EU The Netherlands ratifyes TPD as first EU country

[Danie06]

Well the law was published officially today and will go into effect in exactly 3 months from now.
There was an advice on the law by the "Raad van State" , that is our highest legal advice comitee, which was critical of the law...
(That is actually remarkable to be honest).
Among others it said this:
"De Afdeling advisering wijst er op dat het gebruik van e-sigaretten niet alleen negatieve kanten heeft. Zo is de e-sigaret ook een hulpmiddel bij het stoppen of minderen met roken of om terugval te voorkomen. Verder is het gebruik van de e-sigaret voor rokers minder schadelijk dan het blijven doorroken van de gewone sigaret.
De toelichting op het ontwerpbesluit zou dan ook een meer evenwichtig beeld moeten schetsen van de voor- en nadelen van de e-sigaret en zou beter moeten motiveren waarom de gezondheidsaspecten van doorslaggevende betekenis zijn om nu al tot het vaststellen van regels over te gaan."

Translated as best as I can:
E-smoking does not only have negative sides. Among other things the e-cig is a smoking cessation aid which helps people to either quit smoking or to lessen smoking. Furthermore, e-smoking is less harmful for smokers than to continue smoking. Therefor the commentary on this law should create a more balanced picture of the pros and cons of e-smoking and give a better reasoning/ explanation why healthconcerns are the major factor to now establish this law.

Hmm not that it helps us much, but its kinda striking even the Raad van State as the highest judicial comitee is critical.

Well this is a very depressing day indeed.
No more clearo's over 2 ml. no more liquid in bottles over 10 ml and no more DIY

 

[DrMA]

Perhaps our friends in China can help circumvent this ridiculous law.

 

[Cmoke]

With a 20mg nicotine limit also being in the statute, many of the most popular disposables and rechargeable cigalikes would also be banned.

No there is a back door in the law, which wavers all these restrictions for e-cigs licensed as a medical device. So when it is a medical device it could in principle have a 10ml tank with 45mg/ml liquid, produce a different amount of nic with each puff, and it may leak too. So the current cigalikes will probably appear as medical devices anytime soon..

 

[rolygate]

.............So the current cigalikes will probably appear as medical devices anytime soon..

It depends which country that refers to. In the UK, the MHRA has made it very clear (finally, after soliciting applications for 4 years) that no current ecig will ever achieve a medical license. Almost certainly, they will require hardware that has a metered dose, constant atomiser temperature, non-refillable with a tamper-proof seal, with a preset number of 'doses', with no flavours that will appeal to anyone. The primary consideration (as for all medical products, at least in theory) is that the product must be unattractive, it must be unpleasant to use, and it must not allow dependence to develop (read: it should be unlikeable).

Actually this is fairly realistic for a medical device, as it bears no relation whatsoever to a consumer product. You cannot rebadge a consumer product as a medical product because the two things address different needs:

- A consumer product is deliberately designed to be as attractive as possible. It is improved whenever possible, to make it even more attractive, desirable and pleasant to use. People may buy and use it for no reason except that they need to spend their cash on something and this is as good as anything else, plus it's fun to use. Maybe it makes them feel good or it makes them look cool. Maybe it addresses a need. It's OK if it creates dependence, and no laws are likely in the near future to ban pharmacologically-active consumer drugs that create dependence, such as coffee and alcoholic drinks, especially if they can be highly taxed. The ultimate consumer product is something that is indispensable, and everyone wants one; that everyone uses as much as possible so that refills and replacements and upgrades are sold in volume; and that creates a buzz among consumers, who create a user community at zero cost to the manufacturer and therefore who do the advertising for free (marketing usually costs at least double the cost of R&D).

- A medical product is the opposite of every factor above. It will normally only achieve a license if it is unpleasant and no one would want to keep using it. It is designed to treat a medical condition, and no one without that condition should want to use it. A medical product will be a failure if people want to keep using it, as that brings in fears of addiction - everyone in the medical community desperately wants to avoid that ever since they first sold H as a patent medicine, and it went down just a little too well [1].


So in practice it is unlikely that many medical licensing authorities (if any) will grant a license to an ecig. If they do, you can be assured that it will not be a pleasant experience using it. They are reported to be in the process of licensing some devices that look like an ecig but are essentially just repackaged medical inhalers.






-----------------
[1] Some of this effort is a little pointless since there is no practical difference between a drug cartel headquartered in Medellin, Colombia and one headquartered in Geneva, Switzerland; but they would sure like you to think there is, and a lot of work goes into trying to create that illusion. If there is a difference, it is only in the scale of criminal activity: the Geneva cartel has been convicted of far more serious criminal activities and paid far more in fines (untold billions in fact), and has of course killed far more people.

