So for one, you can't truly say there flavor extracts are a vg base, they most likely mix their extracts together for all of their particular recipes as a flavor base in vg already steeped and thinned, the thinning would / should most likely be distilled de-mineralised water from Reverse Osmosis with which the mixologist has spent months trying several different %'s to come up with just one base, so my suggestion would be to try thinning several different bottles @ different %'s and shake until it dissolves completely.
Thinning VG with NO Additives/Water/Vodka
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So for one, you can't truly say there flavor extracts are a vg base, they most likely mix their extracts together for all of their particular recipes as a flavor base in vg already steeped and thinned, the thinning would / should most likely be distilled de-mineralised water from Reverse Osmosis with which the mixologist has spent months trying several different %'s to come up with just one base, so my suggestion would be to try thinning several different bottles @ different %'s and shake until it dissolves completely.
The flavour concentrate is all PG. The 'base' as I'm referring to is the flavourless nic/vg. Which is pre-steeped before flavour is added. I don't doubt these guys doing something to make this happen without dilution. Ever seen what a centrifuge does? Heavier molecules are forced to the bottom of the pipe whilst lighter liquids can be syringed from above? I don't know my science well enough to confidently speak about this even being a relevant piece of equipment to mention, but I'd be super interested if non-dilution methods work.
Put it this way, through Google search and needling through forums, has anyone ever come across a bunch of e-nerds talking about tries and failures regarding laboratory style experiments on this non-dilution issue? I haven't. All I ever find is people throwing back and fourth how much water they use and ratios etc..
Has there really been any chemists out there that have conducted sort of research? I don't see them talking about it online unfortunately. Which makes this a fresh issue to discuss.
I think a lot of people here (as in most/all/everyone) won't take the idea seriously that your vape shop spins all it's VG in a centrifuge and throws out all the heavy stuff, just skimming the light stuff off the top. Assuming VG even separates, which it probably doesn't. As I understand it, there is only one VG molecule. It is not a collection of dissimilar molecules that might separate.
You are also the only person I've ever heard here even suggesting that nicotine needs to be "steeped" into VG. The rest of the world steeps the flavors into the base. The fact that your shop claims to do that is surely raising a lot of eyebrows here.
I am very impressed with their marketing though... wasn't it Einstein who suggested that great marketing is indistinguishable from magic, or did I get that all mixed up?
you seem to think high price means premium since you linked those two together in the first post. Im going to say, based on that fact that you don't always, or even ever, know good juice when you vape it, no good faith here.
You said
"I only buy premium eliquid. I have experienced the harshness that is associated with cheap E liquid and now refuse to buy anything that is below the competitive price of all the best eliquid out there"
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Please it's really no benefit to the subject at hand going into matters that can't be proved. I'm not going to fight my corner over this just because you decided to shut me down over the fact I said I have high standards.
Please guys if there's nothing positive to say then it just becomes a matter of 'who is this guy? What does this new member think he knows about eCigs/juice'. Please guys we can be better than that, I thought this was a friendly place. -_-
I'll go as far as to defend the company I'm talking about, within a few months went from serving customers at the bar, to outputting 20,000 bottles per month to big wholesale clients. They got good juice man. If you don't believe it then I can only hope that other members of the community do, or at least even, keep an open mind for the sake of positively pondering on VG thinning techniques.
No one has suggested they don't have great juice. We are just suggesting you keep an open mind toward their claims of secret sauces...
Let me ask you a question... do you DIY? How much experimenting have you personally done with thinning out your own VG, where you know the source? Which thinners have you tried? (water/pg/alcohol/etc)?
There's no reason to keep the company secret. If their claims are valid, this would be promoting them as well to our many UK members.
I don't really get the claim of 100% VG while the flavor extracts are carried in PG ?
From my experience, using a supercritical fluid tobacco extraction, cold purified nicotine in VG has produced a more smooth, tasteless, refined results, so from there to add VG would keep the smooth (almost non existent) throat hit, but as a result of a VG base comes the loss of being an inferior flavor carrier to PG to which you would need more flavoring. The whole premise behind "thinning" your VG is so it wicks more efficiently, NOT to make it "more smooth" less of a throat hit.
Perhaps their "VG SUPPLIER" does something to the VG to make it thinner, and so the vendor can actually claim they don't add anything, because.......THEY don't.
How the VG gets to them, and from where, and what it consists of, we do not know.
Vneil, wow, 30% flavoring, that's quite a high number.
Absolutely right! The glycerol molecule is C3H8O3. It's very stable, and won't "separate by weight" in a centrifuge, or change its viscosity when mixed in a high-speed blender.
It is, however, hygroscopic. On exposure, VG will easily absorb moisture from the relative humidity in air. So, if a vendor opens the bottle frequently, or lets it stand open while "steeping the nicotine," that 100% glycerin will be picking up extra water, and that would most certainly change the viscosity.
But change it to the level where is thinn as 60/40 mix? Can it really absorb so much from the moisture in the air? I think it would become pretty dirty looking VG if that would happend...
