Tobacco (and other) Extracts vs "Flavors"

[AttyPops]

Hi All. Now, before anyone goes "ape sh--", I don't want this to turn into a "scandal" thread. But I do wish to discuss flavors, tobacco flavors in particular.

Now, I DIY (which is why this thread is in this sub-forum) and use some tobacco-ish flavors. I use other non-tobacco flavors also. Anyway, I have been reading in this forum (this thread in particular):

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/172473-new-tobacco-extract-concentrate-pa.html

and I read that some vendors use tobacco extracts in their tobacco flavors. I guess this makes sense. That's one way to get a flavor. I have not used Tobacco Absolute (that I know of), nor do I intend to. I wish to avoid as many TSNA's and other chemicals as possible.

Before you start writing a long reply, let me point out that I know the burning of tobacco produces the most "nasties". But I wish to avoid it (tobacco extracts....other than nicotine) as much as possible. I think that some of the tobacco flavors are a result of....chemical mixing/selection... and not extracts at all. Others are general extracts. Anyway, I don't want unnecessary tobacco chemicals in my e-juice.

I was surprised by that thread that indicated tobacco flavor extracts are used, rather than "bottom-up chemical flavor construction". Probably stupid of me.

I would like the vendors to tell me if they are using general extracts, rather than specific flavor chemicals (that are extracted, but individually... molecule selection). I'm not freaking out about it, but I would like to know. I guess I'll have to avoid tobacco flavors from now on, from all vendors.

And just so you know, that particular post is about a PA extract... I think very highly of PA and am not knocking them in any way (I recommend you try their flavors). This is just an example. I assume that many, if not all, vendors use some tobacco flavorings that come from general extracts.

Just because it isn't burned, doesn't make it totally safe. I'm trying to reduce the health risks as much as possible. That's my personal choice. Others want a particular tobacco flavor, and even use snus or other tobacco. Some have even tried to make their own extracts. To each their own.

That's not for me. As for me, I'll just use other flavors, and hope for the best. I guess I'll have to give up on tobacco flavors since I have even less of a clue about what is in them that I thought (other than about 100+ unnecessary bulk-extracted chemicals that probably don't contribute too much to the taste).

Oh well. Anyone else using e-cigs to reduce health risks and avoid tobacco, or is it just me? Should vendors tell us if they use tobacco extracts vs "flavorings"? Is there a difference.

P.S. I know that the nicotine extract contains very small levels of tobacco chemicals, but it's the best I can get......... gum, patches, lozenges included... so I don't want to debate that.

I want your 2 cents this time.....

A.P.

 

[aprioristic]

There was another thread.. "What's the common denominator?" or something, about some company that seems to put TA in everything, so that influenced me to separate what bases have TA from those that are just compounded flavor molecules. PA does this on their website as well.

The issue to me is more the slimy-ness of TA's than TSNA's. TSNA formation depends on the variety/soil/curing & growing processes/etc. Burley is the worst culprit of having TSNA's because of the way it grows. I don't think the Bulgarian tabacum is Burley or goes through fire-curing so worrying about TSNA's seems kind of silly, but who knows. It's good to know what is in the flavor if possible so I am with you on that.

I'm way more worried about other things than TSNA's in TA's. It would be nice if we could get that depth and richness from compounded molecules, but stuff like FA tobaccos, even though they are good, are more like top notes.

 

[AttyPops]

Sounds like you know more about it. I'm not limiting my questions to TSNA's, although it probably came off that way. The basic concept is that:

1) The Surgeon General has spent a lot of time telling me that tobacco is dangerous.
2) e-cigs are supposedly non-carcinogenic (as far as we know).
3) When someone asks me "what's in em" and I tell them "non-carcinogenic flavors, PG, VG, nicotine" I want to be correct.

So, I wish to avoid TSNA's and any other compound in tobacco extract that could be on the "nasty list".

Good to hear that PA separates them on the website... I haven't visited it in quite a while (I buy 3rd party with supplies). So, there is hope for my tobacco flavors!!!!!!

<goes and looks at site>

Yea! I am using their "RY4 Type flavor" as I type.....and am glad to see it on the "no natural tobacco" list.

I commend PA for this differentiation, and will order more of their "no natural tobacco" flavors.

 

[Hoosier]

Well, you could go the other way...

Extracts are more natural.

Artificial flavors are chemicals, manmade like.

Depends on what you want to avoid.

