i am completely mystified. when vaping, and i vaped for 9 months without any analog, i cleared my throat all day long and had constant phlegm. tried pg and vg made no difference. went back to smoking and throat clearing and phlegm gone. i might add the throat clearing and phlegm started after 6 months. first six months noo problems. cannot for the life of me figure this out. just thought i would pass this along. not happy smoking again but at least im not clearing my throat all day long.
totaly bizarre: smoking again and side effects from vaping disappeared
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That sucks. Did you feel your chest was congested with vaping? I've been at it about 2-3 months and my chest and breathing are way worse than when smoking and i've tried everything. When I vape PG my face looks like a junkie's and when I vape VG I can barely breath. I do the VG though because I can't go out in public looking like I do when I vape PG. Everybody says how much better they feel but I feel way worse. I have less energy and feel strung out. I have to frequently clear my throat as well. I'm going to try some swedish snus, you should check that out as well, otherwise I might have to go back to smoking too 
Here is a quote from another thread here that may interest you
I too feel that it is the VG that adds to congestion and throat clearing. I use a 50/50 mix and just deal with it.
I have found that if I vape VG my throat gets coated and I have to continually clear my throat and cough. If I stick with PG I don't have any problems. So I now stick with PG or a very slight VG blend.
I too feel that it is the VG that adds to congestion and throat clearing. I use a 50/50 mix and just deal with it.
Some folks can tolerate vaping while others can not. There is really no clear cut answer since everyone's body chemistry, health history & vaping habit is different. Unfortunately we are all lab rats when it comes to vaping and the jury is still out when it comes to long term effects.
I was in a somewhat different boat as I had been using snus for about 3 years with no vaping. I tried e-cgs when WTA came out and after about 4 months found my breathing had gone down hill. I had a heavy feeling in my chest and just overall felt lousy. I was also bringing up a clear mucus, sometimes in large quantities.
I wasn't going to even try to sort out the PG/VG thing. As far as I know it all effected my badly.
I quit vaping and just continued on with the snus as I had been doing and everything cleared up in short order. I'm guessing that for some the PG/VG acts as an irritant and the body is simple trying to get rid of it.
Come on down to the smokeless section of the forum if you have any questions about snus
Smokeless tobacco
I wasn't going to even try to sort out the PG/VG thing. As far as I know it all effected my badly.
I quit vaping and just continued on with the snus as I had been doing and everything cleared up in short order. I'm guessing that for some the PG/VG acts as an irritant and the body is simple trying to get rid of it.
Come on down to the smokeless section of the forum if you have any questions about snus
Smokeless tobacco
Your bronchi (windpipe) is covered with cilia, little hairs that sweep out foreign materials from your airways. Cigarette smoke kills them and they stop working. When you stop smoking, they begin to regenerate. So if you are older, and had been smoking for a very long time, it could be that when your problems with throat clearing started, your cilia had begun to come back and remove foreign materials. When you started smoking again, the cilia were killed off and your problem ended. This is the same reason that smoker's cough often gets much worse after quitting. Just a guess as to why, sorry can't offer a solution. Smoking cigarettes is never recommended.
Yes. This is what I was thinking as well. Here is a link that explains it as well.... go down to the "clearing the air" section, it talks about the cilia. When your cilia stop functioning, your body can't keep out/get rid of the nasties as well, and after years of smoking, all that crap builds up in your lungs and when you quit, and your cilia start regaining function, which could take some time (explaining why you didn't start getting really congested until 6 months out), your body starts getting rid of all of the crap that it wasn't able to when your cilia weren't working properly. I don't know if you ever quit smoking before for a substantial amount of time, but what you're experiencing would happen whether you were vaping or not. It takes some time for your system to clear out all of the crap, but once it does you will feel much better. Unfortunately, the only solution to your problem is to wait it out. However, this isn't to say that there aren't people out there that are sensitive to vaping, seems many people are sensitive to the pg, and some to vg, and you might want to look that up because I've heard of other symptoms from these sensitivities that are unrelated to respiratory function. It sounds to me like it's not a sensitivity to the vaping, but just your body clearing out the crap. I've quit smoking in the past a number of times (of course just to pick it up again later), but this happened to me every time. The cough, the mucus, ugh, all of it got SOOO much worse before it got better. It happened to me when I started vaping as well, but I didn't think anything of it because I'd experienced it before and knew what it was, and, eventually, it cleared up. I do think that VG may have the potential to exasperate the problem though, being as thick as it is. Personally I'm not a fan, and at one time I decided to try a mix with a higher ratio of VG than PG, and it did seem to clog me up a bit. So if you're dedicated enough to stick it out, I would go with a higher PG ratio, and give it some time. I wish I could remember how long it took me to get over the coughing and throat clearing (I SOOO feel your pain with that!!! It's so obnoxious! Mine started before I even quit smoking, and then got worse for a while, and my ex was always complaining and telling me to stop, as if I could control that), and the phlegm, so that I could try to give you idea of how long it "normally" takes before it stops, but I know it was at least a few months... Since everyone's bodies are different though, as are our smoking habits, you couldn't expect it to be the same for any one person. Anyway, if I were you I would try to stick it out. I know how defeated it can make you feel when it seems like the vaping isn't working out... the thought you have to go back to smoking.... it sucks. I found it impossible to find a juice that was even vapable to me, and after 2 years now, still haven't found anything that's any better than tolerable, and I know that's not the same, but I was feeling a little defeated over that. If I can't stand it, why not just go back to analogs right? But, I'm still looking.... Anyway, I hope this helps... Hopes it can help someone anyway, because maybe it isn't the case with you, but it could be!!! So, good luck!!!! I hope you find one way or another to be smoke free!
