Tobacco concrete! What is it.

[dannyv45]

I posted this in the TA thread in general discussion but thought it a better topic for this sub forum.

I've been using TA for quite a while now and recently ran across a product called

Bulgarian Tobacco concrete from Nicotiana tabacum

Which is a thick waxie extract which is used to derive absolute from.

Naturally this caught my interest and as it was cheap ($7.50) I ordered some. I did not order from the link above I'm only using the link because it had a lot of data on it.

So my question is has anyone herd of this?
Anyone know how to use it?

I'm looking for any information at all on this as I know nothing about it.

What really caught my interest was the last line of the information listing

Application: tobacco concrete is a product used for obtaining absolute.

I've only just ordered it and haven't received it yet so there's not much more I can add at this point.

 

[MarkyD]

Concretes are solvent extracts of plant material using (for example) hexane or carbon dioxide as the solvent, which are then concentrated and distilled to a solid wax-like substance. Absolutes are solvent extracts of concretes, the solvent (ethanol) pulls only the polar (fragrant) compounds from the concrete. So the concrete first needs to be dissolved into alcohol, then the alcohol allowed to evaporate and the oily substance that remains is the absolute.

I saw that site too and it looked really worthy as something to try. From the specs on the concrete it says "content of absolute %: not less than 30" so with 10grams of concrete you should get at least 3grams of absolute, which you can then treat like the Azure TA and dilute further with pga/pg. I bet its tasty!

 

[we2rcool]

From Eden botanicals:

Concretes & Absolutes: Solvent Extraction

Concretes and Absolutes are highly concentrated aromatic materials extracted from plants. The multi-step process includes first extracting the aromatic oil from the plant material with a solvent such as hexane. After the hexane is removed what is left behind is a waxy substance called a concrete. This semi-solid to solid highly fragrant material contains a large amount of pigments and waxes. Due to their waxy texture, concretes are perfect for making solid perfumes. They have a somewhat delicate, yet long lasting aroma and are soluble in both carrier oil and alcohol, though often it is necessary to filter any insoluble waxes and solid material that remains.

From the concrete the aromatic oils are then extracted and separated from most of the plant waxes and non-aromatic material with ethyl alcohol. After the ethyl alcohol is removed, the remaining substance is called an absolute. An absolute is the most concentrated form of natural fragrance, with an aroma close to the plant from which it came, and is highly regarded in natural perfumery. Absolutes still contain some waxes and pigments along with other constituents from the plant, but are mostly comprised of the concentrated aromatic oil. In addition, they usually contain a small percentage of alcohol remaining from the second phase of the extraction process (typically up to 2 or 3 percent).

Absolutes differ from essential oils in that essential oils do not contain waxes, are much lighter in color or have no color, and have a lighter aroma. Essential oils are typically used in skincare and for therapeutic purposes, while absolute and concretes are for natural perfumery.​

Fwiw, we're currently experimenting with around 15 different absolutes (only 2 of them are tobacco) - from different vendors. The one thing we can say for sure at this point is that absolutes do vary between vendors.

 

[doots]

Get the Everclear ready Danny.. lol Id really be interested in what happens. Sounds like some strong stuff..

 

[dannyv45]

Think I'll pick some up on the way home and do some more research on this.

I'm taking this as the concrete needs to be desolved in alcohol and then alcohol needs to evaperate which leaves behind the absolute. The question is does it need to be desolved then filtered then the alcohol needs to evaporate?

How is it that I come up with this off the wall stuff. Am I that board with every day mixing

 

[MarkyD]

Id let it sit in the alcohol until it looks like the alcohol has picked up the polar compounds (darkening, thickening, etc) then toss what solids remain, which should be only the non-polar plant pigments and waxes. The question is how long it will take, Ive only done it with other plant materials and it sat overnight (a good 8-12hours) to do it.

 

[we2rcool]

Think I'll pick some up on the way home and do some more research on this.

