The rest of the story-Professor Michael Siegels blog, the MAYO clinic lies

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NorthOfAtlanta

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I'm wondering when the ANTZ are going to figure out that posting articles like this are doing them no good. I just read through the comments and there are zero backing it. There are close to 20 that have links to the studies he says don't exist and all it does is give the e-cig side another chance to prove they lie.

:p
 

Frankenmizer

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As a vaper, I really dislike having to rain on that parade, but the last paragraph of the Tribune article pretty much nails it:

With the data available now, Mayo Clinic does not recommend the use of e-cigarettes. At this time, we simply don't know enough about them. They have not been proven safe, nor have they been shown to be effective in helping people stop smoking. -- Jon Ebbert, M.D., Nicotine Dependence Center, Mayo Clinic, Rochester, Minn.

The operative phrase is, "With the data available now..."

The flaw in the Tribune piece is:

The manufacturers claim that e-cigarettes are a safe alternative to tobacco cigarettes.

That implies all manufacturers claim safety. It only takes one to not claim it (dirt easy to find a ton of those), and that premise falls down hard.

That mistake doesn't invalidate the article, though. Just that part.


If we want to make the case for vaping, and all of us on ECF would like that I'd hope, demand bulletproof science.

Right now it's Strawman vs Strawman.

Remember though, that bulletproof science may yield the opposite conclusion of what we hope for.

Sorry - I'm serious when I say that I really really dislike being a contrarian on this topic. My life experience has often taught me that what I want or hope to be true, sometimes isn't.
 
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MonkInsane

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As a vaper, I really dislike having to rain on that parade, but the last paragraph of the Tribune article pretty much nails it:

With the data available now, Mayo Clinic does not recommend the use of e-cigarettes. At this time, we simply don't know enough about them. They have not been proven safe, nor have they been shown to be effective in helping people stop smoking. -- Jon Ebbert, M.D., Nicotine Dependence Center, Mayo Clinic, Rochester, Minn.

The operative phrase is, "With the data available now..."

The flaw in the Tribune piece is:

The manufacturers claim that e-cigarettes are a safe alternative to tobacco cigarettes.

That implies all manufacturers claim safety. It only takes one to not claim it (dirt easy to find a ton of those), and that premise falls down hard.

That mistake doesn't invalidate the article, though. Just that part.


If we want to make the case for vaping, and all of us on ECF would like that I'd hope, demand bulletproof science.

Right now it's Strawman vs Strawman.

Remember though, that bulletproof science may yield the opposite conclusion of what we hope for.

Sorry - I'm serious when I say that I really really dislike being a contrarian on this topic. My life experience has often taught me that what I want or hope to be true, sometimes isn't.

Are you kidding me? The entire article is full of lies! There are plenty of studies showing that e-cigs are a hell of a lot (I don't remember the exact percentage, but it is somewhere above 95% ) safer than normal cigarettes, and about on par with NRT.

Yes, there are some unknowns, but I think we can all agree that Ecigs are a ton safer than cigarettes, and a hell of a lot more effective than the gum or inhaler. You sound like you support all these falacies!

Also there is enough data available to say that E-cigs are an effective means of getting off cigarettes. FFS, all they had to do was open up the ECF website to get thousands, hundred of thousands of testimonials. I mean, I quit cigarettes in 2 days after getting my E-Cig! 2 Days, after smoking a pack a day for 6 years! I have tried quitting so many times before and I had pretty much given up on the idea, then I got my E-Cig! and Boom, quit in 2 days with no difficulty whatsoever.
 
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Bill Godshall

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Please note that Jon Ebbert (at Mayo who wrote the crap about e-cigs that Seigel properly criticized, and that Stan Glantz has praised) has been deceitfully misrepresenting the scientific evidence and demonizing smokefree alternatives for more than a decade.

Back in 2007 or 2008, Ebbert chaired the National Spit Tobacco Conference (an annual event funded by CDC, NCI, drug companies and Legacy to demonize smokeless tobacco products).

After being sent the preliminary conference agenda (that included about 35 presentations trashing smokeless tobacco products and companies), I contacted Jon Ebbert (who was on my e-mail list for more than a decade) and asked him if I could present the epidemiological evidence on smokeless tobacco (finding that it is 99% less hazardous than cigarettes) and survey/market research evidence finding that several million male smokers in Sweden and the US had quit smoking by switching to smokeless tobacco, which I had recently coauthored a report on at
HRJ | Full text | Tobacco harm reduction: an alternative cessation strategy for inveterate smokers

Of course, Ebbert refused to allow me (or any other THR advocate) to present at his conference, as only people who were going to lie about and trash smokeless tobacco were invited/permitted to present.

Ebbert also has made lots of money promoting FDA approved drugs as the only effective way to quit tobacco use, a conflict of interest he failed to acknowledge in his rant against e-cigs.
 
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DC2

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If we want to make the case for vaping, and all of us on ECF would like that I'd hope, demand bulletproof science.
You can't prove that anything is safe. And when I say anything I mean anything.
The whole idea of "bulletproof" goes right out the window once you understand that truism.

Any demand for such impossible standards only helps promote the ANTZ lies and propaganda machine.
 

MonkInsane

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If we want to make the case for vaping, and all of us on ECF would like that I'd hope, demand bulletproof science.

And how do you intend to do that? Nothing in this life is bulletproof.

For example, coffee (more specifically caffeine) - yet coffee is perfectly acceptable.

And how can you even argue that when cigarettes do so much more damage and is still freely available, neigh protected by the very people that want to take a 99% safer alterternative to smoking off the market?

The question should not be is ECigs 100% safe, but rather - What would you rather have people smoking, Cigarettes or E-Cigs??

The key phrase here is Harm Reduction, E-Cigs are a Harm Reduction product, nowhere do they claim that they eliminate the harm completely. Sure, they eliminate 99% of the harm but in the end the possibility of harm is still there. But I can promise you they cause tons less harm than cigarettes.
 
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ClippinWings

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I'm wondering when the ANTZ are going to figure out that posting articles like this are doing them no good. I just read through the comments and there are zero backing it. There are close to 20 that have links to the studies he says don't exist and all it does is give the e-cig side another chance to prove they lie.

:p

good god, reading the comments is hilarious...

The article, it's authors, and their lies got absolutely Skewered
 
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