This is what I've been talking about for a year now

Status
Not open for further replies.

markarich159

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Jun 30, 2009
1,169
45
PA, USA
Two to Three years the eliquid/ecig industry has had the opportunity to start self regulating and updating their manufacturing process to some type of standard , at the very least, approaching cGMP.
Here's a copy of a portion of the now infamous FDA letter(s) sent to Johnson Creek(who have touted themselves as having FDA registry and highly tuned Quality control/ Quality assurance measures already in place - well it seems a somewhat recent inspection-within the past year- tells a different story):

Additionally, during our September 1-25, 2009, inspection of your manufacturing facility, Johnson Creek Enterprises, LLC, located at 320 N. Watertown Street, Suite F, Johnson Creek, Wisconsin, investigator(s) from the FDA identified significant violations of Current Good Manufacturing Practice (cGMP) regulations for Finished Pharmaceuticals, Title 21, Code of Federal Regulations, Parts 210 and 211. These violations cause your drug product(s), as described above, to be adulterated within the meaning of section 501(a)(2)(B) of the Act (21 U.S.C. § 351 (a)(2)(B)) in that the methods used in, or the facilities or controls used for, their manufacture, processing, packing, or holding do not conform to, or are not operated or administered in conformity with, cGMP. Specific violations observed during the inspection include, but are not limited, to the following:
CGMP Violations
Your firm has not established a quality control unit having the responsibility and authority to approve and reject all components, drug product containers, closure, in-process materials, packaging materials, labeling and drug products, and the authority to review production records to assure that no errors have occurred (21 C.F.R. § 211.22(a)). For example, your firm has not established a quality control unit. Personnel with quality control unit responsibility have not been designated.
1. Your firm does not test each batch of drug product to determine conformance with final specifications (21 C.F.R. § 211.165(a)). Specifically, your firm does not test each batch of drug product prior to release.
2. Your firm has not established written procedures designed to prevent microbiological contamination of drug products not required to be sterile (21 C.F.R. § 211.1 13(a)). For example, your firm has not set microbial limits for your firm's oral liquid drug products, nor have you demonstrated preservative effectiveness.
3. Your firm has not conducted specific identification testing when components are accepted based on the supplier's report of analysis (21 C.F.R. § 211.84(d)(2)). For example, your firm accepts a Certificate of Analysis (COA) from the supplier of components. However, your firm does not conduct identity testing on your components or appropriate verification of the supplier's test results.
4. Your firm does not have a written testing program designed to assess the stability characteristics of drug products in order to determine appropriate storage conditions and expirations dates (21 C.F.R. § 211.166(a)). For example, your firm does not have a stability testing program for your firm's components and finished drug products.
5. Your firm's drug products do not bear an expiration date determined by appropriate stability data to ensure they meet applicable standards of identity, strength, quality and purity at the time of use (21 C.F.R. § 211.137(a)). For example, your firm does not have the stability data to support expiration dating for these products.
Please be aware that the FDA has issued a letter addressed to the Electronic Cigarette Association (ECA) which explains in detail how the electronic cigarette industry can begin the drug approval process. For your convenience, we have enclosed a copy of that letter and encourage you to follow through with the recommendations.


They don't even have a QC unit(or person apparently) specifically tasked with any QC matters- No recordkeeping, no product testing before release, no initial testing of incoming supplies, no formal operating procedure, etc... As a healthcare professional who has worked in the industry and is familiar with cGMP and minimal QC standards, this is very disturbing. And if you read the specific violations(which are just SOME of the violations found) you'll see I've addressed everyone of them in previous posts in a myriad of threads. And this company is supposed to be one of the BEST in terms of QC/QA standards in the US eliquid industry - Yikes, I can only imagine the "homebrewer's" standards. I only hope, NOW, that JC and other manufacturers will start "following the recommendations" and working to legitimize the industry. You've now had 3 years of "cottage industry playtime". Unfortunately for vapers everywhere, playtime is over... The sad thing is, it didn't have to be this way.


P.S. I just threw out the one 15ml bottle of JC TC and the sampler pack I had. I refuse to do business with a company that misrepresents itself so blatantly and obviously cares so little about consumer product safety.
 