I'm taking this as the concrete needs to be desolved in alcohol and then alcohol needs to evaperate which leaves behind the absolute. The question is does it need to be desolved then filtered then the alcohol needs to evaporate?

How is it that I come up with this off the wall stuff. Am I that board with every day mixing

Nope - it's not that easy. We can't just dissolve the concrete in pure grain alcohol, let the alcohol evaporate, and then end up with an absolute. Once the concrete is properly mixed into the alcohol, there's an "extraction & separation process" that removes the majority of the waxes and plant residue.

From the concrete the aromatic oils are then extracted and separated from most of the plant waxes and non-aromatic material with ethyl alcohol. After the ethyl alcohol is removed, the remaining substance is called an absolute.

If you dilute a concrete with alcohol and let the alcohol evaporate...?...you'll have the same concrete (only it'll likely lose some of it's intensity from some of the aroma evaporating away with the alcohol.

 

[dannyv45]

Id let it sit in the alcohol until it looks like the alcohol has picked up the polar compounds (darkening, thickening, etc) then toss what solids remain, which should be only the non-polar plant pigments and waxes. The question is how long it will take, Ive only done it with other plant materials and it sat overnight (a good 8-12hours) to do it.

It's just an experiment so time is not much of a factor. I guess I'll know more as to what needs to be separated once I actually get into it. I'm still waiting for the concrete to arrive. I'll use a small amount of it to do my first test with.

 

[MarkyD]

If you ever got any of the old TFA TA (not the blend) or the Azure TA in the 15ml bottle (the thick stuff) then thats what youre aiming to end up with something that looks like those.

 

[dannyv45]

If you ever got any of the old TFA TA (not the blend) or the Azure TA in the 15ml bottle (the thick stuff) then thats what youre aiming to end up with something that looks like those.

Yes I actually still have almost a full vile of the (pure) dark brown thick tar like TFA stuff that needs to be warmed to get it out of the vile.

 

[MarkyD]

I bet it turns out really tasty if you can get a good extraction/separation. I cant say if it's a bad thing that I use TA in way too many mixes, and I dont mind if its food-safe or not, the stuff just adds that certain something.

 

[dannyv45]

Nope - it's not that easy. We can't just dissolve the concrete in pure grain alcohol, let the alcohol evaporate, and then end up with an absolute. Once the concrete is properly mixed into the alcohol, there's an "extraction & separation process" that removes the majority of the waxes and plant residue.

From the concrete the aromatic oils are then extracted and separated from most of the plant waxes and non-aromatic material with ethyl alcohol. After the ethyl alcohol is removed, the remaining substance is called an absolute.

If you dilute a concrete with alcohol and let the alcohol evaporate...?...you'll have the same concrete (only it'll likely lose some of it's intensity from some of the aroma evaporating away with the alcohol.

I'm sure my questions sound amaturish and rightly so as I've never done anything like this but how would you remove the alcohol if you don't evaporate it? Or am I missing the entire point in the extract and separation process? The concrete didn't cost me much and if I waste it so be it. I consider the learning experience more valuable then the end result.

 

[MarkyD]

In the plant extracts I did, the oils and the solvent separated naturally due to differing viscosities. The oils floated on top and I just skimmed them from the surface and evaporated the remaining solvent. Perhaps a centrifuge would make the process more efficient, I saw a homebrew one on popular science using a high-speed dremel tool (dremelfuge) which looked promising for NET extractions.

 

[jascan]

Keep us posted on this experiment. Sounds very interesting. Also thanks for the great information in your blogs!. Really helped me get off to the right start in DIY. I'm a fan!

 

[Mr.Mann]

Solvent Extraction

Hey, some may know that I have always had a fascination with TA, but the extraction from concrete is a little bit difficult to find precise info on. I found this today, so hopefully it can get you some indication of what you may be doing:

"...To prepare the absolute from the concrete, the waxy concrete is warmed and stirred with alcohol (usually ethanol.). During the heating and stirring process the concrete breaks up into minute globules. Since the aromatic molecules are more soluble in alcohol than is the wax an efficient separation of the two takes place. But along with the aromatic molecules a certain amount of wax also becomes dissolved and this can only be removed by agitating and freezing the solution at very low temperatures (around -30 degrees F) In this way most of the wax precipates out. As a final precaution the purified solution is cold filtered leaving only the wax-free material (the absolute.)"