I use both. I'm good with both. DIY is a great way to make sure you only get what you're comfortable with in your juice.

 

[AttyPops]

Yeah, that's cool Hoosier. Depends on what you want. Arsenic is natural too. Don't vape it. lol.

I guess I'm a child of the 60's (Better Living Through Chemistry!) lol.

That link in the 1st post just got me thinking about tobacco flavored e-juice... how I order it, vs DIY it, and now I will either know for sure how they make it, or DIY it with PA's no tobacco flavors.

The extracts may have hints of beneficial MAOI's in them. Who knows. To each their own.....

 

[Stownz]

Its never been a function of "safe". I'm not sure why everyone wants vaping to be 100% safter then smoking, but such is not going to happen. Vaping is a safer alternative, but if you are really concerned about your health, stop vaping and stop smoking. You still have a majority of the suppliers mixing juice in a basement or garage someplace, with no lab testing of their own stock of supplies. Rest of us mixing our own juice, still have no lab tests to show what is in our supplies either.

We have no real idea what is in our juice, none at all. We keep getting FDA reports, but we blame the china manufacturers. 99% of all the suppliers are testing nothing. PG, Vg, Nicotine, EVERY singly flavor used would have to be tested, then the facilities used to mix the juice would have to be inspected.

I fail to understand why anyone that cares about their health at all, would ever smoke, or even vape. Your are pumping chemicals into your body that was never designed to process any of them. Not VG, not PG, not Nicotine, not TA, nor extracts. Its all bad, and is not healthy. Is it "less hazerdous" then smoking, yep, but your gonna have to lab test to find out.

 

[AttyPops]

Yeah, but your failing to understand it doesn't lessen my concern.

I have a choice of tobacco extracts, or non-tobacco extracts. I choose non-tobacco. I now know, from PA's site, that they make custom flavors that are not general extracts. And I go with that.

The understanding part may be helped by the fact that I have tried to quit nicotine, and thus far, have failed. But, I can quit smoking, and lessen the health risks. This form of nicotine (inhaled) is the best method, IMO. To make it the safest, I should probably vape unflavored juice. But I like the flavors. I don't want tobacco extract, however.

To each their own.

 

[Zal42]

Rest of us mixing our own juice, still have no lab tests to show what is in our supplies either.

We have no real idea what is in our juice, none at all.

That's not exactly true. I mix my own, and have a very good, albeit not perfect, idea what's in my juice. My pg & vg are certified USP, which means that they are produced by inspected labs and are tested for purity. My flavorings are likewise produced by inspected labs and adhere to established controls for purity and safety (although a different set than for the USP stuff.) My nic base is the only question mark. To say that I have no idea at all what's in my juice is simply untrue.

 

[aprioristic]

Sounds like you know more about it. I'm not limiting my questions to TSNA's, although it probably came off that way. The basic concept is that:

1) The Surgeon General has spent a lot of time telling me that tobacco is dangerous.
2) e-cigs are supposedly non-carcinogenic (as far as we know).
3) When someone asks me "what's in em" and I tell them "non-carcinogenic flavors, PG, VG, nicotine" I want to be correct.

So, I wish to avoid TSNA's and any other compound in tobacco extract that could be on the "nasty list".

Good to hear that PA separates them on the website... I haven't visited it in quite a while (I buy 3rd party with supplies). So, there is hope for my tobacco flavors!!!!!!

<goes and looks at site>

Yea! I am using their "RY4 Type flavor" as I type.....and am glad to see it on the "no natural tobacco" list.

I commend PA for this differentiation, and will order more of their "no natural tobacco" flavors.

Hmm..."non-carcinogenic"? You really say that to people? I don't think you know enough to say that. It actually surprises me when looking at all these chemicals how many have been studied to be anti-(usually some specific type of) cancer.

We assume that flavorings are safe in ecigs because they have been deemed "generally recognized as safe" or GRAS for foods. Out of a thousand odd flavorings that are GRAS, under 5% have been tested for inhalation toxicity. These are just the thousand or so out of many possible thousands put on a short list because of knowledge on their activity in actual GRAS "intended uses".

Is it still reasonable to assume that a lot of these flavors are safe? I think so. It's just certain types of chemicals, a much wider group than just diacetyl, that could cause problems with the lungs and ought to be treated differently for this type of usage. The degree to which a volatile diketone or similar chemical interferes with ion transport (and hurts lungs) seems to have some relation to genetics, so it is a crapshoot.

