Tobacco Molecules

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Mayasveil

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May 13, 2010
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Hey you guys. I've been thinking ...(which usually gets me into trouble) about trying to diy my own unique tobacco flavoring using "molecules" that make up tobacco flavoring and not sure where to start. I've just ordered some Tetramethylpyrazine, Trimethyl Pyrazine, Acetylpyridine-2, Acetyl Pyrazine and Guaiacol. Does anybody have any experience with these? Any information outside of CAS information would be fantastic. I'll post my impressions for each individual molecule and combination of them here.
I hope this is going to be a wonderful journey.
 

aprioristic

Moved On
Oct 20, 2010
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Harrisburg, PA
Type "goodscent" in with the chem name in google and it will lead you to this site, 1st result in this case

2,3,5,6-tetramethyl pyrazine 1124-11-4

If you can manage to get your hands on any book like Fenaroli's Handbook of Flavors, it will be very helpful too.

I've only messed with a couple of these so far, and not the ones on your list. The few people here I have seen using these seem to be using them up to 20x what you will see given as ppm in many flavor descriptions, which is in line with how vaping typically requires stronger flavorings. Get a decent pipette or syringe in at least 0.1ml graduations.

Personally, I am still wrestling with all of the Flavor Art tobaccos, but I would love to hear about your process. Good luck =)
 

Mayasveil

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Aprioristic, I was hoping you would be one of the people to reply. Thanks for dropping in. The Goodscents company lives in my neck of the woods and I do have the necessary equipment mentioned. I'll have to check out that book, it sounds like it should be part of my library.

I went ahead and ordered, and waiting on their arrival. Thanks for the 20x tip. I will come in handy with my learning curve. Which tobacco molecules have you experimented with? How did you use them? How did the experiment turn out? What are you trying to accomplish with the FA flavorings?
 

Mayasveil

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May 13, 2010
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Talmadgemonroe, I hope so too! Even if nobody chimes in, I plan on using this page as a quasi think tank, posting my experience, experiments and findings. Thanks for stopping by and hope to see you soon. Darn, tomorrow is Sunday. No mail carrier is going to be around then ... gotta wait a bit longer to get my stash so I can play Mad Scientist.
 

aprioristic

Moved On
Oct 20, 2010
581
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Harrisburg, PA
I forget exactly what he said now, but the guy who runs Decadent Vapors explained to me that flavorings typically need to be 4-8 or up to 20x stronger than in there usages for food. There's actually a bit of a safety concern here because we know that most of these flavorings are GRAS (generally recognized as safe), but that is only for "intended uses", and there isn't many inhalation studies done on 95%+ of flavorings.

I still haven't been able to understand all of the stuff about diacetyl and other possibly dangerous flavorings, but I would look out for volatile ketones, or especially anything shaped like diacetyl with the two Oxygen double bounds right next to each other. For most of these it probably isn't a concern, but some of them really aren't suited for use at amounts appropriate to the 0.1ml syringes. You need to really dilute them. Some flavors we are talking about being used at parts per billion.

Take guaiacol as another example. I'm not worried about the safety from the type of chemical it is, but taste descriptions are given at a concentration of 2ppm or .0002%. Assuming we need 20x because of the small amount of liquid vaporized in each puff on an ecig, you are then at 40ppm or .004%. I want to say that there is another thread here where someone was asking about these chems and scubabatdan said he was using guaiacol at 200ppm or .02%.

Besides the fact that these chems are just hard to work with at these levels without a micropipette, do we really know how much survives being vaporized or how much is absorbed into our lungs? I'm not even going to try to get into that, but the one study I have seen trying to do this (the Leuven one) was terribly flawed. Guaiacol's FEMA PADI (possible average daily intake) is 0.643mg.

How does this relate to the amount you might be getting in a day or month's worth of chronic exposure (vaping)? Which GRAS was Guaiacol published in? What were the health concerns surrounding its use in food? It should be obvious that the point I am trying to make is that you should be careful.

FEMA hasn't investigated this stuff for inhalation at the levels we need to use them. They probably won't because of their attachment to the FDA bureaucracy. If I were to "eyeball it" with regards to guaiacol, we look okay here. It is a savory, smoky type flavor that you probably don't want too much of. But then in other cases, is the chemical you are going to use a prominent part of the mixture and you are using it at 20 or 100x typical levels? Is that then way beyond the levels where chemicals were able to achieve GRAS status for food?

I would try to look into these types of things before using any of these chemicals. Fenaroli's and a lot of other PDF e-books can be found through google pretty easily and I would get a micropipette if you are looking to drop $300 on something. I haven't used any of the "tobacco molecules", just some of the non-tobacco ones tucked away in that section of PA's website. I have the raspberry ketone but haven't used it yet. Koolada (trade name for menthyl methyl lactate) is a cooling agent.

coolingagents.png


Note that menthyl lactate is not the same as Koolada. The site listed there does have a lot of good info though IIRC. Koolada can be combined with mint flavors to create menthol alternatives, as well as used with non-mint flavors like vanilla bean ice cream to just give a cooling sensation (think toothpaste).

The only other chem I have and have used extensively is eugenyl acetate. PA's clove flavor is probably mainly eugenol, so EA is an accompaniment to it. I'm also working with some chemicals not listed or available through PA for throat hit with 0-nic and have used those, along with some other flavors, to make a pretty realistic clove-cigarette flavor. Eugenol alone will taste like you are sucking on a clove from your spice rack. You need a lot of other things to even start to get like kretek, and we all know that ecigs will never be exactly like burning plant material.

I might try to do what you are doing some day, but it seems quite difficult relative to other things. There is some Chinese juice manufacturer on here that listed out all of the molecules in its blends, so that might give you some ideas. What I have done is buy every tobacco flavoring I can get from PA/FA/etc. and start to learn about what molecules go into making each of these characteristic tobacco flavors like Burley, Latakia, Perique, etc.