As per the disclaimer on the DIY forum, try this at your own risk. I know nothing about it, I am just sharing info I've found.

 

[we2rcool]

I'm sure my questions sound amaturish and rightly so as I've never done anything like this but how would you remove the alcohol if you don't evaporate it? Or am I missing the entire point in the extract and separation process? The concrete didn't cost me much and if I waste it so be it. I consider the learning experience more valuable then the end result.

The alcohol is ultimately evaporated.

Questions are a GOOD thing!

The purpose of the alcohol is to bring the hard concrete into a state where the waxes and plant matter can be extracted/separated. The process of separating the particles of wax/plant matter (as I understand it), is not something that can be effectively accomplished without the correct (specialized) equipment.

From Wikipedia:
Although highly fragrant, concretes are too viscous - even solid - at room temperature to be useful. This is due to the presence of high-molecular-weight, non-fragrant waxes and resins. Another solvent, often ethyl alcohol, which only dissolves the fragrant low-molecular weight compounds, must be used to extract the fragrant oil from the concrete. The alcohol is removed by a second distillation, leaving behind the absolute. These extracts from plants such as jasmine and rose, are called absolutes.

So we're talking some kind of specialized distiller that can handle a 'tar like, alcohol based waxy-resinous-plant goo' and output a tar like substance that is almost wax/resin/plant free. ???

Concretes & Absolutes are very different than something like typical NETS or herbal tinctures. There's good reason why the Absolutes are so pricey.

 

[we2rcool]

Solvent Extraction

Hey, some may know that I have always had a fascination with TA, but the extraction from concrete is a little bit difficult to find precise info on. I found this today, so hopefully it can get you some indication of what you may be doing:

"...To prepare the absolute from the concrete, the waxy concrete is warmed and stirred with alcohol (usually ethanol.). During the heating and stirring process the concrete breaks up into minute globules. Since the aromatic molecules are more soluble in alcohol than is the wax an efficient separation of the two takes place. But along with the aromatic molecules a certain amount of wax also becomes dissolved and this can only be removed by agitating and freezing the solution at very low temperatures (around -30 degrees F) In this way most of the wax precipates out. As a final precaution the purified solution is cold filtered leaving only the wax-free material (the absolute.)"

As per the disclaimer on the DIY forum, try this at your own risk. I know nothing about it, I am just sharing info I've found.

The more information the better. We too, have done quite a bit of searching on concretes & absolutes...and the one thing we learned is that we didn't want to learn enough (or spend enough) to do it
...and that we were very happy to leave it to the 'experts that be'

We found (just posted) that a 2nd distillation is also part of the process. 'Makes sense that agitation/freezing would also fit in there somewhere.

Concretes: waxy, resinous, oily, plant matter (most times, created with hexane). Yeppers, we'll leave it to the experts to get all that crap outta there so we can vape-play with the finished absolutes. But hey, to each his own!

 

[RocketPuppy]

Much more difficult than making regular concrete. Let us know how it goes Danny, so after I repave my driveway, I'll have a new endeavor in which to look forward.

 

[MarkyD]

"...To prepare the absolute from the concrete, the waxy concrete is warmed and stirred with alcohol (usually ethanol.)

Herein lies the risk and danger, as we know that something like 190 proof everclear is volatile and flammable enough at room temperature, and even more so when heated. I was taught to do this outside on a food warming plate, and to go nowhere near boiling, only heating enough to separate the oils. As Mr.Mann posted, think of the amount of heat needed to melt wax, it doesnt take much. If youre gonna heat ethanol to extract TA, please be safe and use extreme caution.