of what is present in tobacco that calms and relaxes. The importance of the missing tobacco components varies by individual, some don't miss them, others miss them terribly.

Producing a less processed e-liquid containing more of the tobacco components is a prohibitively difficult and technical process for the average person.

Swedish snus appears to be the "magic bullet" for many. While not "safe" in absolute terms, it delivers the spectrum of components that e-liquid can't, while providing a not too difficult to argue harm-reduction versus cigarettes.

 

[Spiker]

I have always thought that one of the more relaxing aspects of smoking was the controlled breathing. It is a known relaxation technique, but smoking is the only time most people ever intentionally control their breath. I think that is one reason why patches and gums have failed so many people, and why vaping works so well (at least for me). Also, the familiarity of repetative action is comforting, the ritual of smoking is relaxing to me, and vaping also fills that need that patches and such do not. The last thing that vaping can address, and patches do not, is 'triggers', those cues that make you pull out a smoke, like the phone ringing, ordering a drink, finishing a meal, etc.

At least that has been my take on the deal!

 

[spivey]

I was under the impression the the missing component was the MOAI chemical reaction induced by tobacco. Just nicotine doesn't trigger it, but there's another chemical in there that when used in combination with the nicotine is what causes the "high".

 

[Brewster 59]

This will be the beginning of a new thread containing the facts and myths of NRT's. The purpose of this thread is to assist members who, like many others, have discovered that the nicotine delivered by the e-cigarette is not the full cure for tobacco addiction.

Hopefully this thread will cover mostly facts and testimony about the alternatives that when used with the e-cigarette offer help in keeping the users off of smoking tobacco. There has been a lot of effort by several people over the previous months in developing what works and what doesn't.

Here is a quote from DVap to help kick it off:

Ohhh my my, Ohhh hell yes, smoking addiction, snus can address!

I think this is going to be a great thread and possibly help those of us eni doesnt get it done for. Only prob how do you follow Dvap? Dvap pretty much explains the whole deal and is a hard act to follow.

 

[a2dcovert]

I have always thought that one of the more relaxing aspects of smoking was the controlled breathing. It is a known relaxation technique, but smoking is the only time most people ever intentionally control their breath. I think that is one reason why patches and gums have failed so many people, and why vaping works so well (at least for me). Also, the familiarity of repetative action is comforting, the ritual of smoking is relaxing to me, and vaping also fills that need that patches and such do not. The last thing that vaping can address, and patches do not, is 'triggers', those cues that make you pull out a smoke, like the phone ringing, ordering a drink, finishing a meal, etc.

At least that has been my take on the deal!

Triggers come from habit. Habits can be "re-trained" and forgotten. What a lot of us have discovered is just as DVap has said. The addiction of burning tobacco provides us more than just nicotine.

Those who have been 100% successful with quitting entirely due to the e-cig are very fortunate. This is not the case for me and many others. And thus, the purpose of this thread.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

I have always thought that one of the more relaxing aspects of smoking was the controlled breathing. It is a known relaxation technique, but smoking is the only time most people ever intentionally control their breath.

I respectfully disagree, Spiker. Controlled breathing does relax as the blood is oxygenated. With smoking, blood is not oxygenated, but filled with carbon monoxide. Also, while the habit of ritual is important to most of us and the continuation of that ritual has been key to many staying off smokes, the "inconvenient truth" is that for still many others, the nicotine and the ritual isn't enough. The psychoactive ingredients are still needed to keep some from clinical depression. This is one reason why some fail with NRT's, ecigs and become suicidal with Chantix.

 

[Spiker]

Please understand that I did not mean that those are the only answers to the problem, only parts of the puzzle that I have not seen mentioned much. I know nothing about the chemical and biological aspects, but had noticed that what I mentioned were what stuck out to me. I have no doubt that there is much more involved, only wanted to point out some of what I see as missing pieces.

 

[Brewster 59]

Please understand that I did not mean that those are the only answers to the problem, only parts of the puzzle that I have not seen mentioned much. I know nothing about the chemical and biological aspects, but had noticed that what I mentioned were what stuck out to me. I have no doubt that there is much more involved, only wanted to point out some of what I see as missing pieces.

