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The Ultimate TCR List

Discussion in 'Temperature Control' started by Jalcide, Dec 22, 2015.

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  1. Jalcide

    Jalcide Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 10, 2015
    The ultimate TCR list -- The kick off.

    I created this to help de-clutter some other ECF threads, and so that we can have a focused discussion.

    It's for mods that employ linear, single-value TCR approximations (not .csv breakpoint curves).

    I'll keep this first post updated as consensus matures in the thread below.

    Where there were discrepancies, I cited the sources. It's up to you to decide which values to try.

    Nickel DH: "0704" [0.007036]

    Ni200: "0600" [0.00600] (According to Steam-Engine.org)
    Ni200: "0620" [0.00620] (According to @DJLsbVapes and other various sources)

    Nifethal 70 (Alloy120): "0525" [0.00525]

    NiFe30 (StealthVape): "0500" [0.00500]

    Tungsten: "0450" [0.00450]

    Nifethal 52 (Alloy52): "0404" [0.004036]

    NiFe (Reactor Wire): "0400" [0.00400]

    TitaniumGrade1: "0366" [0.00366] (According to Steam-Engine.org)
    TitaniumGrade1: "0350" [0.00350] (According to the SX Mini Manual, @DJLsbVapes and other various sources)

    TitaniumGrade2: "0353" [0.003525]

    NiFe30 (Resistherm): "0320" [0.00320]

    SS410: "0155" [0.00155]

    SS430: "0138" [0.00138]

    Invar 36 / Nilo 36 / Pernifer 36: "0112" [0.001116]

    SS304: "0102" [0.001016] (According to Steam-Engine)
    SS304: "0105" [0.00105] (According to @DJLsbVapes and other various sources)

    SS316L: "0088" [0.000879] (According to Steam-Engine)
    SS316L: "0092" [0.00092] (According to @DJLsbVapes and other various sources)

    SS316: "0088" [0.00088] (According to Steam-Engine.org)
    SS316: "0092" [0.000915] (According to @DJLsbVapes and other various sources)

    SS317L: "0094" [0.00094] (According to Steam-Engine.org)
    SS317L: "0088" [0.00088] (According to @DJLsbVapes and other various sources)

    SS317: "0088" [0.000875] (According to @DJLsbVapes)
     
    • Like Like x 20
  2. Wingsfan0310

    Wingsfan0310 Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 2, 2013
    Flat Rock, MI, USA
    Which source do you think is more accurate?

    Cheers,
    Steve

    PS I almost forgot to say thanks! I think having it all in one place is a great idea.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  3. Jalcide

    Jalcide Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 10, 2015
    My gut feeling (how's that for scientific), is that Steam Engine would be the most accurate. The attention to detail required to develop a webapp like that, etc.

    There's variance in wires of course, so it may not be a one-size-fits-all.

    That said, I have a lot of respect for DJLsbVapes, and he has done real-world measurements with many of the values he has posted. In particular his SS316L value.

    Also, with the Titanium Grade 1, I've noticed that the VTC Mini's default Ti mode appears to be closer to 350, than 366. And I'm finding I like 350 better, at the moment. So in this case the Steam Engine one is not what I'm using.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  4. Jalcide

    Jalcide Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 10, 2015
    Since ECF won't allow me to edit the original post past a certain time, the updates have to be "bumped" like this.

    Additions or changes since last update will have a :headbang: icon next to them:

    Nickel DH: 0.007036
    Joyetech Format: 0704

    Ni200: 0.00600 (According to Steam-Engine.org)
    Joyetech Format: 0600
    Reliant/SXK Format: 69

    Ni200: 0.00620 (According to @DJLsbVapes and other sources)
    Joyetech Format: 0620

    Ni200, Curve Accurate @ 230C/450F: 0.0054 (According to @TheBloke) :headbang: Newly Added
    Joyetech Format: 0540
    Reliant/SXK Format: 62

    Nifethal 70 (Alloy120): 0.00525
    Joyetech Format: 0525

    Kanthal NiFe70: 0.0052 (According to @TheBloke) :headbang: Newly Added
    Joyetech Format: 0520
    Reliant/SXK Format: 59