You should be able to get familiar with these first and see what makes them successful. Try to be able to recognize what goes into them and taste them at different concentrations. FA's 7 Leaves has EM and licorice flavor added for instance. I'm sure you can put together some good blends how you are going about it, but I am starting from another angle.
 

Mayasveil

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May 13, 2010
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Hi Aprioristic. I've read your post and took time contemplating before responding. I am no chemist and it has been many moons since my last chem course. What I do hear loud and clear as others should is: ... Danger ...danger Will Robinson. Yes, caution should be first and foremost. Hopefully developing this thread will deter those who are not ready, inform those who are curious, then there is always "the one". I'm glad you dropped in reminding me about various elements such as .....look out for volatile ketones, or especially anything shaped like diacetyl with the two Oxygen double bounds right next to each other." As others should as well.

At one time I taught AP science and am a little familiar with lab equipment. I like the approach your taking and sense you too will be successful. I too have all of FA and PA's tobaccos along with a few others that the GoodScents Co. directed me to. I must say, it's nice to have him as a neighbor. I've been messing around with those flavors for about a year now, which has led me to what I am doing now.

What post grad study are you in? What is your dissertation about? I'm sorry if assuming your a student is incorrect. Your avatar assisted me in reaching that conclusion. Then to quote René Descartes, "It is not enough to have a good mind; the main thing is to use it well". I do hope so that you'll find time in your busy schedule to pop in and make sure I do just that.
 
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Mayasveil

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May 13, 2010
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Well, it's been a day and my package arrived! I don't have a lot of time to spend on this right now. Pirate's Cove is needing me to instruct their scuba class. But this is whats happening. I'm going to take each tobacco molecule flavoring and describe them separately. Then start combining them together and follow up with descriptions. Yes, I'll let you know what exactly I'm doing every step of the way.
 

Mayasveil

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May 13, 2010
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2-Acetyl Pyrazine in a 10% solution:

It's about 30 degrees here in the Northern Woods, and when I first saw this puppy, crystals were floating in a clump the size of a quarter. After letting it get to room temperature and shaking it a few times; it dissolved quite nicely.

Color is a slightly... and I do mean slightly, a transparent yellow. Keep in mind, this was after it was completely dissolved.

Smell: Corn chips was my first impression, and strong at that. First thought was ... I wonder if this is in the DK Tab base., cuz it sure smells familiar.

Sci background info:

CAS Number : 22047-25-2
(EINECS) Number : 244-753-5
FEMA Number : 3126
COE Number : 2286
Molecular Weight : 122.1246400
Formula : C6 H6 N2 O

Soluble in:

alcohol
dipropylene glycol
water, 6.652e+004 mg/L @ 25 °C (est)

What other companies have used this for:

Used not only for popcorn type flavours, but also in roast nut flavours (hazelnut, peanut, almond), chocolate, bread and yeast type flavors.

Normal use levels in finished consumer product: 0.05-5 ppm. Council of Europe limits: foods (5 ppm); beverages (5 ppm).
Recommendation for 2-acetyl pyrazine flavor usage levels up to 10.0000 ppm in the finished product.

The last 2 sentences can be confusing. I'll explain more on that in a bit.

This note is found naturally in:
almond roasted almond
bread
cocoa
coffee
filbert
peanut
popcorn
potato chip
sesame oil

Oppps, I've gotta hit the road. I'll be back later. By the way, the above information can be found at ...The Good Scents Company
 

perlionsmitnick

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Sep 14, 2010
459
135
TX
Hey you guys. I've been thinking ...(which usually gets me into trouble) about trying to diy my own unique tobacco flavoring using "molecules" that make up tobacco flavoring and not sure where to start. I've just ordered some Tetramethylpyrazine, Trimethyl Pyrazine, Acetylpyridine-2, Acetyl Pyrazine and Guaiacol. Does anybody have any experience with these? Any information outside of CAS information would be fantastic. I'll post my impressions for each individual molecule and combination of them here.
I hope this is going to be a wonderful journey.

This one gave me the willys after I had ordered some. Guaiacol MSDS



DEVELOPMENTAL TOXICITY: Not available. The substance may be toxic to central nervous system (CNS). Repeated or
prolonged exposure to the substance can produce target organs damage


http://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/p-6824-guaiacol-1-pg.aspx
 
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Mayasveil

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May 13, 2010
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Hi, Perlionsmitnick thanks for popping in and for your valuable input. Here is what I discovered about Guaiacol and yes, these compounds were purchased at TPA. All chemical compounds are dangerous at given levels.

FDA Regulation. : FDA PART 172 -- FOOD ADDITIVES PERMITTED FOR DIRECT ADDITION TO FOOD FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION
Subpart F--Flavoring Agents and Related Substances
Sec. 172.515 Synthetic flavoring substances and adjuvants.

Recommendation for guaiacol flavor usage levels up to :
2.0000 ppm in the finished product.

Guaiacol is found in the following products:

beer
boronia absolute @ 0.02%
butter
celery seed
cinnamon
cloudberry
cocoa
coffee roasted coffee
filbert roasted filbert
guaiacwood
ketaki flower oil india @ 0.30%
milk
passion fruit
peanut roasted peanut
popcorn
rice black rice cooked
rice cooked rice
rice cooked rice
rue plant
rum
sesame seed roasted
soya bean
tea
tobacco leaf
tomato
whiskey
wine
ylang ylang oil @ 0.17%


This is what I know about that chemical for now. I probably won't get to it for at least a week or so. Currently I'm working on 2-Acetyl Pyrazine. Do you know anything about this product? Have you used any tobacco molecules?
 
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