The Meaning of "Boutique" juice and what you all are missing.
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As Soignee pointed out many factors play a role in how we perceive taste. Fancy packaging and labeling do have an effect on some people. There is a real emotional payoff when you think you are consuming a quality product. There have been many studies done on this subject as well as some hilarious episodes on Penn and Teller's " Bull..... ". I saw an episode of 20/20 when the so called most sophisticated Vodka drinkers failed miserably in picking out their favorite ( and in their mind objectively superior ) vodka in blind taste tests. In fact, a bottom shelf vodka was chosen as second best. But the results in general were considered completely random.
Whether or not there are objective scientific ways to determine " quality " ingredients in an e-liquid, ultimately all that matters is what you like. If someone absolutely loves the taste of a Big Mac and it's special sauce, and prefers it to a kobe beef burger cooked expertly by a renowned chef , i think their choice is just as valid as anyone else.
There are a huge number of people who love the creamy, rich mouth feel of juices that have diacetyl and/or acetyl propionyl as an ingredient for example, in some so called gourmet juices. I can only deal with it for a short period. Neither preference is more valid. What you like is what you like.
There are a small group of people who are super tasters though, and are especially sensitive to the bitter taste. These people can't tolerate dark chocolate, and are super picky in their choice of coffee and beer for example, and oddly enough tend to avoid cigarette smoking, so i would guess that the percentage is lower in vapers than the general public.
Could super tasters be especially picky in their choice of pg/vg/nic base ? quite possibly. but my guess is that the vast majority of vapers could not reliably chose a so called "quality" base in a blind taste test.
Whether or not there are objective scientific ways to determine " quality " ingredients in an e-liquid, ultimately all that matters is what you like. If someone absolutely loves the taste of a Big Mac and it's special sauce, and prefers it to a kobe beef burger cooked expertly by a renowned chef , i think their choice is just as valid as anyone else.
There are a huge number of people who love the creamy, rich mouth feel of juices that have diacetyl and/or acetyl propionyl as an ingredient for example, in some so called gourmet juices. I can only deal with it for a short period. Neither preference is more valid. What you like is what you like.
There are a small group of people who are super tasters though, and are especially sensitive to the bitter taste. These people can't tolerate dark chocolate, and are super picky in their choice of coffee and beer for example, and oddly enough tend to avoid cigarette smoking, so i would guess that the percentage is lower in vapers than the general public.
Could super tasters be especially picky in their choice of pg/vg/nic base ? quite possibly. but my guess is that the vast majority of vapers could not reliably chose a so called "quality" base in a blind taste test.
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I've been following along (as best I can) and I keep thinking of the Wine Taster. The expert in his field, he can tell you where the grapes came from, how the body is, notes he picks up in the bouquet, how acidic it is, if there's too many tannins, how it balances on the tongue, etc. etc. etc. He can recommend the finest red wine to me, of course it will be expensive, but it will be worth it because he is a Wine Taster and he really knows his stuff. I may even like it.
That being said, I still love Barefoot Wines "Sweet Red". It's about $9 for a big bottle. It even has a cork!
If someone reviewed a juice as superior because they can tell that the vegetable glycerin was in fact derived from soy as opposed to palm, the nicotine is 99.998% pure and was extracted from the leaves of a tobacco plant that was specially cross bred in Cuba and hand-cultivated in the hills above a small town in Greece, the water is from a secret mountain spring cut through marble somewhere in Italy that has been untouched for over 4000 years, the flavorings were handmade by Pietr's Romanian grandmother (who learned it from her grandmother) in her high-tech, vacuum sterilized kitchen and derived from the pesticide-free fruit and flower garden she still tends herself on her 47 acres of pristine land... and they know this because they can taste it. They're Eliquid Experts.
I'd think, 'Cool! But does it taste like peanut butter and bananas?'
That being said, I still love Barefoot Wines "Sweet Red". It's about $9 for a big bottle. It even has a cork!