Relaxation breathing and trigger stratagies work for many and were both taught in the smoking cess class I took. Unfortantley they didnt work for me but that doesn't mean they aren't valid techs for others.

 

[martha1014]

it did take some time to quit cigarettes. I think for a while you still crave them and at those times I would smoke one. Then as time went by I smoked less and less. Then it got to the point when I would smoke that cigarette it made be ill, coughing and nauseated. Anytime you get a negative response from an action you will associate that with the ill feeling and stop doing it. So now if I think about a cigarette I get this sickening feeling and will not smoke one.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Please understand that I did not mean that those are the only answers to the problem, only parts of the puzzle that I have not seen mentioned much. I know nothing about the chemical and biological aspects, but had noticed that what I mentioned were what stuck out to me. I have no doubt that there is much more involved, only wanted to point out some of what I see as missing pieces.

Sorry if I made you feel your post was left field. It was a good post and I'm glad it was one of the first. I just wanted to take the opportunity to point out some facts that many aren't aware of. Sometimes I tend to be excitable .

 

[Stubby]

Please understand that I did not mean that those are the only answers to the problem, only parts of the puzzle that I have not seen mentioned much. I know nothing about the chemical and biological aspects, but had noticed that what I mentioned were what stuck out to me. I have no doubt that there is much more involved, only wanted to point out some of what I see as missing pieces.

I would suggest reading the first 25 pages of the original thread

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/nicotine/44958-so-we-getting-we-not-nicotine.html

Also DVap's blog

E-Cigarette Forum - DVap

This should give you the basic idea of what's going on. My guess is that the oral fixation thing may be important for some, for many others it's the whole tobacco alkaloids that we really need. Cigarettes are just the most common way of getting it, hence we've built up a kind of ritual and fixation with the method. That's a habit part, but not the addiction.

For many people (but not all), once we start getting the addiction part taken care of with other reduced harm tobacco products the habit part of smoking becomes secondary. It still may be a nice diversion but the need is greatly or in some cases completely gone.

I had the thought that vaping, because it so closely mimics smoking can be a two edged sword. On the one hand it may help people get off cigarettes because it so closely mimics the ritual. But for those that are not getting what they need from the purified type nicotine in e-cigs, some where down the road it becomes very easy to slip back into smoking. From a ritual standpoint there is little difference. For those of us that need the missing pieces of tobacco not found in e-liquid it's not a good situation.

Martha: You should also read the above links. Good information to know even if your one of those that don't need whole tobacco alkaloids.

 

[DVap]

I don't mind being quoted, but I do want to say that the whole issue of nicotine versus tobacco is of such complexity that the discussion does lend itself to some hand-waving and broad assumptions. A researcher with an unbiased agenda could surely poke holes in some of my more specific speculations, but my overarching assertion remains:

For whatever reason, set of reasons, or different reasons for different individuals, the following appears to be reasonably arguable:

1. The active ingredient of tobacco is not nicotine, it is tobacco. This is simply an assertion that tobacco addiction, while having an element of nicotine addiction, does not equate to nicotine addiction. Tobacco contains active ingredients other than nicotine, that while present in lesser concentrations, may act independent of nicotine and/or potentiate the effects of nicotine.

2. For many, nicotine alone does not act as an ideal replacement for tobacco. Look at the multi-billion dollar NRT market enjoyed by the pharmaceutical companies peddling gums, patches, lozenges, inhalers, etc, and one might come to suspect the NRT market to be a dirty little scam perpetrated on us by pharma companies more than happy to pocket billions while actually helping very few.

3. For some, tobacco has potent antidepressant/anti-anxiety effects. The question might arise, "Might tobacco addiction for some actually represent effective self-medication for depression/anxiety not adequately treated by the surfeit of pills currently on the market?" In other words, do some folks get hooked on tobacco because the alternative is anxiety and/or depression? One might wonder how many folks out there had a terrible time with pills, felt terrible, took up tobacco, and found themselves feeling better for it (obvious health repercussions aside).