    NiFe30 (StealthVape): 0.00500
    Joyetech Format: 0500

    Iron: 0.00500 :headbang: Newly Added
    Joyetech Format: 0500

    Tungsten: 0.00450
    Joyetech Format: 0450

    Tungsten, the Atlus by Guo Coil-less Tank's CVU "chip" (a trace wire heating element encased in ceramic): 0.0031 (According to its developer @DavidGuo) :headbang: Newly Added
    Joyetech Format: 0310

    Nifethal 52 (Alloy52): 0.004036
    Joyetech Format: 0404

    Kanthal NiFe52: 0.004 (According to @TheBloke) :headbang: Newly Added
    Joyetech Format: 0400
    Reliant/SXK Format: 46

    NiFe (Reactor Wire): 0.00400
    Joyetech Format: 0400

    Platinum: 0.00392 :headbang: Newly Added
    Joyetech Format: 0392

    TitaniumGrade1: 0.00366 (According to Steam-Engine.org)
    Joyetech Format: 0366

    TitaniumGrade1: 0.00350 (According to the SX Mini Manual, @DJLsbVapes, @TheBloke, other sources)
    Joyetech Format: 0350
    Reliant/SXK Format: 40

    TitaniumGrade1 Balazsk's Special "Dry Burning" TCR used with a temp of 230C to 300C (For Dry Burn Cleaning Not Vaping): 0.00725 (According to @balazsk) :headbang: Newly Added

    TitaniumGrade2: 0.003525
    Joyetech Format: 0353

    Silver: 0.00380 :headbang: Newly Added
    Joyetech Format: 0380

    Gold: 0.00340 :headbang: Newly Added
    Joyetech Format: 0340

    NiFe30 (Resistherm): 0.00320
    Joyetech Format: 0320
    Reliant/SXK Format: 37

    SS410: 0.00155
    Joyetech Format: 0155

    SS430: 0.00138
    Joyetech Format: 0138
    Reliant/SXK Format: 15 (As tested by @f1vefour)

    Invar 36 / Nilo 36 / Pernifer 36: 0.001116
    Joyetech Format: 0112

    SS304: 0.001016 (According to Steam-Engine)
    Joyetech Format: 0102

    SS304: 0.00105 (According to @DJLsbVapes and other sources)
    Joyetech Format: 0105

    SS304 @ 230C/450F: 0.00105 (According to @TheBloke) :headbang: Newly Added
    Joyetech Format: 0105
    Reliant/SXK Format: 12

    SS316L: 0.000879 (According to Steam-Engine)
    Joyetech Format: 0088

    SS316L: 0.00092 (According to @DJLsbVapes and other sources)
    Joyetech Format: 0092

    SS316: 0.00088 (According to Steam-Engine.org)
    Joyetech Format: 0088

    SS316: 0.000915 (According to @DJLsbVapes and other sources)
    Joyetech Format: 0092

    SS316 @ 230C/450F: 0.000913 (According to @TheBloke) :headbang: Newly Added
    Joyetech Format: 0091
    Reliant/SXK Format: 10

    SS317L: 0.00094 (According to Steam-Engine.org)
    Joyetech Format: 0094

    SS317L: 0.00088 (According to @DJLsbVapes and other sources)
    Joyetech Format: 0088

    SS317: 0.000875 (According to @DJLsbVapes)
    Joyetech Format: 0088

    Nichrome: 0.00040 (According to @DJLsbVapes) :headbang: Newly Added
    Joyetech Format: 0040

    Nichrome N60 (C): 0.000178 :headbang: Newly Added
    Joyetech Format: 0018

    Nichrome N80 (A): 0.000112 :headbang: Newly Added
    Joyetech Format: 0011
     
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  5. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 1, 2012
    USA
    Thanks for updating!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. whitewidows

    whitewidows Full Member

    Dec 30, 2014
    Aurora, IL, 'merica
    EFC's rule on editing op's is just ignorant. I've had several I wanted to update but couldn't. Makes finding info easily impossible. I wrote a mod several times but never got a reply

    Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
     
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  7. NGGrant

    NGGrant Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 15, 2015
    Richmond VA
    This should be a sticky
     
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  8. Shigura

    Shigura Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 26, 2015
    Lincoln, NE
    Awesome work to put up a list with including SXK values as well. Been a bit in the dark but I've had quite a bit of experience with TCR adjustment with various mods. Wanted to try out Nickel Purity and it was a bit different. So from looking at the values it's pretty spot on as that's pretty much what I've set them at (meant for SS).
     
