The Meaning of "Boutique" juice and what you all are missing.

[Frenchfry1942]

Oh, the amount of chemicals in what we consider as common "healthy" items is huge. If an ingredient, think chemicals, does not meet a certain threshold the FDA says that it does not have to be listed. It is to small to have significant effects. (total BS) I read an article on Doritos...124 ingredients (chemicals)...but aren't they good. Mac & Cheese...Agghhh.

Everything in the produce department is dangerous. Oh, as to "flavoring", artificial banana flavoring has just over 300 ingredients (think chemicals). Strawberry is another very high content artificial flavoring.

And, notice, that the word "ingredients" is always used...because it sounds better than chemicals.

I really don't worry about it. I just want to eliminate my need for a cigarette.

Life goes on...

 

[Mr.Mann]

Oh, the amount of chemicals in what we consider as common "healthy" items is huge. If an ingredient, think chemicals, does not meet a certain threshold the FDA says that it does not have to be listed. It is to small to have significant effects. (total BS) I read an article on Doritos...124 ingredients (chemicals)...but aren't they good. Mac & Cheese...Agghhh.

Everything in the produce department is dangerous. Oh, as to "flavoring", artificial banana flavoring has just over 300 ingredients (think chemicals). Strawberry is another very high content artificial flavoring.

And, notice, that the word "ingredients" is always used...because it sounds better than chemicals.

I really don't worry about it. I just want to eliminate my need for a cigarette.

Life goes on...

Yep.

Natural flavors are comprised of a slew of chemicals as well, and many times you'll have carry over from the environment/soil they were grown in. So, in the end, what really matters is that all matter is comprised of chemicals. Chemicals aren't bad, but a lot of bad chemicals can be.

 

[Robino1]

PG,VG,flavorings(sweeteners),alcohol(other than whats in some flavorings),may a little distilled water,nicotine level if used, and your formula.
mix well.
ta da! my juice is premium,yours is not.
good marketing doesn't hurt regards,
mike

I wrote an analogy a couple of years ago, Mr. Mann may remember this:

An analogy if you will:

I will use meatloaf for this one.

The common ingredient is hamburger. Now there are different grades of hamburger (as there are different grades of flavoring)
Then you have those that grind up their own beef (vendors that extract their own flavors)

What makes my meatloaf great to me is all the other things I add to it. But no matter what other things I add, it is still meatloaf.
Most meatloaves get an egg added (we'll pretend that is the VG)
Most get breadcrumbs (PG if you don't mind)
Now the master mixer comes to play. Let's get some salt and pepper in there (nic)
Now how can I make this special and stand out from everyone else's?
Let's add a little of this (a drop of flavor x)
Add a little of that (two drops of flavor y)

Whoa, I make the best meatloaf I have ever tasted! I think I could sell this. What should I call it? Well Duh! It's meatloaf!

Let's see if I can take this a little further:

I go to a restaurant and order.......yep, you guessed it.....meatloaf. It is the most disgusting meatloaf I've ever had. But wait! Shouldn't it taste the same? It uses the same basic ingredients, right? Yes it does. But what are the ratios they are using? Two eggs can change meatloaf's texture if you only use a pound of beef. Too much salt...well we all know what that does.

People who mix flavors, whether they make their own or whether they buy premade flavors, are still mixing their Own recipes to come up with what they think is great....to them, first, and hope that others will think its great to them too. Some do, some don't.

That restaurant that I thought the meatloaf was gross? Well turns out that it was voted best dinner in Philly. Maybe if I didn't love mine as much as I do, I might've liked theirs too. (just had to throw in a bit of DIY )

I thought of this analogy while I was making.....wait for it.......

Meatloaf

 

[Mr.Mann]

OMG, I do remember that! Too funny.

 

[rebgold]

A lot of detours on a thread that started off talking about the quality of expenses juices.
I still strongly believe whether you're a fan of a little food coloring or not, that MMR juice is of a higher quality than many out there and perhaps more justifiably deserving of a higher price tag.
It would be cool if juice makers could participate in the discussion, I'm sure they would not be short on opinions on this topic.
Mr.Mann, are they allowed to join a discussion like this?