If someone reviewed a juice as superior because they can tell that the vegetable glycerin was in fact derived from soy as opposed to palm, the nicotine is 99.998% pure and was extracted from the leaves of a tobacco plant that was specially cross bred in Cuba and hand-cultivated in the hills above a small town in Greece, the water is from a secret mountain spring cut through marble somewhere in Italy that has been untouched for over 4000 years, the flavorings were handmade by Pietr's Romanian grandmother (who learned it from her grandmother) in her high-tech, vacuum sterilized kitchen and derived from the pesticide-free fruit and flower garden she still tends herself on her 47 acres of pristine land... and they know this because they can taste it. They're Eliquid Experts.
I'd think, 'Cool! But does it taste like peanut butter and bananas?'
There is actually a thread on here about super taster vapers. They do seem to have a really hard time finding elquids. I am very fortunate not to be a super taster as some have palates so sensitive that even black pepper bothers them. I love hot food, bitter food, sour foods, sound like no fun being a super taster.
I am a sensitive taster (not done the test to see if super or not, nor got the t-shirt), so I do find it hard to find any juices that are not tainted by the taste of something that displeases my taste buds.
The problem (as it see it) is that more often than not the juices are created by non-supertasters, which (as I have said before) is fine for those with similar tasting capabilities, but they will not detect the nuances that superior tasters will find unappealing.
A lot of vendors fall at the first hurdle, which is in the job of masking the flavours of the PG, VG and nicotine base, which will mean that the resultant juice will be either plasticy, soapy or peppery or a delightful combo of all three.
Cuttwood's Unicorn milk was a good example of this for me, every vape reminded me of the results of an early foray into the world of swearing (my sisters washed my mouth out with soap & water).
Nicoticket's juices have also been problematic for me, I really wanted to love them too, but I found that any juice that contained their special vanilla was ruined by the strong taste of 'pencil shavings' (possibly caused by Mexican vanilla beans??).
The problem (as it see it) is that more often than not the juices are created by non-supertasters, which (as I have said before) is fine for those with similar tasting capabilities, but they will not detect the nuances that superior tasters will find unappealing.
A lot of vendors fall at the first hurdle, which is in the job of masking the flavours of the PG, VG and nicotine base, which will mean that the resultant juice will be either plasticy, soapy or peppery or a delightful combo of all three.
Cuttwood's Unicorn milk was a good example of this for me, every vape reminded me of the results of an early foray into the world of swearing (my sisters washed my mouth out with soap & water).
Nicoticket's juices have also been problematic for me, I really wanted to love them too, but I found that any juice that contained their special vanilla was ruined by the strong taste of 'pencil shavings' (possibly caused by Mexican vanilla beans??).
I like simple. If I like it, then it's a boutique juice. If I don't then it's a drain rinser.
Wood esters are an ingredient in artificial vanilla.
Mexican vanilla is actually Tonka Bean which is banned in the US due to it containing coumarin, although not dangerous at low levels, it is thanks to a drug company that markets Coumadin(sp?) that it is banned.
Most of the vanilla flavorings I've tasted have been pretty bad, as have the coffees and the chocolates. Creams are completely blech to me as is cinnamon in elquid. Bakery flavors freak me out, I don't want to vape cheesecake, that just seems so unappealing. The idea of what would have to be in a tiny bottle to create liquid that sort of tastes like apple pie is off putting.
Maybe I love Maha Ras so much because I can't pull out any specific taste? Ok, I can, but I won't mention them, lol. It is just so much more than the sum of it's parts. Who knows.
Mexican vanilla is actually Tonka Bean which is banned in the US due to it containing coumarin, although not dangerous at low levels, it is thanks to a drug company that markets Coumadin(sp?) that it is banned.
Most of the vanilla flavorings I've tasted have been pretty bad, as have the coffees and the chocolates. Creams are completely blech to me as is cinnamon in elquid. Bakery flavors freak me out, I don't want to vape cheesecake, that just seems so unappealing. The idea of what would have to be in a tiny bottle to create liquid that sort of tastes like apple pie is off putting.
Maybe I love Maha Ras so much because I can't pull out any specific taste? Ok, I can, but I won't mention them, lol. It is just so much more than the sum of it's parts. Who knows.
Very interesting. (no sarcasm)
Weird that Nicoticket juices taste so strongly of pencil shavings for me despite them using their own extract (maybe plus artificial flavour too).
