The real reason the FDA must control Vaping - No its not Public Health

[Vapeon4Life]

By now most of you are aware that the FDA is starting to outlaw flavors,
for Public Health they say - I say otherwise.......

Some years ago The FDA was going to regulate vitamins and supplements like prescription drugs so you would no longer be able to buy them easily - would even need a prescription from a doctor for most of your common supplements and vitamins. We started a nationwide petition drive and got Congress to pass legislation protecting your right to buy supplements. It is around this time that we began to call the FDA by its real name "The Food and Death Administration" - Apparently they will do what is necessary to support their bosses who really don't give a damn about you health - Special interests and money rule.

Now vaping is a real threat to the agenda based upon the mostly true fact that tobacco, especially cigarettes kills and shortens Human life - vaping has now become a threat to this paradigm - Evidence indicates it will probably not kill or shorten your life. Health care is expensive and if you live to a ripe old age inevitably you will need a lot of it - But if you keep smoking cigarettes there is a good chance you will die sooner than later - They now say you will lose 12 years of life on average - And of course you will then save the government lots of money in Social Security and health care costs.

Your FDA {Food and Death Administration} knows this and is responsible for stopping the epidemic of life saving vaping products - Its only by getting you away from vapes and back on good old fashioned all American cigarette death sticks that they can stop this horrible epidemic of life saving electronic cigarettes.

For now the flavors have to go as they are keeping people off cigarettes and will lead to a longer life span - If that does not work complete prohibition of all vaping products is the next step.
You see its just like in India, where cigarette smoking kills millions so they outlawed all vaping !

Trust your Food and Death Administration {FDA} - If India can control its overpopulation through smoking why should the FDA be any different?

 

[Ed Brown]

That's an appealing thesis, and any vaper such as myself would be inclined to believe it. But is there any evidence to back it up? There are some avenues of research that could be pursued to support this.

1. Such a large conspiracy would be subject to leaks and tell-all disclosures by former/disgruntled employees. Has anyone come forward with these revelations?

2. Do the numbers support this? While smokers certainly have a shorter life expectancy, and 12 years sounds reasonable, many smokers develop chronic and expensive diseases. Private insurance companies do a competent job of risk assessment and have been adding surcharges for tobacco use for several years. In your analysis, I assume that the costs are in reference to public spending - medicaid, medicare, etc. which can not discriminate. The question in play here is a comparison of costs to treat a person with chronic lung disease, lung cancer, exacerbation of other conditions such as diabetes by cigarette smoking, vs someone who might live more years in better health and incur less cost to maintain their health. I don't know which it is, but there should be research out there that you could use to support your thesis in this argument.

3. The enormous political clout of big tobacco vs. the disorganized and weak clout of the vaping industry can not be discounted. A friend of mine recently returned from a vacation in Virginia. A carton of marlboro's cost her less than $50, while in Pennsylvania that carton would be over $100. That illustrates the clout of big tobacco, even on the state level. The tobacco companies have unlimited funds to lobby congress. Aren't the FDA's actions simply enforcement of laws passed by congress?

4. There is little doubt that the tobacco industry supports more jobs, generates more tax revenue, and produces more positive trade for the USA than the vaping industry does. This would be a powerful argument for not passing laws to restrict cigarettes. This by itself, does not refute your argument - they could both be true. But Occam's razor tells me that the money generated by tobacco is more likely to be the operative reason.

@Vapeon4Life: You could do a lot to support your thesis by tracking down some evidence to support it. It would be very well received.

 

[Vapeon4Life]

That's an appealing thesis, and any vaper such as myself would be inclined to believe it. But is there any evidence to back it up? There are some avenues of research that could be pursued to support this.

1. Such a large conspiracy would be subject to leaks and tell-all disclosures by former/disgruntled employees. Has anyone come forward with these revelations?

Why consider hypothetical conspiracies when you are watching a real conspiracy unfolding ???
And do you really need evidence as the facts unfold ???

Vaping Conspiracy Theories That Are ACTUALLY True!

 

[Vapeon4Life]

And speaking of conspiracy this is from 5 years ago but just as relevant to the facts:

"A Billion Lives' Documentary Suggests There's a Conspiracy Against Vaping



If you can get your hands on the full documentary it is still worth watching
- It suggests that up to a billion lives could be saved yearly.

That is not a conspiracy - The conspiracy IMHO, which I cannot prove is that that is the problem - THE FDA AND THE ANTI-VAPERS HAVE NO INTEREST IN SAVING LIVES !!!

 

[somdcomputerguy]

If you can get your hands on the full documentary it is still worth watching
- It suggests that up to a billion lives could be saved yearly.

A Billion Lives
https://knownicotine.com/

edit: I can't seem to get to the know nic site, but here are some search results.
know nicotine at DuckDuckGo

 

[Kai'ckul]

That's an appealing thesis, and any vaper such as myself would be inclined to believe it. But is there any evidence to back it up? There are some avenues of research that could be pursued to support this.

1. Such a large conspiracy would be subject to leaks and tell-all disclosures by former/disgruntled employees. Has anyone come forward with these revelations?

2. Do the numbers support this? While smokers certainly have a shorter life expectancy, and 12 years sounds reasonable, many smokers develop chronic and expensive diseases. Private insurance companies do a competent job of risk assessment and have been adding surcharges for tobacco use for several years. In your analysis, I assume that the costs are in reference to public spending - medicaid, medicare, etc. which can not discriminate. The question in play here is a comparison of costs to treat a person with chronic lung disease, lung cancer, exacerbation of other conditions such as diabetes by cigarette smoking, vs someone who might live more years in better health and incur less cost to maintain their health. I don't know which it is, but there should be research out there that you could use to support your thesis in this argument.

3. The enormous political clout of big tobacco vs. the disorganized and weak clout of the vaping industry can not be discounted. A friend of mine recently returned from a vacation in Virginia. A carton of marlboro's cost her less than $50, while in Pennsylvania that carton would be over $100. That illustrates the clout of big tobacco, even on the state level. The tobacco companies have unlimited funds to lobby congress. Aren't the FDA's actions simply enforcement of laws passed by congress?

4. There is little doubt that the tobacco industry supports more jobs, generates more tax revenue, and produces more positive trade for the USA than the vaping industry does. This would be a powerful argument for not passing laws to restrict cigarettes. This by itself, does not refute your argument - they could both be true. But Occam's razor tells me that the money generated by tobacco is more likely to be the operative reason.

@Vapeon4Life: You could do a lot to support your thesis by tracking down some evidence to support it. It would be very well received.

Big Tobacco has always been a problem and most definitely has greased the palms of the FDA. I have already signed a valid petition backed up by factual research. We've achieved a small victory in my neighborhood as in the initial lease we were expected to sign upon renewal this year stated that there could be no vaping/smoking INSIDE our own residences. There was so much resistance and communication with the lawyers for the owners of this property that they had to change the lease. Now, it states that there is to be no smoking/vaping in public areas or on our decks/patios, but they had to remove the portion that stipulated "inside residences".

 

[Ed Brown]

Why consider hypothetical conspiracies when you are watching a real conspiracy unfolding ???
And do you really need evidence as the facts unfold ???

Don't you see that I'm trying to help you along? Without evidence, what you are saying is just a rant. We've got lots of rants. What we could really use is some well researched arguments. Without that, you're just another voice in the crowd.

 

[Vapeon4Life]

Don't you see that I'm trying to help you along? Without evidence, what you are saying is just a rant. We've got lots of rants. What we could really use is some well researched arguments. Without that, you're just another voice in the crowd.

I start off with facts - I lived through every health food store with a petition to sign to prevent the FDA from making vitamins and supplements prescription items - We won, laws were passed to prevent this.
This won't work with vaping - Online petitions appear to have done nothing.

But when you start asking me to prove the FDA is unbiased in its actions against vaping I must question who you stand for ??? - You know that would require inside information not available easily - There is evidence that the World Health Organizaion is exerting its influence around the World and Bloomberg Philanthropies founded by Michael Bloomberg has been cited by politicians in the Phillipines for attempting to destroy vaping there.

Does Bloomberg spend money on politics in the United States? - You bet he does, and we all know about his failed attempt to become President with his gun control and vape control agendas.. How much does he donate to the campaigns of Politicians now? - 'Citizens United' blocks disclosure - So how can anyone prove how much of his money is fueling the anti-vape movement going on now??? You want me to show evidence that he is attempting to bribe congress and the FDA to due his dirty work? If I, or anyone else had that kind of evidence
Bloomberg would be through - But then again when you have all the money in the World you can probably
buy off almost anyone.

Sometimes when people attack me on vaping forums I imagine they are bought and paid for trolls working for Bloomberg Philanthropies - The same group that lies and gives false and misleading evidence proving that vaping is equal too or even more harmful than smoking - You see maybe the 'bogey man' and the monster hiding under the bed is real after all ???

===============================================

To continue:
Why did the FDA want to regulate most vitamins and supplements and make them prescription items? Because they were dangerous and a threat to the public - Something like their mantra on vaping. But supplements and vitamins aren't drugs you say - No matter, and why doesn't it matter? Because BIG PHARMA, the drug companies can't make much money off of them. And if I can't prove this its a rant you say? No its not - Its the truth!
Michael Bloomberg, Bloomberg Philanthropies, as mayor of NYC, besides increasing all restrictions on smoking {vaping wasn't big yet}, passed legislation, later declared unconstitutional, restricting the size of soft drinks because they were unhealthy! You see the tobacco nazis witll never be happy with just say cigarettes as you can see how they rapidly included vaping in their sights - But it won't stop there. Obesity is also a major health problem, so if you are going to restrict flavors in vaping products because they taste too good - Well you know what is next don't you? Right, the FDA must restrict spices and flavorings in food because if the food tastes too good people will eat too much and this will contribute to the obesity epidemic - And the FDA is doing it for your own good, to save the public from...........Enjoying life, becuase they decided the only way you can enjoy life is if they control it for you!
Call this a rant if you want - it is not. But if I were to say:
"We're mad as Hell and aren't going to take it anymore"
- that would be a rant !!!

