The mystery of the draining battery?

[m00nshake]

Hello everyone:

I've got a very strange issue and I thought I'd ask my fellow vapers to see if anyone knows if this is possible.

Here's what's happening:

I had an issue where the 18650 batteries on my Provari were draining faster than normal. batteries that are around one year old would only last about an hour (or less), and batteries I purchased in late February would only last about 4-6 hours. Fully charged 18650 batteries normally would last me an entire day and night before needing to be charged with fairly heavy vaping throughout the day.

I contacted Provape about this issue and they recommended I clean the battery contacts and the 510 contact on top of the Provari with a cotton swab and rubbing alcohol. I followed their advise but was still experiencing the issue.

I own two Provaris, one of them I purchased in February when I bought the new batteries. The other one is around one-year old. I switched to my older Provari but was still experiencing the same issue as with the new Provari. The batteries would not last nearly as long as they used to.

So... I narrowed the problem down to being either the batteries or the battery charger. Luckily, I own two battery chargers (yes, I stock up on everything vape-related, just in case of some calamity). But I was still having the same battery issue, no matter which charger I used.

That left only the batteries as the culprit. I then purchased a brand new set of batteries. I charged the batteries fully before using them, however, I still experienced the battery draining faster than normal.

One thing I did not consider as a possibility was the device I was putting on the Provari as the cause of the issue...

I almost always use my Lavagen RBA. I also own a ZAP but I have some issues with it so I don't use it very much. I recently gave the ZAP another try. I noticed that when I have my ZAP on the Provari, it doesn't have the battery issue! The batteries last about the same as they always have, all day until night. This battery-draining-faster-than-usual issue seems to only happen when I have my Lavagen on the Provari. Both use stainless steel mesh and are set to about 2.0 ohm.

How is this possible? Is it even possible? How could one RBA drain a battery faster than another one? The technicalities of the battery and the atomizer is not my area of expertise, but maybe someone out can shed light on this mystery...

~m00n

 

[Statistic]

Are you measuring the voltage of the batteries when they are "dead"?

I'm guessing the offending rba is not conducting electricity very well. If that's the case and it's adding resistance that's going to translate to voltage lost by the time that voltage hits the coil.. maybe they're not actually dead but may feel dead (weak hit) sooner than they should?

 

[m00nshake]

The Provari allows you to check the current battery level. The values are from 3.0 - 4.2., with 4.2 being fully charged. Once it drains down to around 3.2, the led on the button starts blinking to let you know it is at 'low battery'.

Normally, I keep two batteries on my charger. In the morning, I put in a fresh battery. At night, before I go to bed, I switch out to a fresh battery, and repeat the process the next day.

What is happening now is that the fresh battery will not last the whole day. It lasts around 4-6 hours or less before the 'low battery' led starts blinking, then shortly thereafter it dies. Sometimes, my fresh battery dies before the battery I switched it out for has completed charging.

This does not happen when using the ZAP. It only happens with the Lavagen. The Provari isn't like a mechanical mod that starts vaping more weakly and then dies. It vapes as normal until the battery dies.

 

[StaircaseWit]

If the Lavagen is causing a lot of resistance, it will heat up an inordinate amount as you're using it. Those electrons have to go somewhere; the energy lost by draining the battery would be lost as heat.

Check the Lavagen as you're vaping it and see how hot it gets.

If you have a multi-meter, check the battery voltage fresh off the charger. It should be 4.2V -- not 4.1, not 4.3, but 4.2 for a properly-functioning battery and charger. Also check the voltage at the terminals of the atomizer while powered (press the button on the provari). That will tell you the voltage drop from the provari to the atomizer.

Have you used any of those batteries in a mechanical mod?

 

[Kemosabe]

The Provari allows you to check the current battery level. The values are from 3.0 - 4.2., with 4.2 being fully charged. Once it drains down to around 3.2, the led on the button starts blinking to let you know it is at 'low battery'.

Normally, I keep two batteries on my charger. In the morning, I put in a fresh battery. At night, before I go to bed, I switch out to a fresh battery, and repeat the process the next day.

What is happening now is that the fresh battery will not last the whole day. It lasts around 4-6 hours or less before the 'low battery' led starts blinking, then shortly thereafter it dies. Sometimes, my fresh battery dies before the battery I switched it out for has completed charging.