Totally agree on the coffee, cream and chocolate flavour observations. Trey Trey (Vapor Las Vegas) is the only chocolate based flavour that I like, but it is white chocolate (with vanilla + raspberry).
I am going to get some DIY supplies this month because I am fed up of paying through the nose for cat's piss in a fancy bottle.
*I am not including Nicoticket in the cat's p thing btw*
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Reb,
I completely get what you are driving at. I'll admit that I am not one of the pickiest vapors. I go more for throat hit than anything, which is one reason why I started vaping unflavored nic, granted there are some flavors I still buy. But only a select few. I guess the market will bear what people are willing to pay, If these so called Boutique juices sales plummeted, they would lower the price. Many people have told me "you have to try this juice, it is outstanding"! Yeah, well, I don't think so....people pay thousands for picasso's, I would'nt give you a dollar for something that looks like a 5th grader painted it, It is just personal taste as we find in many facets of life. Btw, I think honeysuckle sounds pretty cool!
I completely get what you are driving at. I'll admit that I am not one of the pickiest vapors. I go more for throat hit than anything, which is one reason why I started vaping unflavored nic, granted there are some flavors I still buy. But only a select few. I guess the market will bear what people are willing to pay, If these so called Boutique juices sales plummeted, they would lower the price. Many people have told me "you have to try this juice, it is outstanding"! Yeah, well, I don't think so....people pay thousands for picasso's, I would'nt give you a dollar for something that looks like a 5th grader painted it, It is just personal taste as we find in many facets of life. Btw, I think honeysuckle sounds pretty cool!
I was talking about the flavor of wormwood, wherever it comes from. In Ahlusion's Blue Fairy e-liquid, (Vlad makes his own concentrate, and creates 80% of his own flavorings) you can actually taste the wormwood.
Sorry, but that's nonsense.
Most of the bitterness is taken out when distilled.
The other flavors are not there to mask the flavors of wormwood, as wormwood imparts it's own flavors to make absinthe taste the way it does.
The effects? Such as hallucinations? An old wives tale.
Since you don't seem to believe me when I say it, I googled it for you
Absinthe FAQ - AbsintheClassics.com
"Despite popular opinion, due mostly to erroneous assumptions about wormwood, absinthe, when properly distilled, is not extremely bitter. Wormwood, whose extract used to be a popular ingredient in many perfumes, actually has a strong floral & herbal flavor (and scent) that is heightened when extracted by proper distillation, which leaves behind almost all of the bitter absinthins. So yes, there is some necessary bitterness in good absinthe, but it is a balanced herbal undertone, and not overpowering in the slightest. Nor should the anise overwhelm, as it sometimes does particularly when badiane rather than green anise is used.
A good absinthe should be cool and refreshing, with a complex herbal and floral character reminiscent of an Alpine meadow, and with no one herb predominating on the nose or palette."
Frequently Asked Questions About Absinthe
"Depending on the variety, the flavor of genuine absinthe is primarily that of aniseed and fennel enhanced with the subtle, meadow-like herbal bitterness of the wormwood. It's not as bitter as its reputation suggests, and proper absinthe never has been, as can be attested by those who have tasted surviving bottles of vintage pre-ban absinthe."
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071006090540AAL6Ymd
"Despite popular opinion, due mostly to erroneous assumptions about wormwood, absinthe, when properly distilled, is not extremely
bitter."
Absinthe: a special drink! - FAQ
"There are a lot of different types of absinthe, and you can easily feel overwhelmed by the broad range of choices. However, to be considered an absinthe, all these spirits must fulfill the following criteria:
• To be refreshing.
• To remind you of the smell of an Alpine field by revealing complex, floral and spicy notes.
• To taste well balanced, so that all the herbal flavours seduce both your palate and your nose.
• To taste bitter, but then again, not too much*
• To have the flavour of aniseed, yet not overpower other scents (this is what an excessive use of star anise instead of green anise can cause)**
* A lot of people believe that grand wormwood has a very strong bitter taste. However, when it's distilled, most of the bitter parts are lost, because they're allocated in the stem which isn't used for distillation. This is why in the end, only the pleasant flavours of grand wormwood are revealed, leaving a very aromatic bitterness, and a quite strong floral taste."