In terms of being carcinogenic.. as long as a flavor's use level is kept in the same range as in GRAS materials, you ought to be fine. It doesn't really matter if you buy your juice or DIY. Unless you know all of the individual molecules used in a flavoring and can go relate that to GRAS intended use levels, you have no clue if you could be vaping a "safe" flavor at such a high level to where it would no longer be "safe" by GRAS standards. GRAS standards come from extrapolation of animal testing and the types of curves vary... With one chemical, going past the target could be much less of a big deal than with another.

This is yet another case of the blind leading the blind on ECF. Your assumption that natural extracts and absolutes are less safe than compounded flavor molecules has no basis in fact. Absolutes are concentrated for flavor. It removes most of the "pointless" plant material that would burn in a cigarette.

On the one hand you are saying you don't want to debate these issues and have it be a .... thread, but then you are spreading misinformation. If you want to hold to some sort of irrational belief, like that organic flavor molecules are somehow special, fine by me, but if you are going to talk about "nasties", please know what you are talking about.

The extracts may have hints of beneficial MAOI's in them. Who knows. To each their own.....

The process of making an absolute would wash away or destroy most is not all alkaloids. Even if somehow a small amount remained, the amount one would then inhale is so small as to not do anything. This is the same reason that worrying about TSNA's is silly.

 

[AttyPops]

Sigh. OK, look. I'm not claiming that e-cigs are totally safe. Nor am I "spreading misinformation" about them. I am ASKING others for opinions, and if you are well informed I'd appreciate your information, without the inflammatory accusations. If my assumption that carcinogenic chemicals (in larger amounts than expected from just the nicotine extract) are not present, or if it is GRAS, or if it is generally considered as safe as the non-extract tobacco flavor, just say "Hey, AttyPops... most if not all of the 'nasties' are not in the flavorings."

To accuse me of being blind, just because I ask a question, or give an opinion, when I clearly said I don't know much about it, and then asked a question.... that's out of line. I'm not a chemist, nor do I intend to look up all the "nasties" in the tobacco research just to have a civil conversation. It is unreasonable for you to expect that. Go to a science forum, or a chemist's forum for that. This isn't it. At least not this thread.

So... you are either an expert, with unreasonable expectations for the rest of us to have a conversation, or you have a particular bias regarding this topic and need to "come down hard" on someone asking a question. Whatever. I appreciate your information, as best I can understand it with my limited knowledge of this topic.

On the one hand you are saying you don't want to debate these issues and have it be a .... thread, but then you are spreading misinformation.

I didn't say I won't debate it, I just didn't want to discuss the trace amounts that are a result of the NICOTINE extraction process since it seems most if not all nic-juice has some of these and they are unavoidable, at least without great expense. The flavor extract process is why I asked the question.

"If you want to hold to some sort of irrational belief, like that organic flavor molecules are somehow special"

???? where did you even pull that one from? Come on. lol. I didn't say that. Get real.

In any event... It is claimed that using tobacco, like chew or snus is carcinogenic. I don't know enough about it to quote the chemicals involved, nor the %'s, nor GRAS levels, or anything else. I just know that that everyone is trying to convince me to stay away from it. So... I don't see why a concentrated extract, even used diluted as a flavor, wouldn't have some levels of "nasties" whatever they are. The debate, if there even is one, is to whether or not we should avoid them. You seem to be in the "not too overly worried about it" camp. OK.

I also said to each their own. I'm just asking what others think, I'm not attacking them or their approach to e-cigs. I am glad that vendors, like PA understand that, at least some of us, wish to avoid the tobacco extracts. Rational or not. I can have my tobacco flavors from PA that are non-extracts. They may not be totally safe, and I know that a lot of study needs to be done on these. But, I'm entitled to have a conversation about it.

It's just "non-chemist" logic.... like chew is bad->bad stuff= nasties-> saliva, chewing, etc. is partially flavor extraction (enzymes rather than alcohol?) -> ergo extracts must have some bad stuff, albeit maybe in insignificant quantities. This may be totally wrong, which is why I bother to ask in the 1st place.

I do hope the vendors respect my desire to avoid tobacco extracts, even if they don't agree on any safety issues. I want my e-cig to be non-tobacco. The e-cig vendors claim e-cigs don't have carcinogens... so I hope they are correct (at least for a select group of flavors). So when I say non-carcinogenic, I mean PG, VG, nic-juice (OK, OK, with very small trace amount of <whatever>" in it) and flavors that as far as we know are not causing cancer in reasonable levels (but I admit that more study is necessary).