Last edited:

markarich159

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Jun 30, 2009
1,169
45
PA, USA
Assuming JC has no intentions of changing the way they do biz...what happens now? Fines,injunctions?
What does the FDA do now?

I mean can they shut them down at will?

Absolutely!!!


And Manufacture and distribution of an unapproved drug entity and viloations of cGMP can be prosecuted as criminal offenses - they are violations of CFR(code of federal regulations). I know the former(Manu & Dist of Unapp drug) is a Felony and I believe is punishable by a max of either 3 or 5 years in Fed prison and/or a $250,000 fine PER COUNT.

I don't think it will come to that, but, as I said it's up to the industry response at this point; which hopefully will be one that will allow the industry to continue and improve. This is really a blessing in disguise in my view. FDA could have been hauling people out in cuffs at this point- they aren't.
 

Vocalek

CASAA Activist
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
I'd like to point out two things:

  • "Regulations for Finished Pharmaceuticals" may differ significantly from regulation of products manufactured for human consumption (other than pharmaceuticals.)
  • You are assuming that the FDA is telling the truth, the whole truih, and nothing but the truth in their letter.

Just because JC does not have a qualtiy control department does not mean that no quality control is performed. Johnson Creek is not Johnson & Johnson. In most small businesses everyone wears more than one hat.

Some of this is just pure BS: "Your firm has not set microbial limits for your firm's oral liquid drug products, nor have you demonstrated preservative effectiveness." Mark, do you really believe that you are consuming an oral liquid drug? Furthermore, propylene glycol has antibacterial properties. So (I just discovered) does nicotine: http://jmm.sgmjournals.org/cgi/reprint/49/7/675.pdf

And do you really want them to start adding preservatives into your liquid? What is supposed to be preserved? Nicotine? PG? Health New Zealand tested for growth of bacteria in empty cartridges (and found no growth). They knew there would be no bacteria in the liquid. http://www.healthnz.co.nz/2ndSafetyReport_9Apr08.pdf


I would love to hear Johnson Creek's side of the story.
 
Last edited:

Dawolf

Full Member
Verified Member
Aug 18, 2010
59
3
New Jersey
I do not believe that any Juice distributors in the US are even near up to standards of cGMP. As a matter of fact, I am willing to bet that 90% of them would fall under the filthy category. Alot of them start of with dubious materials to start with. And probably .1% of them may do any kind of batch testing etc.
This is a rogue industry at best, and everyday a new company is born, out there selling Juice.
I would go out on a limb here to say that Johnson Creek, at least has to have some semblance of a clean manufacturing environment, based solely off of the fact that they were paid a visit by the FDA and did not get shut down immediately.

Before you buy your next Juice from your preferred vendor, just ask them if they can send you a picture of their manufacturing facility and to describe to you the steps they have taken to insure a quality and safe product.....

I saw a video of a Chinese Juice manufacturing plant in response to talk that the Chinese juices had unknown contaminants or were unclean etc. They seem to have processes in order and I would bet any bet that liquid coming from that manufacturer, would be of a higher quality than US (Made in Kitchen, Basements etc.) products would.

That said, I know the risks, and I take them. I buy American made juices on occasion, but I also don't have any issues with Chinese juices. After knowing that Johnson Creek was paid a visit by the FDA, this tells me that they have some kind of facility and it seems like they are trying to comply with FDA regulations and cGMP processes. I have never bought any Johnson Creek product, but I would consider them.

At least we all have the knowledge that the stuff we are choosing to buy is not made in "Clean" facilities or with any real consistency (According to the guidelines set forth by the FDA to protect us).

This is the link I am referring to.

YouTube - Chinese E-liquid Manufacturing Facilities
 
Last edited:

rothenbj

Vaping Master
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jul 23, 2009
8,248
7,647
Green Lane, Pa
After reading all the posts about cGMP and e liquid processing, I'm starting to get concerned. I haven't purchased liquid from China as I felt companies like JC, Tasty Vapor and Totally Wicked would be safer. Now I'm not at all sure. I'm thinking of going back to those FDA approved cigarettes. At least the FDA is making sure they have met all their standards.
 

