The Meaning of "Boutique" juice and what you all are missing.

[Lisa66]

Food coloring in e-liquid is nothing more than a gimmick and completely unnecessary. Why anyone would want to vape ingredients that don't need to be there is beyond me. Maybe some people don't mind vendors throwing in unnecessary things into their e-liquid, but I do.




Mad Murdock's Pluid is by no stretch of the imagination an absinthe flavored e-liquid.

True - it's definitely anise-flavored juice.

Um, Coldrake, Pluid is absolutely an absinthe juice.

I have to respectfully disagree. Although absinthe has anise in it, that's not all - and the other flavors in absinthe make in distinctly different than just anise. The Czech Republic is big on absinthe..... I tasted many versions there, some of them the color of Pluid (avoid them!). The best ones are very pale in color and although they do contain anise, that is definitely not the dominant flavor. The other flavor sources are equally intense but it's clear that anise is not the only thing you're tasting. Pluid just has the anise taste.

Sorry to derail, couldn't help myself.

 

[rebgold]

True absinthe is flavored mainly with green anise, fennel and wormwood through a distillation process that creates the bright green color from the chlorophyll extracted from the herbs.
MMR first created Pluid as an absinthe DIY.

 

[Coldrake]

Um, Coldrake, Pluid is absolutely an absinthe juice.

1. There is no detectible wormwood, hyssop, or the other herbal and floral notes that are present in absinthe.
2. There is no bitterness.
3. The anise flavor is too overpowering.
4. There can be some lemon flavor from the melissa in absinthe, but not the citrus that is present in Pluid.
5. There are other flavors there that don't belong.
6. The favor is much too strong undiluted.

I've tried about a half dozen different "absinthe" favored e-liquids and none taste like absinthe. Ahlusion's Blue Fairy is the closest that I've found.

I've only been drinking absinthe for about 6 years and have only tried 14 different absinthes, (mostly French and Swiss), but I know enough that Mad Murdock's Pluid is not it.

No offense to Mad Murdock, but if he intended Pluid to be an absinthe flavor, he missed the mark.

 

[DoubleEwe]

5 Pawns is a boutique juice company no doubt ... however, they are not the only mix masters. They happen to make their own flavouring, which really is just the same flavouring that any DIY can buy ... however, 5P has just developed their own so as to keep their juices unique to their brand.

what truly makes a juice boutique? ... when it tastes and vapes awesome to a large following of vapers ... no matter who came up with the recipe using any mix of TFA, FA, INA, etc.

If the juice tastes awesome ... consider it boutique

I am a bit confused by this post regarding the Five Pawns bit, you seem to state that both 'they make their own flavouring' and that it is just the same as the 'flavouring that any DIY can buy' and then another '5P has just developed their own'. What are you stating?

If you are saying they make their own flavourings then I think you have been misled, I have checked up on this (as I thought it might justify their prices) and it appears that they don't make their own, they just source them from the US (mostly California area). Which is nothing remotely special.

If you are saying they are the same as most other vendors, then yes, I agree.

I have to admit that I was massively disappointed when I tried Grandmaster & Gambit, disappointed in both the taste and with my own gullibility.
Fair play to them for marketing their product so well though, I am sure they get a lot of people buying once from them.
I see them as the 'Cristal' of the e-juice world, more of a status symbol than something for the actual connoisseur...

 

[chanelvaps]

Yeees..it was an interesting thread for a minute and then it resembled a plug for MM. I lost interest.

A lot of detours, perhaps because of the way you framed your op. What started out as valid observations on price and perceived quality of juice, and the lack of standard reviewing terminology, turned into a thinly veiled plug for Mad Murdoch juice. You started out by stating that there are objective ways of judging the quality of juice and segued into declaring Mad Murdoch as one of the only expensive juices worth the price. A non sequitur if you will. You sorta undermined your own argument.