4. While it makes sense, healthwise, for those who can quit tobacco or tobacco derivatives (nicotine, for example) to do so, we know that there are those who simply cannot quit. While there are those in the anti-tobacco movement who would deny folks the ability to find a less harmful form of tobacco (painting the whole spectrum of tobacco products/replacements with the same broad brush), those who cannot quit tobacco and are concerned about reducing harm have no use for these busybodies. If an individual simply cannot quit tobacco, then finding the least harmful form of tobacco that they can live with makes sense. The whole thought process might flowchart like this:

-Am I addicted to tobacco (or need tobacco to feel "normal")?

1) If no, don't start. If yes, can I quit? 2) If yes, quit. If no, does vaping work for me? 3) If yes, vape. If no, does snus, dissolvables, etc work for me? 4) If yes, use snus, dissolvables, etc. If no, bad situation, stuck on cigarettes.

Of course, if one wishes to improve their lot, by all means they should try. In my case, I've been on and off of cigarettes for the past 30 years. Currently, I've been off cigarettes for 4 months and on e-cigs. I wouldn't mind dropping the e-cigs entirely and getting back into top condition like I was for several years. If I do drop the e-cigs entirely and find myself slipping back after a time, I would hope to slip back to e-cigs and not slip all the way back to smoking tobacco.

 

[Spiker]

No offense taken, Twisted! Just trying to be clear, and wanted to put my $0.02 in, but thanks for being kind!

 

[olderthandirt]

I'd expect several distillations of DVaps blogs and posts would be good seed material for this thread.

There is some error in thinking that the use of electronic cigarettes is a "one size fits all" methodology.

Plenty of folks can stop the use of inhaled combusted tobacco with the use of a PV. There are more than enough that don't quite make it with that route that the following should be allowed consideration and merit.

Copied from a the blog entry http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-know-about-vaping-vs-analogs.html#comment788 by DVap

"On one of the threads, I divided smokers/vapers into four basic groups based on two theoretical criteria: 1) predisposition to nicotine addiction, and 2) predisposition to tobacco MAOI addiction.

Group 1: low predisposition to nicotine addiction, low predisposition to tobacco MAOI addiction.

Group 2: high predisposition to nicotine addiction, low predisposition to tobacco MAOI addiction.

Group 3: high predisposition to nicotine addiction, high predisposition to tobacco MAOI addiction.

Group 4: low predisposition to nicotine addiction, high predisposition to tobacco MAOI addiction.

Modeling on these these four groups:

We can expect group 1 to do fine vaping modest eliquid nicotine concentrations.

We can expect group 2 to do fine vaping higher eliquid nicotine concentrations.

We can expect group 3 to find vaping alone unsatisying. Supplementing vaping with some good strong Swedish snus, not that pale imitation Camel stuff, will likely calm these folks right down.

We can expect group 4 to find vaping alone unsatisfying. Supplementing vaping with some moderate strength Swedish snus, again not that pale imitation Camel stuff, should calm these folks right down."

I've tried a variety of atomizer/voltage/liquid combos and I am firmly within Group 4.

 

[BadState]

I was reading a thread in the forums about making tobacco flavored eliquid by effectively steeping either snus packets or other forms of tobacco in glycerin or PG, with or without added nic. I wonder if that kind of preparation would include the missing MAOIs/alkaloids to satisfy those who need them. Can anyone who has tried it speak to that? Was the addition of real tobacco components a better substitute for analogs than normal eliquid?

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

I was reading a thread in the forums about making tobacco flavored eliquid by effectively steeping either snus packets or other forms of tobacco in glycerin or PG, with or without added nic. I wonder if that kind of preparation would include the missing MAOIs/alkaloids to satisfy those who need them. Can anyone who has tried it speak to that? Was the addition of real tobacco components a better substitute for analogs than normal eliquid?

So far, in trial and error, it appears best results for flavor is from soaking in PG, the VG is just too thick. As to the alkaloid content, many attempts have been made by Tropical Bob and others using various base liquids and nothing has shown promise. The snus easily gives up its goods orally but, that seems to be the only effective way. The best thing so far is using Swedish snus as intended and suppliment with vaping. Better and more relaxing than smoking ever was for me .

 

[bestthingever]

I think Spiker's comment regarding controlled breathing was right on the money, at least as one aspect of the calming effect of an analog.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

k.....not see post #6?