GoodDog

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Dec 31, 2009
4,160
1,008
SF East Bay
rothenbj, the vendors I would be most concerned about are the ones making it out of their house using flavorings that aren't even regulated as a food product for ingestion. New ones are popping up daily and their fans keep them in business without knowing the facts. It's obvious that these vendors are in it for the immediate money and not for the long haul. I refuse to support this mentality when the entire e-cig industry is at stake.
 

CooL_SpoT

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Aug 30, 2010
143
0
Trenton, Ontario
I'm thinking of going back to those FDA approved cigarettes. At least the FDA is making sure they have met all their standards.

I do hope you're joking. When those standards include headings like "Billions of dollars made per annum:" and "Hundreds of Thousands of deaths per annum:"?!

Obviously I'm being sarcastic, but seriously: "FDA approved tobacco cigarette = Good"?! Really?!
 

markarich159

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Jun 30, 2009
1,169
45
PA, USA
I saw a video of a Chinese Juice manufacturing plant in response to talk that the Chinese juices had unknown contaminants or were unclean etc. They seem to have processes in order and I would bet any bet that liquid coming from that manufacturer, would be of a higher quality than US (Made in Kitchen, Basements etc.) products would.

YouTube - Chinese E-liquid Manufacturing Facilities

Saw the same video a long time ago(it was done by leaford of V4life) and is of the Dekang/Boge facility in China. They may not be EXACTLY up to US FDA cGMP, but, knowing what is entailed myself, I can tell you they are light-years ahead of any US eliquid manufacturer. They also have another important plus - independent certification from ISO, TUV, SGS South Korean FDA, et al... - something which no US manufacturer can tout.
 

Kate51

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Mar 27, 2009
3,031
22
77
Argyle Wi USA
Have to agree with VocalEK here, FDA has apparently never heard of "small business". I do believe Johnson Creek has earned a good reputation for quality control. They've strived for perfection and safety since inception. How would they then go from "registered to approved" without R&D funding in the $Millions. I would assume they're just not there yet. Could that be the major stop block to the entire E-cig Industry both national and international to date?
Apparently FDA hasn't incorporated appropriate inspection forms that apply to anything except Pharmaceutical Companies. Big ones!
It may would have been simpler to have called Johnson Creek a "Candy Company" and e-cigs lollipop sticks!!
 
Last edited:

markarich159

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Jun 30, 2009
1,169
45
PA, USA
I'd like to point out two things:

  • "Regulations for Finished Pharmaceuticals" may differ significantly from regulation of products manufactured for human consumption (other than pharmaceuticals.)
  • You are assuming that the FDA is telling the truth, the whole truih, and nothing but the truth in their letter.

Just because JC does not have a qualtiy control department does not mean that no quality control is performed. Johnson Creek is not Johnson & Johnson. In most small businesses everyone wears more than one hat.

Some of this is just pure BS: "Your firm has not set microbial limits for your firm's oral liquid drug products, nor have you demonstrated preservative effectiveness." Mark, do you really believe that you are consuming an oral liquid drug? Furthermore, propylene glycol has antibacterial properties. So (I just discovered) does nicotine: http://jmm.sgmjournals.org/cgi/reprint/49/7/675.pdf

And do you really want them to start adding preservatives into your liquid? What is supposed to be preserved? Nicotine? PG? Health New Zealand tested for growth of bacteria in empty cartridges (and found no growth). They knew there would be no bacteria in the liquid. http://www.healthnz.co.nz/2ndSafetyReport_9Apr08.pdf


I would love to hear Johnson Creek's side of the story.