Didn't see that coming, did you?

 

[Starlyte2]

All these restrictive legislations, while giving "experienced" vapers an obligation, unwanted, to become pirates, in a sense, has had the effect, unwanted with out doubt, of giving a really enormous publicity to the only effective method, IMO, to give up smoking, the Ecig, PV, or whatever you want to call it.
But there is no way I'd return to those horrible cartomisers, with their doubtful filling, and often even more doubtful liquid inside. I hate cartos, almost as much as I hate plastic in my atties, and stick to Pyrex, or at least glass.
When the two of us started vaping almost 3 years ago we took the same path as many with look-a-like ecigs, cartos, at 25mg, but now it's rebuildables, VV/VW, glass, and mechanical mods, as most vapers end up, but at 10 or 15 mg.
I DIY the juice, as the prices, along with the popularity, have rocketed. And it has really become a hobby. Why not?
In the end, telling people not to do something has exactly the opposite effect, and more and more people we meet are vapers.
So, in a warped manner, the polemic "to vape, or not to vape" has opened up both a solution for smokers to stop, and an obligation for every day, law abiding vapers to become criminals.

It's all so upside down, unecesessary, and profit based, it's getting ridiculous. Educated vapers, or simply educated salesmen/women are the most important in the safety and success of good vaping, and successful anti-tobaacco policy, or "no smoking". And the restrictions being made will restrict access to that part of vaping.
Democracy in all this mess, along with well being of the "democatic" subjects... is it all extinct?

Vape on, and be happy

 

[VBdev]

Booooooooooo

This is horrible. They accomplished being annoying and making it cost more while limiting choice and potential styles. This helps the consumer none, this decreases health risk none. This harms the populations health assuming some people that may have decreased or eliminated their cigarette use via vaping will not now.

How much 20 mg juice do you need to swallow to cause a serious risk? How about liquid draino or other stuff you shouldn't be swallowing? Lets limit the weight of auto mobiles so if they run over someone lying in the street they won't get hurt. Food should require no cooking people could get burned; food should be pre sliced as well.

boooooooooo boooooooooooooooo

 

[VBdev]

 

[Fishtec]

I have just received a email from self-e-steam the subcontext of the emailing being that they are going to more or less go out of business as there product range mostly violates this ruling how the hell does limiting the total capacity to two ml help anyone or mitigate risk to the user this is purely a bully tactic to make that majority of devices sold and used redundant the ruling about bottles of nicotine being sold for only 10 ml quantities will not stop anyone using the same amount of liquid either all it will be is a annoyance for users as they will have to stock up on more liquid then they would need too as someone living in the uk this is extremely worrying once one has gone the rest will fall it is only a matter of time now I cannot believe the audacity of the government complaining that smoking wastes them billions on healthcare globally but comes out with ignorant uneducated desicions such as this I remember th X-ray taken in the very early stages of research into vaping and its effects vs the X-ray of a person who had just had a cigarette it didn't take a genius to see what was the preferable alternative

 

[Fernand]

The mentality behind these rules goes back to either unfathomable prohibitionist nonsense or collusion with the tobacco tax authorities and the cigarette makers, pure and simple. Sometimes the most diabolical ideas are embraced in good faith by stupid people, for whom the comforting and profitable status quo - even that of cancer ravages - is preferable to a threatening Unknown over which they fear having no control.

There's hope in the way several states in America have legalized c a n n a b i s, rejecting a century of the customary lies. Not that the battle is over, but it's a sign of a healthy rebellion. E-cigs may have to go fully underground before their benefits are recognized.

When you consider that drugs like Chantix, with documented terrible side-effects, are approved, on the grounds that smoking is such a problem that it must be combated at any cost, it is inconceivable that vaping is subjected to more critique. Not because there are terrible documented side effects, but because after nearly a decade with thousands of people vaping there are NO reports of significant adverse reactions, but, but there MIGHT be some !!?!?!?

This is literally a crime against humanity. What will the bureaucrats who restricted access to vaping say in 20 years to the children of all the people who didn't have to die from respiratory diseases, cancer and cardiovascular problems - but did.