For the record i never tried Mad Murdoch, not because it seems gimmicky, but because the flavor profiles don't appeal to me. To me food coloring is a variable that can easily be avoided, and i like to eliminate as many as possible, just in case they turn out to be harmful, not that there is any hard data one way or the other. Cost benefit analysis of sorts. The cost of avoiding Mad Murdoch is less than minimal to me. For you, it might not be. Subjective.

 

[WillyZee]

I have to admit that I was massively disappointed when I tried Grandmaster & Gambit, disappointed in both the taste and with my own gullibility.
Fair play to them for marketing their product so well though, I am sure they get a lot of people buying once from them.
I see them as the 'Cristal' of the e-juice world, more of a status symbol than something for the actual connoisseur...

I never knew 5P bought the flavouring ... So it seems to be the nic base alone that sets them apart.

You are proof that taste is very subjective ... what you find disappointing, I find to be amongst the cleanest tastiest juice ever ... you judge it as juice that many people would order only once ... I see 5P juice as totally worth reordering (Gambit is one of the only liquids I've ever reordered).

IMO, most vendor juice starts with bad tasting nicotine base ... 5 Pawns just has a cleaner taste than other eJuice.


Sent via iPhone

 

[skoony]

Thank you Rebgold!

I have only read through the first couple pages of this thread but whenever someone makes a distinction that calls out a lot of people it will always rub them the wrong way no matter how sincere and true the statement is. It is great the Rebgold is bringing attention to the difference between companies that use 'flavoring' and companies that use true ingredient extract. My position is that just because flavoring is used does not mean its of low quality. It just means if you put enough time in you can reproduce the same juice. The companies that use true ingredient extract have a upper hand because their juices require the creator to extract flavors from real life foods or beverages, which is much harder to replicate.

Phillip Grand Reserve Creme de la creme uses hazel nuts, coffee and ages in old brandy barrels to make his juice. Try to replicate that with diy flavoring and you will be off. A few companies that use real ingredient extract that I enjoy are Vapercraft (MFPB is the bees knees), Gemini vapor, and MI Drops (lodge and MI custard are awesome) all those companies have chemists and mixologists that put months into creating a new juice flavor.

its still down to your recipe.if its good its good.hazel nuts,coffee and aged brandy barrels is all well
and good.if i choke on it,then what?
i have to admit there is something to differentiation.i just not sure how it relates to the price of
rice in china.
regards
mike

 

[rebgold]

Ok Coldrake, lol, you are entitled to your own opinion. Any flavors other than the "holy trinity" in absinthe are optional and would be up to the creator, so I would say if one enjoyed the citrus taste and veered from lemon balm to lemon, it's their prerogative. It's fair enough to say you don't care for it as an absinthe juice, but saying he missed the mark at this point is kind of silly to me.

It's not a plug, liking a juice and using the juice you like best as your example doesn't make this an advertisement for MM, any more than the discussion having veered to 5 Pawns makes it now a plug for 5 Pawns.

 

[skoony]

I am a bit confused by this post regarding the Five Pawns bit, you seem to state that both 'they make their own flavouring' and that it is just the same as the 'flavouring that any DIY can buy' and then another '5P has just developed their own'. What are you stating?

If you are saying they make their own flavourings then I think you have been misled, I have checked up on this (as I thought it might justify their prices) and it appears that they don't make their own, they just source them from the US (mostly California area). Which is nothing remotely special.

If you are saying they are the same as most other vendors, then yes, I agree.

I have to admit that I was massively disappointed when I tried Grandmaster & Gambit, disappointed in both the taste and with my own gullibility.
Fair play to them for marketing their product so well though, I am sure they get a lot of people buying once from them.
I see them as the 'Cristal' of the e-juice world, more of a status symbol than something for the actual connoisseur...

this is from 5 Pawns web site.
"Flavors are extracted from actual base ingredients and we offer each flavor in 0mg, 3mg, 6mg, 12mg, and 18mg nicotine doses."
it doesn't say they are making their own flavors.
i take this to mean using natural flavors they have purchased.
i have noticed when you read what they actually say as opposed to what you think
it means they are two different things.this isn't knocking Five Pawns,i have
noticed this across the board in any thing that's advertised.
just for instance, a mixologist is one who has graduated from bar tending school.
i have ran across a couple of sites that actually admit it.it makes sense too,as
a good bartender knows how to come up with flavors using the most unlikely
combinations.ever seen what goes into a long island ice tea? it tastes like
ice tea.go figure.
regards
mike

 

[DoubleEwe]

I never knew 5P bought the flavouring ... So it seems to be the nic base alone that sets them apart.

You are proof that taste is very subjective ... what you find disappointing, I find to be amongst the cleanest tastiest juice ever ... you judge it as juice that many people would order only once ... I see 5P juice as totally worth reordering (Gambit is one of the only liquids I've ever reordered).

IMO, most vendor juice starts with bad tasting nicotine base ... 5 Pawns just has a cleaner taste than other eJuice.


Sent via iPhone

I know taste is subjective and all that jazz, but the thing that got to me was that on paper the flavours were right up my street, so I was expecting the most (or one of the most) expensive version of that flavour profile to be on point.
The problem may have come from them using alcohol based flavourings (I assume they do due to the taste experienced), which I detest, I had to leave the top off Gambit for a whole week before I could even vape it, despite the juice being born 2 months beforehand.

I am a fussy bugger though, there are not many juices that I like. I even signed up to Craft Vapery (premium subscription service) to try to find some decent juices, out of the 15 juices I have had from them I have only found 1 great juice, 2 more that I would buy again and the rest were ranging from OK to unvapeable.

 

[DeathBYzombieZ]

I think you just really like mad Murdocks juice and that's it. Just because you don't like another company doesn't mean they're crap and just because you like Murdock doesn't mean his is gold. I'd say I have an average size spectrum in my flavor profile, I like dessert and fruit flavors. I think you only have a few flavors that you like and you're stuck on those. Nothing wrong with that but you cant down other companies because you only like one.

 

[rebgold]

Well, I started DIYing because I was constantly wanting more out of juices and felt I could do better.
I was a confectioner, so these flavorings were already familiar to me and I do tend to like pretty exotic flavors. I mix mainly fruit/floral combinations, I use jasmine, honeysuckle/lavender/neroli/ylang ylang, stuff that is off the beaten path.
I try lots of different combinations, I have hundreds of flavorings. I love MMR juices because they are super complex and unusual, but I also noticed that they are somewhat different when you taste them on your tongue.
Honestly, I'm a broke single mom and I don't order any juices at all these days, it's just too expensive for my budget and I don't think it's worth it, most of the time. I like champagne but I don't buy that either, lol.

 

[Coldrake]

Ok Coldrake, lol, you are entitled to your own opinion. Any flavors other than the "holy trinity" in absinthe are optional and would be up to the creator, so I would say if one enjoyed the citrus taste and veered from lemon balm to lemon, it's their prerogative. It's fair enough to say you don't care for it as an absinthe juice, but saying he missed the mark at this point is kind of silly to me.

It's not a plug, liking a juice and using the juice you like best as your example doesn't make this an advertisement for MM, any more than the discussion having veered to 5 Pawns makes it now a plug for 5 Pawns.

Without wormwood, it isn't absinthe. There is no wormwood in Pluid. I'll just leave it at that.

 

[Robino1]

I've been thinking about this subject, off and on, for days. It finally hit me. Rebgold, you are in the business of KNOWING your flavors. You have to in order to do what you do. Most of us don't have the tongue to taste individual flavors in e-liquid, let alone food, and we tend to taste the overall product.

If you really think about it, someone that is a coffee fanatic (maybe a little strong word but gets the point across) has a VERY difficult time finding a coffee vape that they can vape. I think in part because they KNOW what that coffee is supposed to taste like. A tangible flavor that their mind knows for absolute certainty. Their mind cannot be tricked by something that is close.

I know what certain flavors I love are supposed to taste like and trying to find a liquid that imitates them is usually not going to happen. If it is something that I have never eaten? I usually end up liking the liquid or at least am able to give it a fair shot before relegating it to the discard or keep pile.