Please Vocalek, I really appreciate your right to your opinion, this is a open forum and you can feel free to opine on anything you want. But you're not entitled to your own facts and you're really reaching here. Frankly, as a person who is a licensed Pharmacist and has intimate knowledge from working in the industry, I am starting to almost get personally offended by this constant insistance that Vaping manufacturers are simply beyond reproach(when several recent facts and revelations are clearly in opposition) and any healthcare or medical apparatus(governmental or private) is just wrong and motivated by some evil agenda in this arena(In fact, I would think the monetary motivation of the unregulated vaping industry would make the ecig/eliquid manufacturers the one's to be suspect of) . I have done nothing in my tenure on ECF but try to use my education and help people try to understand the medical/legal side of vaping and have answered dozens of questions through PM's and posts(on my own time and free of any consultation charge). I will no longer answer or respond to ridiculous tripe which is soley designed to prolong an argument that has no merit. PG is has a concentration dependent bacteriostatic action not cidal action. There are literally thousands of products that contain PG(including inhalers and nebulizer solutions) that still require additive methyl and/or propyl parabens to ensure continued sterility/acceptable minimal bacterial counts. And, no, I don't think eliquid is a food, which I clearly stated in my last post(in the other concurrent thread I responded to) where I thought I showed how the Cheerios matter and eliquid are apples and oranges.

I hate to come off as pretentious, but this matter is really becoming more and more obviously cut and dry(especially after the RATH incident and now the JC inspection). For the last time eliquid is a product intended for direct human pulmonary inhalation and, thusly, deserves a manufacturing process which US companies clearly cannot or do not wish to engage in properly.

This is my last post on this matter(since it's probably about my 100th). If you don't want to believe me or listen to me , then don't. Believe what you want to believe and vape what you want to vape(it's your life and your lungs). Me , I'm going to stick with dekang/Boge(as I always have). Again, if you're not going to listen to a Pharmacist, you're not going to listen to the FDA or anyone for that matter.

P.S. I would also love to hear from JC, but anything they say is just as suspect as you believe the FDA statements are.
 

markarich159

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Jun 30, 2009
1,169
45
PA, USA
Have to agree with VocalEK here, FDA has apparently never heard of "small business". I do believe Johnson Creek has earned a good reputation for quality control. They've strived for perfection and safety since inception. How would they then go from "registered to approved" without R&D funding in the $Millions. I would assume they're just not there yet. Could that be the major stop block to the entire E-cig Industry both national and international to date?
Apparently FDA hasn't incorporated appropriate inspection forms that apply to anything except Pharmaceutical Companies. Big ones!
It may would have been simpler to have called Johnson Creek a "Candy Company" and e-cigs lollipop sticks!!

Ok, I couldn't resist this one. Ok, so small business's are allowed to skimp on QC/QA and put consumers in dangers because they "just aren't there yet". But those evil "large companies", well they have to comply because they've gone through the appropriate free market capitalization which allowed them to become "large companies". A thing any small company is free to do in the USA(through those things we've all heard of- you know, business loans, public stock offering, seeking venture capital etc...) if they have the guts and confidence in their product. Which would lead to the reward of being a big company. Oh but wait, then they would have to institute all that nasty "consumer protection" regulatory nonsense which ensures their product is safe for their buyers( you know the people who patronize them with their money and confidence and lives and stuff to keep their business going). Your right better just to stay small and under the radar, we'll still make a good living, won't have to worry about any of that "big boy" consumer responsibilty stuff. Hell, we may get away with not even having to purchase product liability insurance. Yeah, 3 cheers for the small guy.

This has been coming for three years. Time for the industry to grow up or their will be no industry. And who gets hurt... The vaping consumer...always the vaping consumer.... who now has to go back to smoking. If only their would have been one "small guy" with the guts and foresight to do what was right. He/she may have made a BUNCH of loot and introduced a legitimate, safe alternative to smokers.

How is it that the Chinese(Dekang Boge) can finance a workable independently certified, GMP like eliquid facility and no US entity seems to be able. Like Michael Keaton said in that 80's movie Gung Ho- "yeah, the American spirit is still alive, problem is , they(in this case the Japanese) have it"

Ok, that was my last post on this matter.
 

Dawolf

Full Member
Verified Member
Aug 18, 2010
59
3
New Jersey
What will probably end up happening, and what needs to happen is that either an American Facility or Facilities, possibly one of the many closed down pharmaceutical plants will start to manufacture e-liquids for everyone in a regulated form, and the small businesses will begin to re-sell, white label, rebrand these. This will ensure that there is a product out there to consumers that was manufactured according to cGMP and is generally safe.