 

[Robino1]

A lot of detours on a thread that started off talking about the quality of expenses juices.
I still strongly believe whether you're a fan of a little food coloring or not, that MMR juice is of a higher quality than many out there and perhaps more justifiably deserving of a higher price tag.
It would be cool if juice makers could participate in the discussion, I'm sure they would not be short on opinions on this topic.
Mr.Mann, are they allowed to join a discussion like this?

Suppliers are not allowed to post outside of their areas.

 

[rebgold]

That's too bad that suppliers can never join in on discussions. They after all, also vapers.

To say it's just marketing is to assume there is no difference in the quality of any products that are available to say, a wholesale vendor compared to an average DIYer. I don't think that's true.

 

[skoony]

I wrote an analogy a couple of years ago, Mr. Mann may remember this:

An analogy if you will:

I will use meatloaf for this one.

The common ingredient is hamburger. Now there are different grades of hamburger (as there are different grades of flavoring)
Then you have those that grind up their own beef (vendors that extract their own flavors)

What makes my meatloaf great to me is all the other things I add to it. But no matter what other things I add, it is still meatloaf.
Most meatloaves get an egg added (we'll pretend that is the VG)
Most get breadcrumbs (PG if you don't mind)
Now the master mixer comes to play. Let's get some salt and pepper in there (nic)
Now how can I make this special and stand out from everyone else's?
Let's add a little of this (a drop of flavor x)
Add a little of that (two drops of flavor y)

Whoa, I make the best meatloaf I have ever tasted! I think I could sell this. What should I call it? Well Duh! It's meatloaf!

Let's see if I can take this a little further:

I go to a restaurant and order.......yep, you guessed it.....meatloaf. It is the most disgusting meatloaf I've ever had. But wait! Shouldn't it taste the same? It uses the same basic ingredients, right? Yes it does. But what are the ratios they are using? Two eggs can change meatloaf's texture if you only use a pound of beef. Too much salt...well we all know what that does.

People who mix flavors, whether they make their own or whether they buy premade flavors, are still mixing their Own recipes to come up with what they think is great....to them, first, and hope that others will think its great to them too. Some do, some don't.

That restaurant that I thought the meatloaf was gross? Well turns out that it was voted best dinner in Philly. Maybe if I didn't love mine as much as I do, I might've liked theirs too. (just had to throw in a bit of DIY )

I thought of this analogy while I was making.....wait for it.......

Meatloaf

open a restaurant and sell your meatloaf.
some will love your meatloaf. others will say they liked the
meatloaf at the other place better.
some still will swear by mom's hands down.
i mixed paint and pre-mixed wall and ceiling textures for years.
once you have your formula tweaked you can repeat it and
get the same result time after time.
the difference in quality comes from difference in grade and quantity of the raw materials.
with e-juice there is not much difference in quality.food grade PG,VG,and flavoring is
food grade.pharmiceutical grade nicotine is pharmaceutical grade.
aside from the use of in house extracted flavor,(which is chemically the same as synthetic)or,
aging in oak barrels and a few other novelties every one starts out on a level playing field.
so your pretty much left with adjusting the quantity of ingredients all of which are pretty
much the same.control of process is more important than artistic talent when making e-juice.
come up with some thing every one likes,your good to go.

regards
mike

 

[Mazinny]

A lot of detours on a thread that started off talking about the quality of expenses juices.
I still strongly believe whether you're a fan of a little food coloring or not, that MMR juice is of a higher quality than many out there and perhaps more justifiably deserving of a higher price tag.
It would be cool if juice makers could participate in the discussion, I'm sure they would not be short on opinions on this topic.
Mr.Mann, are they allowed to join a discussion like this?