P.S. Good info on the MAOI's. I didn't know, or really care, that they are alkaloids. But I now know that they are not a significant factor in the flavoring. Good to know. Thanks.

As far as being blind, I'm not leading anyone anywhere. I'm asking. And letting people know my opinion, so we can discuss it.

 

[Stownz]

That's not exactly true. I mix my own, and have a very good, albeit not perfect, idea what's in my juice. My pg & vg are certified USP, which means that they are produced by inspected labs and are tested for purity. My flavorings are likewise produced by inspected labs and adhere to established controls for purity and safety (although a different set than for the USP stuff.) My nic base is the only question mark. To say that I have no idea at all what's in my juice is simply untrue.

And rebottled, and rebranded who knows how many times in what conditions. It originally might have been USP, but after the supply chain I doubt it still is. USP applys to consumption, not inhilation. The effects of hitting the liquid with heat high enough to vaporize it is a whole nother scenerio. It is MUCH better, as we can all personally attest to the great changes in our own health since we stopped smoking and started vaping. But telling anyone you know what is in your fluid because some dude in his garage put a sticker on it that says "USP", means nothing. None of these suppliers, for your flavoring or VG or PG have submitted their products to lab testing for chemical composition after vaporization.

The point is not to freak people out, it is to stop people thinking any of this is healthy. So many posts about people freaked out, yet they do not demand lab reports from any supplier. They purchase junk from some random guy on the internet, that doesn't even have a store !!!! LOLOL, then complain about possible ingredients. Some guy with a website sticks a sticker on your bottle, and and you believe him.

People getting upset about the wrong things here. Your vaping weird stuff from god knows where, and mixed in who knows what environment. Except it and move along, no crusades here unless you have money to lab test. No freaking out.

 

[AttyPops]

Stownz, I don't think that anyone is making the claim that vaping is totally safe. But I, like Zal42, mix my own juice. So the general concept here is not that we expect it to be totally safe (but we can hope it is close...albeit without justification), but that we have a general idea of what's in it. PG. VG. Nic extract, flavor. It's the flavor part being discussed here, not the safety of e-cigs as a whole, the need for lab tests, etc. In fact, there are many threads asking for lab test, etc. I agree, but I'm not beating that dead-horse.

To say "it's not safe, so who cares?" is just dismissing the point rather than discussing it. There are countless threads talking about the need for testing, making it as safe as reasonable, stating that it will probably never be 100% safe, etc. Maybe you didn't read his post... he is a DIYer...

I agree that we shouldn't freak out. I also agree that vaping will probably never be 100% safe. Not claiming that it is. But I, like Zal42, DIY so I can avoid things that I choose to avoid, and "kind of" know what is in my juice. Flavorings are the main exception, and I just wanted to discuss them. Nobody is freaking out, dude. Not particularly upset about it either. But I did ask, just because that other post got me thinking about it.

P.S. I've stated before I think vaping is a form of harm-reduction. I still think so. That isn't to encourage others to vape if they don't smoke. But I think it is valid to switch to vaping and stop smoking. Nobody is claiming that it is totally safe.

 

[Zal42]

And rebottled, and rebranded who knows how many times in what conditions. It originally might have been USP, but after the supply chain I doubt it still is.

If it's not, then the company selling the stuff will face some really serious fines for using the FDA label illegally. And if you're really worried that this is the case with pg & vg, then you should really freak out about the medications that you take, because the only regulation their ingredients have is the exact same USP certification process.

USP applys to consumption, not inhilation.

Uhh, no. USP applies to neither. USP means that the substance that is USP certified has achieved a certain purity (in the case of vg, for instance, it means 99% pure and what contaminants are allowed in the other 1% are also regulated). USP lays out things like what testing procedures are to be used, etc.

But telling anyone you know what is in your fluid because some dude in his garage put a sticker on it that says "USP", means nothing.

If I were buying this stuff from some guy in a garage, then point conceded. I'm not, though. I'm buying it from major, respected manufacturers who are not connected to the vaping industry in the first place or, in the case of some flavoring manufacturers, have a small sideline with the vaping community but for whom the bulk of their business is in the food industry.

The point is not to freak people out, it is to stop people thinking any of this is healthy.