I'm afraid that the e-liquid here is just part of the equation. The hardware has to be suspect too. Look at the atomizers, Cartomizers and even the batteries in some cases. There are primers in some atomizers that are just nasty. What about the materials in some Attys/Cartos? Ever take a puff of a burnt or dried up Carto?...this cannot be safe either. The hardware makers need to be put up to a standard as well. What if the materials used in some of these had some kind of toxic output when you heated them up.

I'm saying here that there is as much of a conspiracy theory here with the makers of the hardware and e-liquids as there is with the FDA. All the propaganda I hear on here and on supplier web sites insinuates that vaping is free from toxins and is a cleaner, greener, healthier way to smoke. I have done my homework and I know the risks, but despite that I choose to vape. Don't forget that only a small percentage of vapers bother to go on a board or look up any other information on vaping other than what they were told by a supplier's web site, or at the mall, and we all know what that message is. I believe that it is absolutely right for the FDA to attempt to hold suppliers and manufacturers to a higher standard.

Suppliers, refrain from advertising that vaping can help quit smoking until there is an independent test done that can prove that. We all know that it does help, certainly did for me, let the customers speak, believe me they will if it works for them. Secondly STOP advertising that e-cigs are free of toxins or are a healthier alternative because none of us can state that as fact. We can make a good hypothesis judging by the fact that we are not inhaling anything burnt etc.

Manufacturers, step up to the plate and make hardware that will satisfy the requirements set forth, and insure that your consumers are safe using your product.

I am sick of hearing that we are only inhaling "Water Vapor" and that it is harmless. Who knows this? Yes PG is used in Pharmaceutical inhalation delivery devices and in foods, but until now no one has tried inhaling PG, VG, flavorings, sweeteners, and nicotine on a daily basis for a prolonged period of time. I'm sure PG is fine for use in some nebulizers, inhalation therapies but not all day everyday? How fast do your lungs metabolize PG? VG? Lorann Mint Chocalate chip flavoring? I would like to know. But for now I view vaping as the lesser of 2 evils and I choose to take the "risk".

Someday I may be able to drop inhaled nicotine as a habit altogether, maybe I will keep my PV batts charged for an occasional toot (Cuz we all know where the occasional cigarette leads)...but I sure hope that years from now, tests do not start showing that inhaled "Vapor" from e-cigs causes some other diseases or is toxic over time etc.
 
Last edited:

Vocalek

CASAA Activist
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Someone just posted this in a different thread:

agree with you about the diet/...... vapes. A little common sense . . .
As for JC, I'm waiting for them to weigh in here or elsewhere. According to the letter the FDA sent JC, that "failed inspection" wasn't particularly recent; it took place a year ago.

From the FDA:

Additionally, during our September 1-25, 2009, inspection of your manufacturing facility, . . . investigator(s) from the FDA identified significant violations of Current Good Manufacturing Practice (cGMP) regulations for Finished Pharmaceuticals . . .

Hard to believe the FDA would sit on that information for a year before sending them a formal warning. Must be more to the story?

Is it possible that as of today JC is in compliance with everthing on the FDA's list, but the FDA never went back to reinspect...or that the FDA never bothered to send this list to Johnson Creek to let them know they had things that needed to be fixed?
 

Kate51

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Mar 27, 2009
3,031
22
77
Argyle Wi USA
Mark, agreed, but you failed to read that in my post...I expect you do know the procedures and financing it takes to have a line of products APPROVED by the FDA. Have you been through the facility at Johnson Creek?
It is impressive, if you've not.
Maybe you'd better spend some time talking to Johnson Creek rather than showing how everything I said is delusional.
 

Dawolf

Full Member
Verified Member
Aug 18, 2010
59
3
New Jersey
One extra point, coming from a Pharma manufacturing background, I have dealt with the FDA first hand. And I may add this, that every Pharma I know today, has been cited at least once for compliance infractions however serious. I have seen the FDA come in and shut down production altogether until a remediation plan is in place. The fact that they did not shut down JC speaks volumes in itself, especially after an inspection. With just that little bit of info, I can conclude that their infractions however serious, obviously did not impact quality enough so that they would shut them down.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread