The nicotine absorption contradiction

[DC2]

For years the prevailing belief is that we are getting significantly less nicotine from vaping than from smoking.
Some estimates have ranged as low as 10% and some as high as 40% or even higher.

We have evidence from some studies that novice vapers are getting little to no nicotine.
And we have evidence from other studies that experienced vapers CAN get significant nicotine, in some cases almost as much as smoking.

So we have people going through 5ml per day of 18mg juice, which would be the equivalent of almost 5 packs of smokes.
Some go through even more juice per day, and some use even higher strength than 18mg.

And yet, it is quite possible that even these people are not getting much more nicotine than they did when smoking.
And they certainly were not smoking 5 packs per day.


Then we have the discussions about whether or not we are exhaling nicotine into the environment.
Most research is saying that we do not exhale appreciable amounts, implying that we are absorbing almost all of it.

So are we absorbing all of it or not?
If not, where is the rest going?

I think it is possible that significant amounts of nicotine may not make it into the vapor in the first place.
Perhaps that gunk the builds up on your atomizer includes not only flavoring and coloring compounds, but also nicotine.

Has anybody seen any research on what percentage of nicotine is making it into the vapor?

 

[OnnaB]

Thats a point I worry about. I vape all day long....and I am concerned that I may be getting too much nicotine. I'd like to see some studies on this as well....

 

[TheSneakerHoarder]

My_only_addition_would_be_this:

@12mg--vape_all_day--no_nic-sick.

I_hit_36mg_for_10_minutes--WOAH!!!!!

It_might_be_internal_absorption_variation--not_juice_mg.

 

[Eagle Talon]

six times greater than analog cigarette- molecular size
Thus the absorption is much less reason !

 

[Punkndrublic]

six times greater than analog cigarette- molecular size
Thus the absorption is much less reason !

I totally agree with this theory.

 

[AttyPops]

Good points DC2.

I have a hard time even remotely believing that we don't exhale most of the nic. The concept that exhaled vape is somehow stripped of nicotine (that was in solution) but we can exhale much of the PG/VG/Flavorings/Water vapor back out... nah. The nic is still in the droplets of the condensate that doesn't make contact with mouth/throat/nose/bronchial tubes/lung tissue.... not magically vanishing into our systems out of the droplets.

Same reason exhaled "air" still contains a lot of (but not as much) oxygen.

Also, the ammonification of cigs increased the effective hit of the nic as I understand it (which is very little understanding on my part). So it may be the nic was more effective with cigs.

Best guesses.

 

[Sdh]

I believe many factors exist on how one absorbs nicotine. Here is a very long read but does contain some fun facts.

Metabolism and Disposition Kinetics of Nicotine

 

[Eagle Talon]

e-cigarette in the support material PG and VG. these oils, which is in the water (in blood) is not resolved! This fact is important

 

[AttyPops]

I wish I understood that better Eagle.

I should also add that inhaling then exhaling vapor greatly expands the volume. The effective concentration (per square cm) would be way less. Basically "diluted by the air"... but that doesn't speak to total nic absorption/exhalation... in total, not by volume.

Best guess again.

 

[myxomatosis]

Not really interested in "long reads" atm, but a reader's digest explaination would be appreciated. I've wondered myself for quite some time how much nicotine absorbtion occurs vs traditional cigarettes. I use 4-6mg nic usually, and I've rationalized it this way in my head (although it's very possible I'm way off).

When I smoke 12mg of nic, I equate that to a "light" cigarette. When I smoke cigarettes (dun, dun, duhhh) I smoke ultra-lights, so I try to dial my juice down to 4-6mg. But the difference is I don't know if these compare because I vape ALL DAY vs every hour with regular smokes. I do know that when I go up to 18+mg it's uncomfortable for me and I don't vape nearly as often because of that.

Very curious to see if any research has been done regarding this!

 

[Spazmelda]

This puzzles me as well. Couple of different explanations...

1. Something in the current research is wrong. Either we absorb more than we currently think, or more is exhaled than we currently think.
2. The nicotine doesn't get vaporized and stays in the cartridge. I wonder if anyone has tested a spent cartridge to see if it has more than the expected amount of nicotine.
3. The nicotine gets destroyed by the heat? I don't even know if this is possible.
4. Maybe we swallow much of the nicotine and it gets processed in the stomach rather than metabolized?