A lot of detours, perhaps because of the way you framed your op. What started out as valid observations on price and perceived quality of juice, and the lack of standard reviewing terminology, turned into a thinly veiled plug for Mad Murdoch juice. You started out by stating that there are objective ways of judging the quality of juice and segued into declaring Mad Murdoch as one of the only expensive juices worth the price. A non sequitur if you will. You sorta undermined your own argument.

For the record i never tried Mad Murdoch, not because it seems gimmicky, but because the flavor profiles don't appeal to me. To me food coloring is a variable that can easily be avoided, and i like to eliminate as many as possible, just in case they turn out to be harmful, not that there is any hard data one way or the other. Cost benefit analysis of sorts. The cost of avoiding Mad Murdoch is less than minimal to me. For you, it might not be. Subjective.

 

[Mogar]

That is like saying a car is a car. It usually has 4 wheels and a motor and gets you from point A to point B. A porche and a Yugo are the same right? Ok maybe too extreme. Chevrolet Prizm and Toyota Corolla? Same style, same body same almost everything. What sets them apart? Why did some people swear by one and not the other? They were both manufactured by the same company, they were both literally the same parts, only the name was different (and paint shades). One was a few thousand dollars higher than the other.

Marketing.

there are thousands if not more of examples of this. What makes one a premium vs. a house blend? Marketing, name, branding, bottling and the market (ie the consumers). There is literally no difference, but if they can sell it at a higher cost, and people buy it at that cost, why not.

 

[rebgold]

I didn't actually have much of an agenda in mind when I started it. I was looking at crazy expensive boutique juices online, and just being kinda displeased by them. I thought about all the expensive juices I've tasted, how I felt about their quality, what stood out to me, what I've learned about juices, etc...
I didn't think to myself, "I'll plug MMR juice" but it does so happen it's the only one I think is worth reordering.
I don't think every single bottle of vodka has the exact same ingredients and I don't think every eliquid does either. I highly doubt every single batch of pharm nic is 100% the same, regardless of manufacturer and I doubt the same to be true of pg/vg and flavorings. I think many companies use the exact same stuff most of DIYers can get ourselves, but I think some find sources for better products.

For me the various detours and my responses have been organic, like a conversation, not following an agenda, and it wasn't a criticism that I commented about detours, just a reflection.

I know one thing, in light of this ridiculous contest, I will never buy any juice from Nicoticket.

 

[Mazinny]

See what you just did, you let the over enthusiasm of Nicoticket fans and the use of this poll as a marketing tool by Nicoticket, affect your purchasing decision. Surely if the quality of a juice could be objectively determined as you seem to imply, this poll has no effect on the quality of Nicoticket juice.

People don't make all decisions in a rational and objective manner, even if it were possible. Marketing, word of mouth, pricing, packaging, perception etc... all have an impact on our purchasing decisions. No one is immune.

 

[nyiddle]

I was looking at crazy expensive boutique juices online, and just being kinda displeased by them

Wait.. What?

Isn't your argument that boutique juices are worth it over non-boutique juices, and that the quality of ingredients in boutique juices is naturally better than those of non-boutique juices? (ie: "You get what you pay for")

It seems like you're not sure what you really believe in, at this point.

 

[rebgold]

Wait.. What?

Isn't your argument that boutique juices are worth it over non-boutique juices, and that the quality of ingredients in boutique juices is naturally better than those of non-boutique juices? (ie: "You get what you pay for")

It seems like you're not sure what you really believe in, at this point.

My argument is that about 95% of boutique juices are overpriced, here today, gone tomorrow crap that you could make yourself just as well. And that, ok, wait, this has gone in so many tangents I'm actually going to go back to my first post and make sure I remember what I was saying, lol.
Okay, I'm back. Here's the biggest point of what I said,

When you order one of these "fancy" juices and you can taste the nic, you can taste the EM, you can pin point an exact TPA flavoring, that isn't good juice people, that's someone marketing their DIY to you the same as you could have done to them if you'd wanted to get a website and some labels.
Just because they gave it a cool name, a cool website, cool labels and bottles doesn't mean their blueberry lemonade is worth 24 bucks. Blueberry lemonade is just blueberry lemonade, whether you make it yourself for 2 bucks or pay 24 bucks for 15 ml of it because it's called Magical Smurf Blood or something.

