The trend in PG/VG composition
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i can take a guess:
PG is widely used in the pharmaceutical industry as a carrier for the inhalation of various compounds as vapor. So, I suppose, it has been tested and approved for that application by the FDA.
No clue, but I think IT SUCKS. I have to vape 84% PG because VG renders me incapable of breathing! I already had a problem with all the 70/30s, 50/50s, but now I see all this high VG crap, and I just shake my head; they are NEVER getting any of MY money!
Andria
i diy my own at 70vg.
i once used 90-95%vg but i chain vape and found it made my lungs "heavy", mind u thats vaping 20mls + /day.
im using a different now vg so i will test w/higher vg to see if it effects me.
for flavor i think recipe and flavor ingredients have more todo w/taste.
i once used 90-95%vg but i chain vape and found it made my lungs "heavy", mind u thats vaping 20mls + /day.
im using a different now vg so i will test w/higher vg to see if it effects me.
for flavor i think recipe and flavor ingredients have more todo w/taste.
Katya my love, may I please draw your attention to : SIDS initial assessment profile of Glycerol - http://www.inchem.org/documents/sids/sids/56815.pdf
"The weight of evidence indicates that glycerol is of low toxicity when ingested, inhaled or in contact with the skin." (page 3)
"For occupational exposure to glycerol mist, typically an exposure limit is applied based on the low toxicity of the aerosol. This value is 10 mg/m3 as an 8-hour time weighted average." (Belgium, Netherlands, Ireland, USA, UK) (page 10)
"Glycerol is phosphorylated to alpha-glycerophosphate by glycerol kinase predominantly in the liver (80-90%) and kidneys (10-20%) and incorporated into the standard metabolic pathways to form glucose and glycogen (Tao 1983, Lin 1977). Glycerol kinase is also found in the intestinal mucosa, brown adipose tissue lymphatic tissue, lung and pancreas." (page 12)
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Sprague-Dawley rats (10/sex/treatment) were exposed nose-only to a respirable aerosol of glycerol during 14 days (5 days/week, 6 hours/day). The mean exposure concentrations achieved were 0, 1000, 1930 and 3910 mg/m3. The mass median aerodynamic diameter (MMAD) was reported to be < 1.5 micrometres. Two males at 1000mg/m3 and 1 male and 1 female at 2000mg/m3 died (which were incidental to the treatment). Body weight gain was decreased in all treated animals. This effect may be attributed to stress due to nose-only exposure." (page 15)
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"In a further study by the same authors using a similar protocol....of glycerol at measured concentrations of 0, 33, 165 and 662 mg/m3 led to decreased triglyceride levels in males at 33 (34%) and 165 mg/m3 (22%). This effect appears to be of little toxicological significance as there was no dose-response relationship and was seen in males only. There were no treatment related effects on cageside observations, haematology, organs weights or gross pathology.
Microscopic evaluation of the tissues showed “minimal” (10 animals) or “mild” (one animal) squamous metaplasia of the epiglottis in 11 animals in total at the highest concentration. Since the effect on triglycerides did not show a relationship with concentration, was seen in males only and in the absence of any systemic target organ toxicity, the biological relevance of this effect is not considered to be of toxicological significance. Based on an increased incidence of "minimal" to "mild" squamous metaplasia of the epiglottis, the NOAEC for local irritant effects to the upper respiratory tract is 165mg/m3 and 662mg/m3 for systemic effects (Anderson 1950, Renne 1992)." (page 16)
"For inhalation exposure, irritant effects were observed at 662 mg/m3. No other target organ involvement was identified. The NOAEL for local effects on the respiratory tract following exposure by inhalation is 165 mg/m3." (page 18)
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In addition to the data above, it should also be noted that Glycerine has been used as a moisturizer in tobacco cigarettes and cigars for decades to keep the tobacco bits from drying out into dust. No disease has ever been attributed to aerosolized glycerine in a cigarette. So I would say, Glycerine MAY be actually safer than PG, which is metabolized in part into lactic acid (same lactic acid that causes sore muscles after exercise).