The more I read the forums, it seems as though those that are in the food/flavor business are the ones that have a harder time with flavors in the liquids they buy from vendors. Wine connoisseurs have trained themselves to pick out the nuances in different wines. They also can spot the different flavors in complex e-liquids. I was always baffled at how people can get one thing on an inhale and something else on the exhale. Heck, I was just happy tasting flavor, Period. Still am.

I get your frustration, but many of us do NOT have that frustration. Does it make it right that, to you, vendors are putting higher prices on "boutique" liquids? Maybe people have a slightly better than average taster and gravitate to something that is a bit more boutique, yet don't have the super taste that someone in the food/flavor business has.

To you it may be crap liquid, to some of us it is the one thing that stands between smoking and not smoking. You are definitely entitled to your opinion and it is a very valid opinion. You have the background. Just please remember, not everyone can taste those flavors with such ease. Most get the general idea by the total package.

 

[Soignee]

I've been thinking about this subject, off and on, for days. It finally hit me. Rebgold, you are in the business of KNOWING your flavors. You have to in order to do what you do. Most of us don't have the tongue to taste individual flavors in e-liquid, let alone food, and we tend to taste the overall product.

If you really think about it, someone that is a coffee fanatic (maybe a little strong word but gets the point across) has a VERY difficult time finding a coffee vape that they can vape. I think in part because they KNOW what that coffee is supposed to taste like. A tangible flavor that their mind knows for absolute certainty. Their mind cannot be tricked by something that is close.

I know what certain flavors I love are supposed to taste like and trying to find a liquid that imitates them is usually not going to happen. If it is something that I have never eaten? I usually end up liking the liquid or at least am able to give it a fair shot before relegating it to the discard or keep pile.

The more I read the forums, it seems as though those that are in the food/flavor business are the ones that have a harder time with flavors in the liquids they buy from vendors. Wine connoisseurs have trained themselves to pick out the nuances in different wines. They also can spot the different flavors in complex e-liquids. I was always baffled at how people can get one thing on an inhale and something else on the exhale. Heck, I was just happy tasting flavor, Period. Still am.

I get your frustration, but many of us do NOT have that frustration. Does it make it right that, to you, vendors are putting higher prices on "boutique" liquids? Maybe people have a slightly better than average taster and gravitate to something that is a bit more boutique, yet don't have the super taste that someone in the food/flavor business has.

To you it may be crap liquid, to some of us it is the one thing that stands between smoking and not smoking. You are definitely entitled to your opinion and it is a very valid opinion. You have the background. Just please remember, not everyone can taste those flavors with such ease. Most get the general idea by the total package.

That is the nail on the head.

I had to stop using CV as a service because almost none of the juice hit for me. Everyone else is loving "X" juice and I'm picking up the slightest nasty nuances because I'm 'trained' to do that with flavor. So it's DIY and several juices from one vendor for me. Keeps me from smoking.

 

[Stosh]

....The more I read the forums, it seems as though those that are in the food/flavor business are the ones that have a harder time with flavors in the liquids they buy from vendors. Wine connoisseurs have trained themselves to pick out the nuances in different wines. They also can spot the different flavors in complex e-liquids. I was always baffled at how people can get one thing on an inhale and something else on the exhale. Heck, I was just happy tasting flavor, Period. Still am. .....

Wine connoisseurs have been unceremoniously busted in blind taste testing. Given a white wine and red wine to judge, they found major differences even though they were the same wine - one with some food coloring. Or judging the same wine in different bottles - labels and finding the more expensive labeled wine superior.

If our juice reviews and reviewers were subjected to blind taste testing, I might be persuaded to buy any pre-flavored and give up my DIY.....nah, never happen, j/k....

 

[rebgold]

Without wormwood, it isn't absinthe. There is no wormwood in Pluid. I'll just leave it at that.