 

[Kai'ckul]

I start off with facts - I lived through every health food store with a petition to sign to prevent the FDA from making vitamins and supplements prescription items - We won, laws were passed to prevent this.
This won't work with vaping - Online petitions appear to have done nothing.

But when you start asking me to prove the FDA is unbiased in its actions against vaping I must question who you stand for ??? - You know that would require inside information not available easily - There is evidence that the World Health Organizaion is exerting its influence around the World and Bloomberg Philanthropies founded by Michael Bloomberg has been cited by politicians in the Phillipines for attempting to destroy vaping there.

Does Bloomberg spend money on politics in the United States? - You bet he does, and we all know about his failed attempt to become President with his gun control and vape control agendas.. How much does he donate to the campaigns of Politicians now? - 'Citizens United' blocks disclosure - So how can anyone prove how much of his money is fueling the anti-vape movement going on now??? You want me to show evidence that he is attempting to bribe congress and the FDA to due his dirty work? If I, or anyone else had that kind of evidence
Bloomberg would be through - But then again when you have all the money in the World you can probably
buy off almost anyone.

Sometimes when people attack me on vaping forums I imagine they are bought and paid for trolls working for Bloomberg Philanthropies - The same group that lies and gives false and misleading evidence proving that vaping is equal too or even more harmful than smoking - You see maybe the 'bogey man' and the monster hiding under the bed is real after all ???

===============================================

To continue:
Why did the FDA want to regulate most vitamins and supplements and make them prescription items? Because they were dangerous and a threat to the public - Something like their mantra on vaping. But supplements and vitamins aren't drugs you say - No matter, and why doesn't it matter? Because BIG PHARMA, the drug companies can't make much money off of them. And if I can't prove this its a rant you say? No its not - Its the truth!
Michael Bloomberg, Bloomberg Philanthropies, as mayor of NYC, besides increasing all restrictions on smoking {vaping wasn't big yet}, passed legislation, later declared unconstitutional, restricting the size of soft drinks because they were unhealthy! You see the tobacco nazis witll never be happy with just say cigarettes as you can see how they rapidly included vaping in their sights - But it won't stop there. Obesity is also a major health problem, so if you are going to restrict flavors in vaping products because they taste too good - Well you know what is next don't you? Right, the FDA must restrict spices and flavorings in food because if the food tastes too good people will eat too much and this will contribute to the obesity epidemic - And the FDA is doing it for your own good, to save the public from...........Enjoying life, becuase they decided the only way you can enjoy life is if they control it for you!
Call this a rant if you want - it is not. But if I were to say:
"We're mad as Hell and aren't going to take it anymore"
- that would be a rant !!!

I would have to ask the same questions you are asking.....and I believe we are coming from the same place of knowledge....Agenda 21--read it backwards. Fight for personal freedoms....I don't partake in illegal drugs...don't have a record...and I'm certainly well read and old enough to choose what I do/do not want to put into my body. Vapers are very misunderstood due to mainstream information. Some of us have always understood the slant the media, WHO, FDA, CDC, governments, etc. put on everything to achieve their own goals. Hegelian Dialectic all the way. Chose not to participate...read everything you can that is not mainstream....keep your eyes/ears open to all possibilities.

 

[Kai'ckul]

Don't you see that I'm trying to help you along? Without evidence, what you are saying is just a rant. We've got lots of rants. What we could really use is some well researched arguments. Without that, you're just another voice in the crowd.

Are you Edward Bernays in disguise? 1927? Freud's nephew...just curious.

 

[Aerodan]

Agree or not on your premise, I feel your anger and sense of being attacked OP.

Personally, I believe there's a too-easy path available to special interests wishing to impose their will: prohibition. That's not only corporate, but political and even societal zealots that abuse it as a means to enforce opinion. There are legitimate times when giving up a right betters society as a whole. But man, those are very, very, very rare and should be treated as such.

Stopping groups from having their rights attacked (gun rights, vape rights, abortion rights, gay rights...) means having:

1) A system that makes it very, very hard for anyone and everyone to abuse the impingement on rights of other.

2) A clear path for those who've been infringed to gather and respond to threats long before they become real.

Presidential edicts, stacked omnibus bills, bureaucratic institutions with too much power (the FDA. ATF) are an obvious barrier.