This does not happen when using the ZAP. It only happens with the Lavagen. The Provari isn't like a mechanical mod that starts vaping more weakly and then dies. It vapes as normal until the battery dies.

the bolded statement above appears to illustrate to me that you are overcharging your batteries. im not saying this is your entire problem, but chances are its a factor.

overcharging will severly limit the battery's ability to function properly. i dont really trust smart chargers not to overcharge, but perhaps there is some merit to them.

 

[vapdivrr]

whatever the issue might be, getting a year from the batterys is pretty good, as for the newer ones, that are 4 months, 4-6 hrs seems pretty good as well. but it still seems like there is a definite issue with the gen device in which you would need a multimeter to find the problem.

 

[m00nshake]

Thanks for all of your comments. I will address them one by one.

If the Lavagen is causing a lot of resistance, it will heat up an inordinate amount as you're using it. Those electrons have to go somewhere; the energy lost by draining the battery would be lost as heat.

Check the Lavagen as you're vaping it and see how hot it gets.

If you have a multi-meter, check the battery voltage fresh off the charger. It should be 4.2V -- not 4.1, not 4.3, but 4.2 for a properly-functioning battery and charger. Also check the voltage at the terminals of the atomizer while powered (press the button on the provari). That will tell you the voltage drop from the provari to the atomizer.

Have you used any of those batteries in a mechanical mod?

Yes I have a multi-meter that I have never really used but I will check the voltage when it comes straight off the charger. Thank you for the suggestion. I am still having trouble understanding why this would be happening on two different battery chargers, two different mods, on batteries ranging from brand new to 1-year old (although I will admit, the older batteries do not last as long as the new ones, they still last six hours when I am using the ZAP. I have not tried them with a mechanical mod as I no longer have one.

Also thank you for your explanation on the heat. It is possible that it is heating more than it should, I haven't noticed it being very hot, but it is something I will check for.

the bolded statement above appears to illustrate to me that you are overcharging your batteries. im not saying this is your entire problem, but chances are its a factor.

overcharging will severly limit the battery's ability to function properly. i dont really trust smart chargers not to overcharge, but perhaps there is some merit to them.

If overcharging the batteries is the problem, why is it that the same exact battery, charged in the same exact way, lasts twice as long on the Provari when the Lavagen is not on it but the ZAP is.

However, I am curious about overcharging now. Do you generally pull the battery off when it is done charging? How about if you are not home. How about when you sleep? I am not sure I understand how to manage cycling batteries if you are in fear of overcharging them. I would love to know more about this. Thank you for your input.

whatever the issue might be, getting a year from the batterys is pretty good, as for the newer ones, that are 4 months, 4-6 hrs seems pretty good as well. but it still seems like there is a definite issue with the gen device in which you would need a multimeter to find the problem.

Yes I agree that it is good to get a year out of a battery. I remember reading that a battery has 360-something charge cycles before it needs to be replaced. I am really trying to get to the bottom of why the same battery would last at least twice as long on the same mod, coming off the same charger, with just a different RBA being used with it.

 

[Crash Moses]

However, I am curious about overcharging now. Do you generally pull the battery off when it is done charging? How about if you are not home. How about when you sleep? I am not sure I understand how to manage cycling batteries if you are in fear of overcharging them. I would love to know more about this. Thank you for your input.

This depends on the charger. Higher end chargers monitor the batteries voltage and stop charging when the battery is fully charged. Cheap chargers don't stop charging once the battery is charged and this can damage the battery.

If you are using a cheap charger with cheap batteries you shouldn't charge overnight or while you're away as the batteries may get hot enough to explode or vent.

If you are using a good charger (Xtar, Pila) with good IMR batteries (AW, Panasonic) then, in my opinion, you don't have anything to worry about. There is still a chance of something going wrong due to a faulty charger or bad battery but the odds of this happening are very low (there are folks out there who adamantly insist you should never charge your batteries overnight regardless of the quality of your gear...ultimately the choice is yours).

And while we're on the subject...never charge your batteries inside a charging bag. The chargers we use need airflow to keep cool and were not designed to be put in a charging bag where they may overheat. Charging bags are for batteries only...with the charger on the outside of the bag (RC models and the like).

 

[st0nedpenguin]

If the Lavagen is causing a lot of resistance, it will heat up an inordinate amount as you're using it. Those electrons have to go somewhere; the energy lost by draining the battery would be lost as heat.

Check the Lavagen as you're vaping it and see how hot it gets.

If you have a multi-meter, check the battery voltage fresh off the charger. It should be 4.2V -- not 4.1, not 4.3, but 4.2 for a properly-functioning battery and charger. Also check the voltage at the terminals of the atomizer while powered (press the button on the provari). That will tell you the voltage drop from the provari to the atomizer.