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  9. BigEgo

    BigEgo Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 12, 2013
    Alabama
    Steam-engine's value for Ti (.00366) is the most reliable value. They got their data from a 1950's Ames laboratory report prepared by Iowa State University in conjunction with the Atomic Energy Commission. In this report, the researchers used three different specimens of Ti of varying purity. Specimen #1 is probably slightly more pure than our grade 1, but not enough of a difference to really matter. Based on their tables, I ran the numbers and got the following for "specimen 1":

    At 189°C (372°F) the TCR is 0.003686

    At 221°C (430°F) the TCR is 0.003681

    At 233°C (451°F) the TCR is 0.003672

    At 247°C (476°F) the TCR is 0.003685

    At 258°C (496°F) the TCR is 0.003667

    At 270°C (518°F) the TCR is 0.003661

    At 287°C (549°F) the TCR is 0.003669

    At 301°C (574°F) the TCR is 0.003659

    The average of all these values is .0036725. If you vape at 450°F (233°C), then your TCR will need to be .00367. If you vape at 500°F (260°C) or above, then the standard value of .00366 is best.

    NI-200:

    According to this spec sheet from "Special Metals Corporation" the TCR for Ni-200 is 0.0052 at 200°C (392°F) and 0.0061 at 300°C (572°F). I did the calculations based on their resistance/temperature table on page 1. So, most likely the TCR is closer to .0055 for our usual vaping range than it is to .006. if you vape near the max temp, then .006 is probably more accurate.

    Stainless Steel:


    The data we have for SS alloys comes from the Cindas Report which was done at Purdue University in 1977 on behalf of the American Iron and Steel Institute. In this report they tested the TCR of 304, 304L, 316, 317, 321, 347, 410, 430.

    The problem with this report is they used the Kelvin scale and went from room temperature (293K) to 300K (80°F) to 350K (170°F) to 400K (260°F) to 500K (440°F) to 600K (620°F). So, there's a large gap in the data for our "vaping range." The only value in our vaping range is the 500K (440°F) temp. In any case I ran the numbers for 316 (not "L") and got the following:

    316 SS:

    At 76.85°C (170.3°F) the TCR is 0.0010012

    At 226.85°C (440.3°F) the TCR is 0.0009148

    At 326.85°C (620.3°F) the TCR is 0.0008703

    So, if you vape near 450°F, then the standard value we see of .00092 is correct. If you vape above 500°F, then you'll need to adjust it a bit (around .00088 or .00089).

    317 SS:

    317 SS is almost identical to 316, so the values will be very close to 316. I am not going to bother running the numbers.

    430 SS:

    We have the same problem here we have with 316 -- the report doesn't have many values in our vaping range (400-600F). In any case, I will run the closest numbers:

    At 126.85°C (260.3°F) the TCR is 0.001357

    At At 226.85°C (440.3°F) the TCR is 0.001379

    At 326.85°C (620.3°F) the TCR is 0.001408

    So, if you vape near 230°C (450°F), then you'll want a TCR of .00138, which is the TCR steam-engine recommends.
     
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  10. Jalcide

    Jalcide Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 10, 2015
    Awesome work and back stories, BigEgo! Thanks for this.

    Let's think about how to work these into the list. Like you have it broken-down, or averaged across the vaping range? No need to answer now. Think about it.

    Also, I'd like to include real-world water test TCRs of known wire brands on various known devices, too.

    I'm finding very interesting results.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. BigEgo

    BigEgo Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 12, 2013
    Alabama
    John (engineer at Evolv) provided instructions on a quick and dirty method of finding the TCR of wire at home. I will quote him:

    There's a better way to do this.

    Get a decent thermometer or thermocouple, a glass flask, a heater (or do it on the stove) and some oil.

    Run wires extension wires (kanthal is best of the easily available stuff, it has a very very small TCR) to the coil and back to the DNA 200.

    Fire up atomizer analyzer. Short the kanthal together at the far end to get the resistance of the kanthal and mod. Then connect the kanthal to the coil under test.

    Put the coil in the flask, fill the flask with the mineral oil and put the thermometer measuring the oil temperature. Put the whole apparatus on the stove.