The point I was responding to was that you said that we know nothing about the contents of our juices, even if we DIY. I am not speaking to health impact, only ingredient purity.

 

[Creniker]

I don't DIY. I am looking into it, but have decided one way or another, so I'm no expert on any of this. Stownz, I've seen you around, and it seems to me that you enjoy arguing quite a bit. In almost any thread I see you in you have some comment that isn't necessary and isn't beneficial. You also seem quite uninformed the majority of the time. So why post. Is the thread count so important to you that you feel the need to post every irrational argument that you can, just so you can gain a few post count arguing back? Just calm down and let the man ask a question. Your saying not to freak out, but that's exactly what your doing in the response to an honest and reasonable question. Just tone it down man.

 

[Stownz]

I don't DIY. I am looking into it, but have decided one way or another, so I'm no expert on any of this. Stownz, I've seen you around, and it seems to me that you enjoy arguing quite a bit. In almost any thread I see you in you have some comment that isn't necessary and isn't beneficial. You also seem quite uninformed the majority of the time. So why post. Is the thread count so important to you that you feel the need to post every irrational argument that you can, just so you can gain a few post count arguing back? Just calm down and let the man ask a question. Your saying not to freak out, but that's exactly what your doing in the response to an honest and reasonable question. Just tone it down man.

It's the debate that allows me to learn even more. Look at this thread, just learned that USP was related to purity instead of tested for consumption. Fantastic bit of info I didn't know before.

I've never stated to be an expert, I'm just curious, and highly opinionated. I want to understand, not just believe everything I read. I state the opinions to stir the debate, and your right, its almost every one of my posts 8) Let information and personal experiences with products spread, and the industry as a whole better itself because of the free flow of ideas.

 

[Adik Ted]

Maybe this will help clarify a few things About flavours.

I love the taste of cinnamon but real cinnamon toothpicks burnt and caused swelling on the inside of my lip. That experience made me wary about inhaling cinnamon into my lungs so I was hoping cinnamon flavour was made synthetically. Having looked up the above link I'm none the wiser to be honest. I suppose it could have been something else in the wood toothpick other than the flavour that caused the swelling but if it was to do with the flavour then presumably the same synthetic chemicals could damage my lungs .

 

[Zal42]

I suppose it could have been something else in the wood toothpick other than the flavour that caused the swelling but if it was to do with the flavour then presumably the same synthetic chemicals could damage my lungs .

It was probably the cinnamon oil (and it was probably essential oil, not a synthetic). Cinnamon is one of a small handful of essential oils that can cause bad reactions in a small, but not insignificant, number of people.

It sounds like you're one of those who should avoid cinnamon oil. A synthetic would actually be a better choice for you: it's the essential oils that cause the reaction. Any flavoring manufacturer will readily tell you if their cinnamon flavor includes essential oil or not. If they don't, then don't purchase (anything) from them.

 

[Adik Ted]

It was probably the cinnamon oil (and it was probably essential oil, not a synthetic). Cinnamon is one of a small handful of essential oils that can cause bad reactions in a small, but not insignificant, number of people.

It sounds like you're one of those who should avoid cinnamon oil. A synthetic would actually be a better choice for you: it's the essential oils that cause the reaction. Any flavoring manufacturer will readily tell you if their cinnamon flavor includes essential oil or not. If they don't, then don't purchase (anything) from them.

Thanks zal.

 

[Creniker]

It's the debate that allows me to learn even more. Look at this thread, just learned that USP was related to purity instead of tested for consumption. Fantastic bit of info I didn't know before.

I've never stated to be an expert, I'm just curious, and highly opinionated. I want to understand, not just believe everything I read. I state the opinions to stir the debate, and your right, its almost every one of my posts 8) Let information and personal experiences with products spread, and the industry as a whole better itself because of the free flow of ideas.

Its a good point. I just seem to sense hostility in a lot of your replies. Perhaps I picking up the wrong vibes?

 

[Stownz]

Its a good point. I just seem to sense hostility in a lot of your replies. Perhaps I picking up the wrong vibes?

Nah, life is too short to get mad, haha. I'm just passionate about e-cigs, so I would imagine that my opinions about them come across as passionate as well. I'm pretty sure some of the people debating me are getting rather upset though, try as I may to keep things civil. 8) In the end, I have found a lot of great mods, great toys, and lots of usefull information from ECF. Great place to hang out and vape.