Have you used any of those batteries in a mechanical mod?

A good charger will stop charging before 4.2v, usually in the ballpark of 4.15v.

 

[FogHawg]

Just for kicks check resistance between the neg/pos terminals of the suspect RBA (w/out a coil installed).

 

[vapdivrr]

is the lavagen an atty that has a rather long glass tank? I remember hearing something about voltage loss in devices like that compared to devices that are all ss.

 

[Vego]

I contacted Provape about this issue and they recommended I clean the battery contacts and the 510 contact on top of the Provari with a cotton swab and rubbing alcohol. I followed their advise but was still experiencing the issue.

Add to this procedure a thin film of Noalox on the bottom of the positive post inside the tube, the bottom cap threads, and the top of the spring for good effect.

 

[Kemosabe]

Thanks for all of your comments. I will address them one by one.

If the Lavagen is causing a lot of resistance, it will heat up an inordinate amount as you're using it. Those electrons have to go somewhere; the energy lost by draining the battery would be lost as heat.

Check the Lavagen as you're vaping it and see how hot it gets.

If you have a multi-meter, check the battery voltage fresh off the charger. It should be 4.2V -- not 4.1, not 4.3, but 4.2 for a properly-functioning battery and charger. Also check the voltage at the terminals of the atomizer while powered (press the button on the provari). That will tell you the voltage drop from the provari to the atomizer.

Have you used any of those batteries in a mechanical mod?

Yes I have a multi-meter that I have never really used but I will check the voltage when it comes straight off the charger. Thank you for the suggestion. I am still having trouble understanding why this would be happening on two different battery chargers, two different mods, on batteries ranging from brand new to 1-year old (although I will admit, the older batteries do not last as long as the new ones, they still last six hours when I am using the ZAP. I have not tried them with a mechanical mod as I no longer have one.

Also thank you for your explanation on the heat. It is possible that it is heating more than it should, I haven't noticed it being very hot, but it is something I will check for.

the bolded statement above appears to illustrate to me that you are overcharging your batteries. im not saying this is your entire problem, but chances are its a factor.

overcharging will severly limit the battery's ability to function properly. i dont really trust smart chargers not to overcharge, but perhaps there is some merit to them.

If overcharging the batteries is the problem, why is it that the same exact battery, charged in the same exact way, lasts twice as long on the Provari when the Lavagen is not on it but the ZAP is.

However, I am curious about overcharging now. Do you generally pull the battery off when it is done charging? How about if you are not home. How about when you sleep? I am not sure I understand how to manage cycling batteries if you are in fear of overcharging them. I would love to know more about this. Thank you for your input.

whatever the issue might be, getting a year from the batterys is pretty good, as for the newer ones, that are 4 months, 4-6 hrs seems pretty good as well. but it still seems like there is a definite issue with the gen device in which you would need a multimeter to find the problem.

Yes I agree that it is good to get a year out of a battery. I remember reading that a battery has 360-something charge cycles before it needs to be replaced. I am really trying to get to the bottom of why the same battery would last at least twice as long on the same mod, coming off the same charger, with just a different RBA being used with it.

honestly, i do not know. i think its a combination of things. overcharging certainly isnt helping, thats for sure. the biggest culprit may not be your batts, it might be the atomizer, but again- i believe its a combo of things occuring.

but to answer your questions- i only charge when ive got a couple of hours to spare. and i always keep an eye on the charger so i can pull them off right when theyre done. and as a precaution, i typically meter my batts before and after a charge. i absolutely never charge overnight. i dont even charge my toothbrush overnight, or cell phone, or anything for that matter.
it only takes a couple of hours to charge, if that. also, i dont allow my batts to drain completely. charging at 3.7v is slightly impractical, but thats the best way to prolong the lifetime of your batt. i try, but most of the time i end up charging at 3.5-3.6v.
if something comes up and you have to run out, pull your batts. a shallow charge is immensely better than overcharging.
the old rule of draining your batts completey before a charge and never pulling them before theyre done applies to the older chemistry nickel batts. with lithium, a shallow charge is actually preferred. check out battery university for more info.
also, charging your batts twice from 3.7v to 4.2v = 1 charge cycle. charging from 3.2v-4.2v would be a full charge cycle as well.