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I perform a lot of extractions and during a vanilla bean extraction I inadvertently thinned VG by heating it to 155F for several hours while under a moderate vacuum. After the VG had cooled back to room temperature it's normal viscosity didn't return, it was almost as thin as PG and stayed that way. Perhaps this was due to the vanilla bean extractives, don't really know.
I've also blended VG with PGA (Pure Grain Alcohol) and used it as a blended solvent for extracting flavor from tobacco. After the extraction is complete I remove (evaporate) -all- the PGA leaving only VG and tobacco flavoring, the VG is never as thick as it originally was. It retains all other properties of VG such as smooth flavor and dense vapor production it just has a thinner consistency.
I've also blended VG with PGA (Pure Grain Alcohol) and used it as a blended solvent for extracting flavor from tobacco. After the extraction is complete I remove (evaporate) -all- the PGA leaving only VG and tobacco flavoring, the VG is never as thick as it originally was. It retains all other properties of VG such as smooth flavor and dense vapor production it just has a thinner consistency.
So basically what you are saying is that prolonged exposure to the heat will somehow change molecular structure of a VG and make it thinner?
If it is so, i believe it would be a good idea to test that thinned VG and see what has changed in the molecular structure, and to check if and how does that affect vaping...
If it is so, i believe it would be a good idea to test that thinned VG and see what has changed in the molecular structure, and to check if and how does that affect vaping...
How dirty it would look would depend on conditions, but it could certainly absorb enough humidity to reduce the VG concentration down to 85% or less. Since PG is almost 50 times more viscous than water, I'd think even a 95/5 VG to water mix could seem as thin as 60VG/40PG, and probably thinner.
From personal experience, it takes at least 10% of H2O to make it look somewhat like 60/40, maybe even more.
To collect so much moisture form the air means it would have to be opened for days and all that moisture would prolly be full of dust and other particles that we found in air.
I have tested VG thinning by prolonged exposure to heat, and it seems to be working. Haven't noticed any changes in TH yet, but it's too soon to confirm anything. Will see after couple weeks if anything changes...
To collect so much moisture form the air means it would have to be opened for days and all that moisture would prolly be full of dust and other particles that we found in air.
I have tested VG thinning by prolonged exposure to heat, and it seems to be working. Haven't noticed any changes in TH yet, but it's too soon to confirm anything. Will see after couple weeks if anything changes...
I think you might be surprised at the amount of moisture glycerin can absorb: many times its starting volume, limited only by the relative humidity, which dictates the point of equilibrium. Here in my part of the world, where the average annual humidity is about 70%, exposed pure glycerin will absorb moisture until it becomes a 70% glycerin solution. In 100% humidity, equilibrium happens when the glycerin falls to 10% of the mix. It's thirsty stuff. Temperature isn't really a factor in this behavior. Even at the boiling point of water, 212F, glycerin will trap it from the atmosphere and hold on tight.
The time taken to get to equilibrium varies by exposed surface area. If you spill a shallow puddle, it can get there in minutes, or it could take days to get there if you uncap a big bottle of VG and let it sit. But if you're agitating and repeatedly exposing, it can go very quickly...and you don't have to go all the way to equilibrium before noticing the effects on viscosity.
It won't absorb dirt from this moisture, though dust can fall in the bottle, of course. Google the Sanakvo process, and you'll learn how they use glycerol-soaked cloth to pull purified water by the gallon out of thin air.
Hmm, interesting i must admit
Wasn't aware that VG is so thirsty, but yeah, that makes thinning VG possible without actual pouring the water or anything else in it.... Hmm... But then again, is it possible for VG to soak up so much of moisture during heating on classic electrical cooker in apartment? I kept it hot (not cooking) for about 45 min and when it cooled off it was thinner. Now you got me intrigued, i'll have to do same thing again but this time i will use sealed container and heat it up again so the only moisture it will be able to absorb is the one that it will be exposed to during pouring into the container and an air gap that i will leave in container.
I was thinking the same thing... if all this long term heating was adding moisture surreptitiously to the VG. Even 5% makes a big difference in how easily it wicks, which was the basis of this thread I think. It is very possible that whatever "secret process" the shop uses to thin its VG, they may be accidentally infusing it with enough water to accomplish their objective. Since it is a secret we will never know, it will all be pure speculation.Hmm, interesting i must admit
Wasn't aware that VG is so thirsty, but yeah, that makes thinning VG possible without actual pouring the water or anything else in it.... Hmm... But then again, is it possible for VG to soak up so much of moisture during heating on classic electrical cooker in apartment? I kept it hot (not cooking) for about 45 min and when it cooled off it was thinner. Now you got me intrigued, i'll have to do same thing again but this time i will use sealed container and heat it up again so the only moisture it will be able to absorb is the one that it will be exposed to during pouring into the container and an air gap that i will leave in container.
It's going to be tough! Even in lab conditions, keeping anhydrous glycerin free of moisture is a major challenge. If a factory-sealed bottle is stored for a year or more, it's likely to have sucked in some water, as if it simply will not be denied. It's one of those properties that makes it a useful substance for so many applications...but it's a bit frustrating for those who would like to use it as a viscosity standard. It gets used for this anyway, but one sort of has to shrug and accept that it simply won't stay perfectly dry unless kept in hard vacuum (or controlled zero humidity, rather).
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