Does absinthe really cause hallucinations? - HowStuffWorks
"The chemical that's taken all the. blame for absinthe's hallucinogenic reputation is called thujone, which is a component of wormwood. In very high doses, thujone can be toxic. It is a GABA (Gamma-aminobutyric acid) inhibitor, meaning it blocks GABA receptors in the brain, which can cause convulsions if you ingest enough of it. It occurs naturally in many foods, but never in doses high enough to hurt you. And there's not enough thujone in absinthe to hurt you, either. By the end of the distillation process, there is very little thujone left in the product. Modern science has estimated that a person drinking absinthe would die from alcohol poisoning long before he or she were affected by the thujone. And there is no evidence at all that thujone can cause hallucinations, even in high doses."
You may know a lot about flavorings, but, and no offense, you don't know much about absinthe.
When distilled properly,not extremely bitter, when distilled less successfully? I'm guessing bitter.
To taste bitter, but not too much.
The herbal bitterness of wormwood.
Wormwood oil contains the chemical thujone, which excites the central nervous system. However, it can also cause seizures and other adverse effects.
Lol, no offense, but you're now it seems you're just trying to argue. You presented evidence that contradicts your own point.
To taste bitter, but not too much.
The herbal bitterness of wormwood.
Wormwood oil contains the chemical thujone, which excites the central nervous system. However, it can also cause seizures and other adverse effects.
Lol, no offense, but you're now it seems you're just trying to argue. You presented evidence that contradicts your own point.
Not to take anything away from the conversation, But maybe 30 + years of smoking have dulled my senses, You people must have the nose of a bloodhound to pick out every single flavor in a juice!
Ha jaba62, i smoked for about 30 years, it comes back.
How dare you sidetrack our pointless bickering!
How dare you sidetrack our pointless bickering!
You should read the articles I've linked to, or do some research, then you'll be able to comprehend it better.
"By the end of the distillation process, there is very little thujone left in the product. Modern science has estimated that a person drinking absinthe would die from alcohol poisoning long before he or she were affected by the thujone. And there is no evidence at all that thujone can cause hallucinations, even in high doses."
I guess you missed that part.
Not being argumentative, just presenting some facts. Not contradictive at all if you understand how absinthe is made.
I understand that your not going to admit that you're wrong, and that's fine. My reason for responding was to clarify your misconceptions to the people reading this thread.
Bickering,maybe. Pointless,no. I learned more than ever about absinthe. Definitely some interesting insights!
Absolutely, I like the DIY absinthe that I currently make, but the discussion has given me some ideas for adding some more complexity to it, perhaps improve it, although I hesitate to fool with my proven recipe.
I am so glad someone else feels this way, too! I just posted something to this extent on another thread, but you worded it much better. My two year journey into Vapeland has turned up more fool's gold than real gold, and much of it from going by what's popular at the moment. I think it's silly to pay a big price for ejuice made from the same ingredients as fairly priced eliquid. I've wasted so much money on so called gourmet ejuice only to find it unvapable.
We have to be careful not to become snobs who think inexpensive eliquid couldn't possibly be as good.
I'll be the first one to admit that Mt.BakerVapor has some flavors that I find awful, but some of their flavors are delicious. I always tell people to go with the flavors labeled as best-selling. I'll put MBV's Cinnamon Bun up against ANYONES. I can buy three times as much for the same price.
Part of the appeal of vaping is saving all that money wasted on tobacco; it is for me. I think many of these Gourmet, Boutique lines are just price gouging. An online company has little overhead, and their prices should reflect that. But I'm seeing online vendors who charge more than in a B&M store, and that's not right!
Nicoticket is a vendor that I love; Clark is a talented mixologist, and it shows. I've ordered about 10 different flavors from Nicoticket, and there was only 1 I didn't love. I don't mind paying them a bit more than MBV charges, because it's obvious they care about consistent quality. I'm not spending $30 for 30ml anymore, unless it can be justified by the vendor!
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Absinthe was banned for almost a century; the Absinthe brands made in the US are limited to the amount of thujone allowed, because it does have an intoxicating effect. I've researched absinthe, and it's use is partly responsible for the wonderful age of art in Paris. I doubt eliquid contains thujone, but if it creates the louche then there's thujone there
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