A good charger will stop charging before 4.2v, usually in the ballpark of 4.15v.

i have noticed this as well. however, i still believe that overcharging occurs when the batt is left on the charger for extended periods of time. even though the voltage isnt going too high, i think the constant flow of power damages the cells. im not scientist, just an observer.
for example: i have a friend who is irresponsible with charging. and although he uses a trickle charger and AW IMR batts, he still managed to render two 18490 batts basically useless in a matter of months. his batts loose volts by the second practically. my batts, which are identical and an identical charger, still perform like new. and ive had mine for almost a year; him: just a few months.

 

[Light Seeker]

A good charger will stop charging before 4.2v, usually in the ballpark of 4.15v.

If my charger stopped at 4.15, I'd toss it & get a new one
That said, older batteries being charged will only charge up to 4.15 or so. The battery looses capacity as they age. A fresh set of batteries on the same charger will charge to 4.20v. Normal occurrence.

i have noticed this as well. however, i still believe that overcharging occurs when the batt is left on the charger for extended periods of time. even though the voltage isnt going too high, i think the constant flow of power damages the cells. im not scientist, just an observer.
for example: i have a friend who is irresponsible with charging. and although he uses a trickle charger and AW IMR batts, he still managed to render two 18490 batts basically useless in a matter of months. his batts loose volts by the second practically. my batts, which are identical and an identical charger, still perform like new. and ive had mine for almost a year; him: just a few months.

Problem with most of the cheaper chargers is they use a trickle charge after the battery reaches 4.20V. This is a lower amperage pulse, usually in milli-amps, which effectively cooks your batteries and greatly shortens life span if left in too long. Better chargers like the Pila and I4 switch over to a much lower amperage pulse, usually in micro-amps, until the battery is removed. This micro-amp pulse charge is negligible, effectively having the charge circuit turned off.

I trust my batteries in these chargers overnight due to their design ...... but I also remove the full charged batteries when I can, all electronics can fail

 

[m00nshake]

Okay update everyone after several days of testing...

It certainly appears as if the Lavagen is the cause of this phenomena. I would like to clarify that my Lavagen is a drop-in, meaning it is not all stainless steel. It uses an already existing Lavatank top and bottom piece and a tank from Bedazzle. You simply drop the Lavagen into tube and bottom piece, fill the liquid, and then put the top cap on (after setting up coil/wick, of course).

It does seem that the tube itself feels hotter than my all SS ZAP (even the tube is SS). I would believe that the contacts being dirty could be the cause of the issue but I thoroughly cleaned the Lavagen including contacts to test the possibility. The batteries simply do not last as long as they do when the ZAP is on my Provari.

The only other thing I think of is that since the ZAP has a more airy vape, it is possible that I have to hold the bottom down for less time than I do on the Lavagen in order to get the same pull. The only way that I could test this would be either to test an all SS Lavagen (which I do not have), or if I had Bedazzle make me a Lavagen tank tube with the same size of an air hole as on the ZAP. Alternatively, and a free option at that, is simply to count the number of seconds I normally hold down the button when I vape using the ZAP vs the Lavagen, record those numbers, than come up with an average seconds the button is held down for each RBA.

Those are the only two possibilities that I can think of at this time. I will talk to Dino and see if he has any suggestions. If any of you have any more input regarding this mystery, please chime in. I will update you after I have spoken with Dino and done further testing.

 

[Heavyrocker]

I know one thing,my AGA drains my batts faster than my Nova tanks and they are both wrapped with mesh.

 

[m00nshake]

I know one thing,my AGA drains my batts faster than my Nova tanks and they are both wrapped with mesh.

Are they made from different materials or is one of them totally SS and the other not? And does one have an airy draw while the other one has a tighter draw?

 

[Heavyrocker]

The nova tanks are polyproplene and stainless posts with chrome plated top and bottomcaps,whole my AGA is pure stainless,i i think the stainless steel ''drains'' the batts.They are both wrapped with mesh and the same ohms.

 

[m00nshake]

The nova tanks are polyproplene and stainless posts with chrome plated top and bottomcaps,whole my AGA is pure stainless,i i think the stainless steel ''drains'' the batts.They are both wrapped with mesh and the same ohms.

That's weird because it's the opposite of the problem that I am having. The all SS RBA seems to be draining the battery much more slowly than the Lavagen. The only SS part of the Lavagen is the RBA drop-in. Maybe the length of time I'm holding down the button plays into this since the draw is tighter from the smaller air hole... More to come...

 

[Heavyrocker]

I never heard of the Lav Tank before but it costs an arm and 2 legs, 110 buck?,i have a fuuny feeling its the LAV tank causing the power drop,not sure why tho.