 

[Cool_Breeze]

I'll wait for the science.

 

[DPLongo22]

This is already posted here, in another ECF thread, but here is a direct link via YouTube. It's three hours long but quite informative. The doctor does speak to the nic absorption issue as part of his presentation. I broke it up into 30-45 minute sessions and was quite glad I did. For those interested:

VPLive Vape Team Episode #25: Proof Positive - YouTube

 

[Iffy]

I have a hard time even remotely believing that we don't exhale most of the nic.

AP, have ya seen this report? Utah Vapers - Clearstream Air Results

 

[Eagle Talon]

AP, have ya seen this report? Utah Vapers - Clearstream Air Results

this is what you see in the tar, nicotine is not

 

[AttyPops]

Well, I'm no expert. I read that the study is conducted in a room after smokers were in it (I think) so I'm rather surprised at some of the concentrations of compounds I didn't even think were present (or hardly present) in vape. At any rate, I concede that there could be something else as a factor (like nicotine changing states after heating and, uhm, transforming into something else and/or remaining as a gas and more readily absorbed... just trying to convey the notion here).

So, who knows. That study doesn't do what I'd want it to do for this question:
1) Analiyze the vapor from a "puff" sized hit on an e-cig in it's entirety (Captured into a clean collapsed bag?). And then:
2) Analyze the exhaled vapor (in entirety... like into a clean collapsed bag)
3) Compare.

Of course, they would have to be averaged out over many trials due to variability of "puff size". Also what e-juice?
Blood nic levels could be monitored too. Would be interesting.

That study was more for 2nd hand vape in a room than it was for nic absorption.

Just a layman's

 

[fuzzione]

This puzzles me as well. Couple of different explanations...

1. Something in the current research is wrong. Either we absorb more than we currently think, or more is exhaled than we currently think.
2. The nicotine doesn't get vaporized and stays in the cartridge. I wonder if anyone has tested a spent cartridge to see if it has more than the expected amount of nicotine.
3. The nicotine gets destroyed by the heat? I don't even know if this is possible.
4. Maybe we swallow much of the nicotine and it gets processed in the stomach rather than metabolized?

Readers Digest version: it's 3.

Longer version available in the excellent link referenced in post 13. Long, but a must watch for all vapers IMHO.

The science is here. No need to wait.

 

[MickeyRat]

A couple speculations.

A lot of the nic is destroyed by the heat.
Some of the nic mixes with the moisture in our lungs and is exhaled over time.

 

[Spazmelda]

I found a report somewhere that mentioned approximate percentages of how much nicotine gets vaporized. It was a range, like maybe 30-60%, but I can't for the life of me find where I saw that. I thought it was the Ruyan report, but looking back over it I don't see it there.

So, anyway, perhaps some gets destroyed and some never gets vaporized. Both of those factors combined could go a long way to explaining the discrepancy.

 

[EddardinWinter]

I believe a part of the problem with the issue is the confusion on the part of those doing the studies. Here is one I found linked to the ASH website, while scouting out ASH's activities.

Study: 'Electronic cigarettes' don't deliver - CNN

Note that the study used the following methodology:

"This past summer, Eissenberg recruited smokers without prior experience using e-cigarettes to volunteer to use two popular brands of the devices for a set period. The 16 subjects were regularly measured in a clinical setting for the presence of nicotine in their bodies, their reported craving for conventional cigarettes, and certain physiological effects such as a change in heart rate."

So he uses a bunch of folks who are used to analogs, gives them zero training, and is surprised when they do not show any/little nicotine benefit from electronics! Seems like an honest mistake but....

The school is VCU, where I am a former student, so I am gonna try to contact this cat and get him to do a new study. The new one will have two groups, one just like his previous one, and a second group of e cigarettes veterans. The nicotine benefits of the two groups could be compared, and this would help to document the importance of the user's skill with the device.

On the plus side, the story also cites ecf as a popular user website!

EDIT: After the next few posts, it would seem I am a bit behind on this issue. Thanks for the updated information!