Sorry, I never meant to suggest that VG is more (or less) harmful than PG. Both are fine, honestly, and quite similar--a sugar (alcohol) molecule is a sugar (alcohol) molecule... They both are recognized and easily metabolized by our bodies. I like PG for its antimicrobial and antifungal properties and I feel safer having it in my eliquids (I'm pretty sure nothing will grow in them with PG present). All I meant to say was that there have been more studies to date (and wider industrial and medical applications) for PG than VG--AFAIK. Or maybe I've seen more of them.
PG is used in cigarettes also.
It's all good--I like and use both, but my nicotine bases are always a mix of both, for the reasons mentioned above.
See also:
http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/reregistration/REDs/propylene_glycol_red.pdf
Air Sanitizers | Pesticides | US EPA
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I've never observed anything in myself that would suggest any allergy or irritation from glycerine; in fact, when I started using neutrogena soap on my face when I was about 18, I observed that my severe acne actually improved somewhat, and the skin on my face seemed "eased," not so irritated, and the skin on my whole body was less tight, less dry, altogether more comfortable.
However, when I try to inhale glycerine in my ejuice at anything more than 16%, I observe quite a few serious symptoms; at 20% VG, I have massive congestion in my throat and around my vocal cords; at 25%-30% VG, I feel as if I have a hairball in my lungs that I can't cough up no matter how hard I try. At 35% VG, I wake from deep sleep with such a serious asthma attack that it's difficult to inhale even from my rescue inhaler. Thus ended my experiments with higher levels of VG.
So don't tell me that VG is "less hazardous" than PG -- it depends very much on the exposure, and the type of exposure; topically it would seem beneficial, or at worst, completely inert, but I find it astonishing that any human lungs are capable of dealing with it, it's such a thick and heavy semi-liquid.
Andria
However, when I try to inhale glycerine in my ejuice at anything more than 16%, I observe quite a few serious symptoms; at 20% VG, I have massive congestion in my throat and around my vocal cords; at 25%-30% VG, I feel as if I have a hairball in my lungs that I can't cough up no matter how hard I try. At 35% VG, I wake from deep sleep with such a serious asthma attack that it's difficult to inhale even from my rescue inhaler. Thus ended my experiments with higher levels of VG.
So don't tell me that VG is "less hazardous" than PG -- it depends very much on the exposure, and the type of exposure; topically it would seem beneficial, or at worst, completely inert, but I find it astonishing that any human lungs are capable of dealing with it, it's such a thick and heavy semi-liquid.
Andria
This kind of changes of VG and PG composition is brought to us by the innovation of Atomizers as well. The way we vape before is just thru basic atomizers and when people chase for better clouds, that's the time the Atomizer evolve to RDA and RBA which is directed towards making big clouds thus higher VG ratio.
But I have my PG and VG from hiliq and i mix it by myself. I found out from them that the best mix is 70%PG30%VG, then that's my usual mix now
Thanks, Katya, for letting me piggypack on your post to kinda 'post to the masses'. I've been vaping 90%VG for years, so it's a topic of interest to me.
I think the reason we don't see more about VG is because it's pretty old hat as far as safety, what can the Antis say about it? nada. But PG is like - omg, anni fright! and so it's been researched more and poked and prodded. While we sit back and laugh because we know, yup, they're both alcohol sugars and, yup, they're both already in cigarettes LOL !
Eliquids with PG and VG in complimentary concentrations should have short- and long-term protection against any stray bad guys. VG is probably as strong a bacteriostatic as PG, but it's a slower acting one, so VG would never make it to, like, bacterial handsoap status, but it's a great long-term soak medium.
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here's two studies that are boring enough to put anyone to sleep, but maybe interesting?
from pg 11 summation (data followed): Litsky, Libbey and Mariani, Jr., 1971:
"2. Glycerine was found to be bacteriostatic and bactericidal at various concentrations against Pseudomonas aeruginosa, Escherichia coli, Salmonella typhimurium and Staphylococcus aureus."
http://www.aciscience.org/docs/Ster...al_Activity_of_Commercial_Grade_Glycerine.pdf
from page 207, 2008 Belgian research, (more data):
"Temperature seems to have an important effect on the survival time in glycerol, especially when comparing incubation at 24C or 36C with 4C...
survival time in glycerol 85% was shorter than in glycerol 50% for the P.aeruginosa group, staphylococci, and Bacillus species."