People here on this little forum care about vaping, and probably other things too. For me - I have come to care more about what's next in the prohibitionist focus, and where my efforts as an individual are best used to stop that... So far:

1) Being very informed and making good political choices based on time invested in researching candidates rather than coming in at the last minute to vote.

2) Knowing what organizations represent peoples rights regardless of what is being infringed and giving them some money and airplay in my circle of influence. The right press, the right political groups (alternate or not), the right activists and judges...

3) Giving up my own selfish fight against other people's rights. For instance, if my neighbors dog is a nuisance, I'm not seeking to ban all barking dogs everywhere to solve that one problem no matter how effective it is - not supporting people who think that way (like Facebook, Reddit, Bloomberg et al).

4) Ranting in the right places to vent my anger (rant specific forums, etc) and knowing what I don't know by doing real research on the issues with humility.

I hope we all get some peace from this increasing atmosphere of imposed will.

AD

 

[Kai'ckul]

Agree or not on your premise, I feel your anger and sense of being attacked OP.

Personally, I believe there's a too-easy path available to special interests wishing to impose their will: prohibition. That's not only corporate, but political and even societal zealots that abuse it as a means to enforce opinion. There are legitimate times when giving up a right betters society as a whole. But man, those are very, very, very rare and should be treated as such.

Stopping groups from having their rights attacked (gun rights, vape rights, abortion rights, gay rights...) means having:

1) A system that makes it very, very hard for anyone and everyone to abuse the impingement on rights of other.

2) A clear path for those who've been infringed to gather and respond to threats long before they become real.

Presidential edicts, stacked omnibus bills, bureaucratic institutions with too much power (the FDA. ATF) are an obvious barrier.

People here on this little forum care about vaping, and probably other things too. For me - I have come to care more about what's next in the prohibitionist focus, and where my efforts as an individual are best used to stop that... So far:

1) Being very informed and making good political choices based on time invested in researching candidates rather than coming in at the last minute to vote.

2) Knowing what organizations represent peoples rights regardless of what is being infringed and giving them some money and airplay in my circle of influence. The right press, the right political groups (alternate or not), the right activists and judges...

3) Giving up my own selfish fight against other people's rights. For instance, if my neighbors dog is a nuisance, I'm not seeking to ban all barking dogs everywhere to solve that one problem no matter how effective it is - not supporting people who think that way (like Facebook, Reddit, Bloomberg et al).

4) Ranting in the right places to vent my anger (rant specific forums, etc) and knowing what I don't know by doing real research on the issues with humility.

I hope we all get some peace from this increasing atmosphere of imposed will.

AD

I've re-read your post several times and I'm still unclear on what particular stance you take on these issues. All I care about is that we've all posted on the same thread...in response to a post begun in this thread. Socialism sucks and is here to stay in the US & on a Global level. Enjoy personal freedoms like vaping while they last...when that's over, I'm walking out--going to the nearest forest and chilling out away from humanity. I'm sure they'll locate me eventually...they are good at that. I don't take any vape products into nature. However, trash seems to show up everywhere...

 

[Ed Brown]

@vapeonlife: I never intended for my responses to be seen as an attack, and I regret that they were seen that way. I was coming from the position of testing, probing, and proving assertions, and it doesn't seem that this will bear any fruit. Therefore I am making an exit from this conversation.

Good luck, no hard feelings.

 

[Aerodan]

I've re-read your post several times and I'm still unclear on what particular stance you take on these issues.

Boiled way way down: banning things is lazy and damaging. It should be much harder and it's become much too easy. I went Libertarian, but woods and a backpack... yeah I see doing that.

 

[Vandal]

Big Tobacco has jumped on the vape wagon to a degree. If only their products are approved via PMTA, I would be suspicious. But I look more to Big Pharma, since vaping is a much more successful avenue to quitting than any of their "quit smoking" products and so cuts an enormous swath through their profits. Both industries have the money and pull to get what they want from any agency and politician. I don't know how else to explain all the anti-vape junk science and propaganda.

 

[Z-Lee]

All I'll add is, follow the money and you will find your answers.

 

[Big Mac]

The most recent news I've gotten from a few folks that own Vape Stores, has been that some of their semi-local fellow owners have sold out, at a very good profit (more than would be expected), to big tobacco. The big tobacco players are watching profits drop, sales drop and have decided that they need to replace cigs with something. Vaping.....built in customers and alot of smokers that will be converted to vaping once they lock down a large portion of the market. Them buying up good vape locations seem to make sense to me.

A few yrs down the road it wouldn't surprise me at all to see some of the iconic tobacco flavors hit the selves of their shops, even though they are being outlawed more and more.

 

[Topwater Elvis]

It is all about the " missing " tobacco master settlement agreement money..
The FDA is just the 'tool' being used.



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