    Don't start a fire. Use an oil with a high flash point and low conductivity. Silicone oil works best, but it is a bit spendy. Transmission fluid works if you keep it under 450F or so.

    You can use this sort of setup to generate a TCR curve for anything with a little care and practice. The oil is easy to measure, and it keeps the coil at a nice uniform temperature. Stir the oil so you don't get hotspots and don't set your thermometer on the heated bottom.
    Keep in mind that the TCR will vary a lot depending on temp. So, boiling water won't work -- it doesn't get hot enough. You will need a liquid that is non conductive and that you can heat to at least 500°F without it catching on fire. He recommends silicone oil if you can afford it, or transmission oil if you want to use something cheap.
     
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  12. AtmizrOpin

    AtmizrOpin Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    May 18, 2015
    Pennsylvania
    finding 410 SS wire in the right diameter is harder to find than....something hard to find.
     
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  13. Jalcide

    Jalcide Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 10, 2015
    Thanks again. I'm going to look into a proper silicon oil testing rig like you've described.

    Meantime, on the usefulness of water testing, how far off + or - would you guess the error would be from 212F to 450F (or 500F, or 550F)?

    Let's make the following impossible assumptions, to just focus the heart of the question:

    1) the mod's display of temp is identical to its internal notion of temp when firing.
    2) it's okay for the TCR to be wrong as long as the mod thinks it's right. that is to say, it's a "TCR" tuned for one particular mod, atomizer and wire combination.
    3) the temp values displayed on the mod are mean-values and as accurate as possible (they don't jump around too much).
    4) the human reading the values does it perfectly and with the intuition of a Shaolin kung fu master.

    So, if it's just the methodology of "450F extrapolated from 212F" being inaccurate, that happens due to non-linearities (and other things), what would the + or - of error be for some various wires?

    If this is different between alloys, which wire type is the best at translating a water test to its higher temp ranges?

    Which is the worst wire type for this?

    Also, an inverse of the question: If the TCR has been properly tested and found for a given wire, does that mean the inaccuracy works in reverse when translated down to the 212F temp? In other words, should we expect to see water testing be off from 212F on "correct" TCRs?
     
  14. BigEgo

    BigEgo Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 12, 2013
    Alabama
    Depends on the metal being tested. Some have more linear temperature/resistance curves than others.

    Probably wouldn't be that far off, but I can't say specifically.

    Ni-200 is pretty linear, iirc.

    The TCR depends on the temperature. There is no one TCR for any given temperature for most materials. This is why steam-engines value for, say, Ti (.00366) differs from the ones you see on spec sheets (often .0038). The one on spec sheets typically are at 20°C, which isn't what we want. This is also why Evolv introduced TFR curves for better accuracy across temperature ranges. This way the mod can think to itself "OK, the user selected 420F, therefore I need to use TCR X. If the user selects 500F, I need to use TCR Y." Etc.
     
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  15. dleister1981

    dleister1981 Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 16, 2015
    Michigan USA
    thank you for the effort here
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. dleister1981

    dleister1981 Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 16, 2015
    Michigan USA
    Any way to request a sticky on this?
     
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  17. VapingTurtle

    VapingTurtle ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    The way that those values jump at 247C and again at 287C kinda indicate an error either in experimental results or in recording/transposing the data.
     
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  18. BigEgo

    BigEgo Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 12, 2013
    Alabama
    Not necessarily, the TCR is not always linear.
     
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  19. VapingTurtle

    VapingTurtle ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    No it is not always linear. But, when it is not linear it is a smooth curve, not random jumps and dips.
     
  20. Jalcide

    Jalcide Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 10, 2015
    It might be possible because it's based on a linear slope at a particular temperature snapshot, but that's getting averaged together with all the other points for the final slope (or curve). I'm assuming the final curve is somehow averaged from the nearest points? Anyone know how this works? A Derivative, I'm assuming?

    In other words, I can imagine the angle of the linear slope each snapshot has (Tangent Line), potentially having more variance than the x-axis (the Run) of the graph (temp increase). And so it would create the illusion of a "dip" in the data.

    I think that would be called a Secant Line on the graph.

    The changes in slope at each point are happening in the millionth and hundred thousandths decimal places, so it doesn't take much for that angle to vary from sample to sample.
     
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