Short- and long-term bacterial inhibiting effect of high concentrations of glycerol used in the preservation of skin allografts (PDF Download Available)
I think the reason we don't see more about VG is because it's pretty old hat as far as safety, what can the Antis say about it? nada. But PG is like - omg, anni fright! and so it's been researched more and poked and prodded. While we sit back and laugh because we know, yup, they're both alcohol sugars and, yup, they're both already in cigarettes LOL !
Eliquids with PG and VG in complimentary concentrations should have short- and long-term protection against any stray bad guys. VG is probably as strong a bacteriostatic as PG, but it's a slower acting one, so VG would never make it to, like, bacterial handsoap status, but it's a great long-term soak medium.
---
here's two studies that are boring enough to put anyone to sleep, but maybe interesting?
from pg 11 summation (data followed): Litsky, Libbey and Mariani, Jr., 1971:
"2. Glycerine was found to be bacteriostatic and bactericidal at various concentrations against Pseudomonas aeruginosa, Escherichia coli, Salmonella typhimurium and Staphylococcus aureus."
http://www.aciscience.org/docs/Ster...al_Activity_of_Commercial_Grade_Glycerine.pdf
from page 207, 2008 Belgian research, (more data):
"Temperature seems to have an important effect on the survival time in glycerol, especially when comparing incubation at 24C or 36C with 4C...
survival time in glycerol 85% was shorter than in glycerol 50% for the P.aeruginosa group, staphylococci, and Bacillus species."
Short- and long-term bacterial inhibiting effect of high concentrations of glycerol used in the preservation of skin allografts (PDF Download Available)
sounds more like an allergic reaction even though for topical use u were fine.
i have hayfever, pollen can touch my skin but if i inhale it my body doesnt like it.
If it were allergy, I wouldn't be able to use it at all, but I use 16% and have no issues. Also, I take a Zyrtec *every* morning, so it would surprise me a great deal to have any allergic reaction to *anything* -- I am *violently* allergic to cats, but that daily Zyrtec enables me to live with one quite happily.
I am not allergic to glycerine, but I cannot breathe it in any high concentration. I just finished doing the dishes and cleaning my stainless sinks, which were sprayed twice, heavily, with bleach -- no breathing trouble whatsoever, though I was standing right over it and got an itchy nose. One would think that bleach would be a far more formidable challenge to asthmatic lungs than simple glycerine. It's got to be the high viscosity; at only 16% in my ejuice, the ejuice is very thin.
Here in Atlanta, in the summer, the air is very thick with humidity -- it feels a great deal to me like trying to breathe jello. Because the air becomes viscous with all the moisture in it. Without AC, I can't breathe at all.
Andria
Right.
No argument. I just want to add that glycerol has no anti-fungal properties at all and, like you said, its antimicrobial properties are a bit more sluggish than PG's. But they are there.
Having said that, I couldn't vape high percentage VG eliquids to save my life--VG makes me, if you excuse the expression, rather phlegmy...
So yeah, I'm a little biased.
Good talking to you. I haven't had a spirited debate about PG vs VG since... 2011?
Lots of us aren't looking for that cigarette like throat hit anymore as well. High VG is an all around much smoother vape than the high PG stuff. I started with 70%PG and I'm at the opposite end now, everything I buy is 70% or higher VG. It's just more pleasant to me.
Today i went into a local shop to buy some batteries and asked if they did anything other than max vg juices (since thats what i've always got there) and he looks at me like im crazy and says "You like vaping glycol!?" I replied yeah i have problems with dry hits in my RTA when using the thicker juices and never had any allergic reactions to PG. Had me worried about it till i came on here and read up on it. My favorite mixes are 60vg/40pg.
I'm tired of all the vender refomulating their blends to max VG or a 70/30 mix. Just to to please the cloud chasers. Me I'm perfectly happy vaping 50/50, or a 60/40. Anything higher in VG just gives me dry hits on my RTA
I'll stick with my 70pg/30vg ratio until I die . . . or quit vaping.
As with Katya, vg over 30-35% also makes me "phlegmy".
As with Katya, vg over 30-35% also makes me "phlegmy".
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