It's a flavoring concentrate. I highly doubt any of them literally contain wormwood.
Also, wormwood is extremely bitter and the other flavorings in absinthe are basically there to make it palatable due to the wormwood, which is there for the physical effects.

 

[rebgold]

I've been thinking about this subject, off and on, for days. It finally hit me. Rebgold, you are in the business of KNOWING your flavors. You have to in order to do what you do. Most of us don't have the tongue to taste individual flavors in e-liquid, let alone food, and we tend to taste the overall product.

If you really think about it, someone that is a coffee fanatic (maybe a little strong word but gets the point across) has a VERY difficult time finding a coffee vape that they can vape. I think in part because they KNOW what that coffee is supposed to taste like. A tangible flavor that their mind knows for absolute certainty. Their mind cannot be tricked by something that is close.

I know what certain flavors I love are supposed to taste like and trying to find a liquid that imitates them is usually not going to happen. If it is something that I have never eaten? I usually end up liking the liquid or at least am able to give it a fair shot before relegating it to the discard or keep pile.

The more I read the forums, it seems as though those that are in the food/flavor business are the ones that have a harder time with flavors in the liquids they buy from vendors. Wine connoisseurs have trained themselves to pick out the nuances in different wines. They also can spot the different flavors in complex e-liquids. I was always baffled at how people can get one thing on an inhale and something else on the exhale. Heck, I was just happy tasting flavor, Period. Still am.

I get your frustration, but many of us do NOT have that frustration. Does it make it right that, to you, vendors are putting higher prices on "boutique" liquids? Maybe people have a slightly better than average taster and gravitate to something that is a bit more boutique, yet don't have the super taste that someone in the food/flavor business has.

To you it may be crap liquid, to some of us it is the one thing that stands between smoking and not smoking. You are definitely entitled to your opinion and it is a very valid opinion. You have the background. Just please remember, not everyone can taste those flavors with such ease. Most get the general idea by the total package.

Very thoughtful and interesting. Thank you, you're cool.
(someone is going to think I'm being angry and sarcastic-I'm totally not!)

 

[Soignee]

Wine connoisseurs have been unceremoniously busted in blind taste testing. Given a white wine and red wine to judge, they found major differences even though they were the same wine - one with some food coloring. Or judging the same wine in different bottles - labels and finding the more expensive labeled wine superior.

If our juice reviews and reviewers were subjected to blind taste testing, I might be persuaded to buy any pre-flavored and give up my DIY.....nah, never happen, j/k....

Here is a link to an article on that psych experiment. 'You Are Not So Smart': Why We Can't Tell Good Wine From Bad - The Atlantic.

I agree with your post, but they were oenology (the study of wine tasting and wine making) undergraduates not connoisseurs. There is a big difference between students and pro's.

I think unlabeled brown bottles for reviewers to sample from would really change reviews! Our senses are manipulated by all the outside factors that our brain perceives (if that makes sense!)

 

[Stosh]

Here is a link to an article on that psych experiment. 'You Are Not So Smart': Why We Can't Tell Good Wine From Bad - The Atlantic.

I agree with your post, but they were oenology (the study of wine tasting and wine making) undergraduates not connoisseurs. There is a big difference between students and pro's.

I think unlabeled brown bottles for reviewers to sample from would really change reviews! Our senses are manipulated by all the outside factors that our brain perceives (if that makes sense!)

Great link, thanks!! Unlabeled brown bottles, not even a hint of what the flavor is would be an interesting experiment for juice tasting. I've unintentionally experimented with this....having unlabeled small bottles of DIY experiments. Cleaning out my stash boxes there's always a couple bottles where the label has fallen off or is unreadable, tasting them....some are easily identifiable others not so much, and others drain cleaner.

edit: found some interesting info

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine_tasting

To ensure impartial judgment of a wine, it should be served blind — that is, without the taster(s) having seen the label or bottle shape. Blind tasting may also involve serving the wine from a black wine glass to mask the color of the wine. A taster's judgment can be prejudiced by knowing details of a wine, such as geographic origin, price, reputation, color, or other considerations.