 

[Starlyte2]

For me, 30 years is a time when I'll with out doubt be pushing up daisies, but I hope that, considering the growing amount of vapers, despite or in spite of the growing amount of restrictive laws and the publicity resulting from this battle, maybe, just maybe, vaping will be the only socially acceptable fashion to absorb one's daily dose of nicotine and replace cigarettes as an adult dummy, or what ever you want to call the necessity to put an object in your mouth when stressed or simply out of habit.
30 years ago smoking was very acceptable, and those who didn't smoke were "strange", in bars, night clubs etc.
So 30 years from now maybe the vape bans will be considered as a crime against humanity... I'd like to see that, and hope that those who will have the great chance to see it will remember the "old days", and the battles and warriors

 

[trichome]

oh well, I shall just have to keep stocking up on 70mg nic! Currently a 20year supply of the stuff in the freezer. More on the way and lots more to be ordered before these stupid cash grabs come in.

 

[caramel]

Sometimes the most diabolical ideas are embraced in good faith by stupid people,[...]

With a large enough population of stupid, "democracy" works wonders.

 

[Muru]

In the mean time, the temporary law has been challenged by the industry-organization. Court-session was on March 13th (yep...Friday 13th) and everyone is feeling quite optimistic. Ruling will be on March 31st.
The Institute for environment and health published a report on health risks associated with ecigs last Monday. The report was not completely negative and actually stated that ecigs are much less harmful than tobacco. Even the Secretary of Health made that statement, however, ecigs are still dangerous enough to warrant a ban of sales to minors.
The Authority on Consumergoods and food however raised concerns about nicotine levels. According to the report of the RIVM, adverse effects were found at a level of 16mg/ml. This has prompted the Authority to claim that the 20mg/ml maximum is too high and should be brought down to below 16mg/ml. So that would be bad. And more bad news coming, which I can't clarify yet....

 

[Maytwin]

Interesting to note that RIVM hosts a Tobacco Product Regulation and Control Centre for - guess WHO ?.........

 

[Muru]

That is probably why there's more bad news coming, although I don't think what they want will pass public consultation. But weird .... is happening lately, so I don't dare be too optimistic

 

[jpargana]

The mg limit is not the killing blow. The device itself must be able to deliver a nic dosage that is EXACTLY the same every single puff. No device can do that today....

This one was thought specifically to kill the e-cig industry.

E-cigs are not medicines. They already tried that, and failed miserably.

What other consumer products deliver a consistent dose, everytime ?

Do those dirty polititians worry, when they drink an expresso in the morning, that the coffe machine is NOT delivering a consistent dose of caffeine, in each and every single cup?

Where is the "public health danger"? Where are the demands to ban coffe machines?

Do those people really believe we are do dumb as to not see right thru their machinations ??

 

[Muru]

This month, our Institute for Public Health and Environment will send a proposal to ECHA, to get nicotine classified as 'lethal upon inhalation' and 'lethal when in contact with skin'. Nicotine is currently classified as a Class III substance; the proposal wants nicotine classified as a Class I substance. Bad news for ecigs if this gets accepted....

 

[jpargana]

This month, our Institute for Public Health and Environment will send a proposal to ECHA, to get nicotine classified as 'lethal upon inhalation' and 'lethal when in contact with skin'. Nicotine is currently classified as a Class III substance; the proposal wants nicotine classified as a Class I substance. Bad news for ecigs if this gets accepted....

The trouble our beloved Govt's go thru, just to make sure people keep lining their pockets with cigarette taxes ! Talk about out tax money at work, right...? Used to "protect" us people ...!

'lethal upon inhalation' and 'lethal when in contact with skin' does make sense if you're talking about pure nicotine. Pure nicotine would be a "solution" at 1010 mg/mL. Of course, a vaper will understand how ridiculous that is. An uninformed person, however, will not. Especially after all those "news" about "deadly, pure nicotine sold by the barrel".

Anyway, I'm not seeing our beloved Govt's messing up with another bed companion, Big Pharma, by banning the Nicotrol inhaler - since "nicotine is lethal upon inhalation".

No, "they" will only stress the fact that we have "good" nicotine provided by BP, and "lethal" nicotine provided by e-cigs. Nevermind the fact that BP buys liquid nicotine from the same manufactures our vendors use to create high concentration bases.

 

[Muru]

Hmmmm, I'm not gonna count on BP to fix this problem....We're still trying to figure out what the implications might be if this proposal gets accepted, but we're also working hard to make sure that doesn't happen.

 

[Jorge22]

Hi, jpargana!

Anyway, this started as a thread about the Dutch legislation but we must remember what's happening elsewhere as well... As in Denmark. Or in Portugal, where the government has included an excise tax of 0.60 € per nicotine containing e-liquid ml, as well as the fact that they want to pass a law that will ban ecigs sales online - something illegal, as only nicotine containing juices have a special taxation, hence they couldn't ban the sale of anything else ecig related without breaking the EUs own regulations. But there's no such thing as governments or democracies anymore, only corporations.