It's like a fake designer handbag, junk masquerading as fancy stuff.
The classics have lasted because they're better.
I think that's all.
The end

 

[FearTX]

I agree that the bulk of high end juices are OP. What you may be missing though is for a heavy smoker of 20 plus years they are going to be hard pressed to tell the difference between flavorwest cinnamon roll flavoring, OOO CR flavoring or TFA Cinnamon danish, they will also not know the difference between the use of EM or Sucralose on either of those asides from the fact that vaping too much of one of them will deaden their mouth for a few hours. which will then be chalked up to "vapers tongue" after a quick trip to a forum. Maybe 2 years after they have stopped tobacco but not initially.

At the end of the day things are worth only what the consumer is willing to pay for them. 200$ tennis shoes and 50$ Tshirts are not really worth 200$ and 50$ More often than not they wear and feel just like their 40$ and 8$ cousins.

 

[Coldrake]

Food coloring in e-liquid is nothing more than a gimmick and completely unnecessary. Why anyone would want to vape ingredients that don't need to be there is beyond me. Maybe some people don't mind vendors throwing in unnecessary things into their e-liquid, but I do.

There is a reason the really successful liquids have lasted and remained popular, liquids like Pluid by Mad Murdock,( insert other old school favorite here since I used a bad example)
, etc... They are not just a tasty little mix of flavorings, they are QUALITY juices made by professionals who actually understand the ingredients in them! They stand out because they actually are different. They didn't just buy some nic from Wizard Labs and some flavors from The Perfumers Apprentice and dump some stuff in a bottle to make money off you. Sure, there are hundreds of other absinthe eliquids now that people have had years to copy,

It was THE original boutique absinthe juice.

Mad Murdock's Pluid is by no stretch of the imagination an absinthe flavored e-liquid.

 

[eyerhere]

In an open market whoe is to say what is worth it. Going with the, its all the same stuff theory, some are still going to achive better results than others.
This great juice mixer should be able to command a premium price for his skills. I can buy car parts at wallmart, but my mechanic does it better.
What determines premium from sub par is peoples opinon. I have shared my favorite diy withva few people and got meh reviews. I would pay top dollar for a bottle of this where they think it is meh. So who is right? EVERYBODY.
Bickering over this topic makes no sense. Although it has been amusing.

Is it good for us? WTFK
Is it all the same? NO
Is it worth it? WTFK

 

[rebgold]

Um, Coldrake, Pluid is absolutely an absinthe juice.

 

[Raffa]

Thank you Rebgold!

I have only read through the first couple pages of this thread but whenever someone makes a distinction that calls out a lot of people it will always rub them the wrong way no matter how sincere and true the statement is. It is great the Rebgold is bringing attention to the difference between companies that use 'flavoring' and companies that use true ingredient extract. My position is that just because flavoring is used does not mean its of low quality. It just means if you put enough time in you can reproduce the same juice. The companies that use true ingredient extract have a upper hand because their juices require the creator to extract flavors from real life foods or beverages, which is much harder to replicate.

Phillip Grand Reserve Creme de la creme uses hazel nuts, coffee and ages in old brandy barrels to make his juice. Try to replicate that with diy flavoring and you will be off. A few companies that use real ingredient extract that I enjoy are Vapercraft (MFPB is the bees knees), Gemini vapor, and MI Drops (lodge and MI custard are awesome) all those companies have chemists and mixologists that put months into creating a new juice flavor.

 

[WillyZee]

5 Pawns is a boutique juice company no doubt ... however, they are not the only mix masters. They happen to make their own flavouring, which really is just the same flavouring that any DIY can buy ... however, 5P has just developed their own so as to keep their juices unique to their brand.

what truly makes a juice boutique? ... when it tastes and vapes awesome to a large following of vapers ... no matter who came up with the recipe using any mix of TFA, FA, INA, etc.

If the juice tastes awesome ... consider it boutique