I was just thinking about you guys talking about smokeless tobacco, and just wanted to throw out some info....
Though your chances of LUNG cancer may go down (and of course other respiratory related diseases)when switching from cigarettes to smokeless tobacco, your chances of heart disease, other cancers and other diseases DO NOT. I'm not trying to be condecending (just trying to provide some info), I know that you all are aware that you're not eliminating risk by switching to smokeless tobacco, but I think that many people underestimate that risk. Smokeless tobacco contains 28 carcinogens (cancer causing agents)*. Now this is less than the 43 known carcinogens** in cigarettes, but there are still significant risks for cancer and othere diseases. The CDC page I linked below has lot's of information on that. When most people think of cancer from smoking, they think lung cancer. When most people think of cancer from smokeless tobacco, they think cancers of the oral cavity such as gum or lip cancer. They don't think about how the chemicals in tobacco products affect them systemically. Nicotine, as well as the rest of the chemicals in tobacco, are absorbed into the body systemically***. This means that the chemicals don't just cause disease on the parts of the body they actually come into direct contact with, they can cause disease in many other places as well. The route of absorption for smokeless tobacco is through the oral mucosa and directly into the blood stream. Once in the blood stream all of these chemicals are circulated through your entire body, therefore giving them the potential to cause disease in any of your organs. A few more things to consider about smokeless tobacco..... smokeless tobacco delivers significantly more nicotine to your system than cigarettes. "The nicotine in smokeless tobacco may increase the risk for sudden death from a condition where the heart does not beat properly (ventricular arrhythmias) and, as a result, the heart pumps little or no blood to the body's organs."**** Something else to think about is the effect this stuff has on your teeth and gums. Smokeless tobacco is loaded with sugar and salt to make it taste better, and you're just letting this stuff sit in your mouth up against your teeth and gums. This leads to tooth decay and periodontal (gum) disease******. And as if the risk of heart disease from the tobacco alone isn't enough, periodontal disease increases your risk for heart disease even further (I'm a dental assistant, which is why I know this, but google it if you don't believe me, lol, I've already got too many references listed as it is, lol). Gum disease is also the leading cause of tooth loss (again, google it). And, for the men out there, if all of this isn't enough to persuade you to stay away from the smokeless tobacco, I have two words for you: erectile dysfunction*****. Smokeless tobacco can also cause lowered sperm count* as well.
So, before you go switching to smokeless tobacco, thinking that it's the lesser of two evils, remember that there's just as much risk in the use of smokeless tobacco as there is in smoking.
References:
All of my references except for two are from the CDC and NIH, and both of these sites have great info on all of this stuff. The dental one is just from google, but the info is correct, you can also find the same information through the ADA website as well.
*CDC - Fact Sheet - Smokeless Tobacco Facts - Smoking & Tobacco Use
**http://www.smoke-free.ca/factsheets/pdf/carcinogens.pdf
***Metabolism
****CDC - Fact Sheet - Tobacco-Related Mortality - Smoking & Tobacco Use
*****Risks of tobacco: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia (this site has a good to-the-point lists of health risks, so take a look)
******Smokeless Tobacco - Massachusetts Dental Society
Though your chances of LUNG cancer may go down (and of course other respiratory related diseases)when switching from cigarettes to smokeless tobacco, your chances of heart disease, other cancers and other diseases DO NOT. I'm not trying to be condecending (just trying to provide some info), I know that you all are aware that you're not eliminating risk by switching to smokeless tobacco, but I think that many people underestimate that risk. Smokeless tobacco contains 28 carcinogens (cancer causing agents)*. Now this is less than the 43 known carcinogens** in cigarettes, but there are still significant risks for cancer and othere diseases. The CDC page I linked below has lot's of information on that. When most people think of cancer from smoking, they think lung cancer. When most people think of cancer from smokeless tobacco, they think cancers of the oral cavity such as gum or lip cancer. They don't think about how the chemicals in tobacco products affect them systemically. Nicotine, as well as the rest of the chemicals in tobacco, are absorbed into the body systemically***. This means that the chemicals don't just cause disease on the parts of the body they actually come into direct contact with, they can cause disease in many other places as well. The route of absorption for smokeless tobacco is through the oral mucosa and directly into the blood stream. Once in the blood stream all of these chemicals are circulated through your entire body, therefore giving them the potential to cause disease in any of your organs. A few more things to consider about smokeless tobacco..... smokeless tobacco delivers significantly more nicotine to your system than cigarettes. "The nicotine in smokeless tobacco may increase the risk for sudden death from a condition where the heart does not beat properly (ventricular arrhythmias) and, as a result, the heart pumps little or no blood to the body's organs."**** Something else to think about is the effect this stuff has on your teeth and gums. Smokeless tobacco is loaded with sugar and salt to make it taste better, and you're just letting this stuff sit in your mouth up against your teeth and gums. This leads to tooth decay and periodontal (gum) disease******. And as if the risk of heart disease from the tobacco alone isn't enough, periodontal disease increases your risk for heart disease even further (I'm a dental assistant, which is why I know this, but google it if you don't believe me, lol, I've already got too many references listed as it is, lol). Gum disease is also the leading cause of tooth loss (again, google it). And, for the men out there, if all of this isn't enough to persuade you to stay away from the smokeless tobacco, I have two words for you: erectile dysfunction*****. Smokeless tobacco can also cause lowered sperm count* as well.
So, before you go switching to smokeless tobacco, thinking that it's the lesser of two evils, remember that there's just as much risk in the use of smokeless tobacco as there is in smoking.
References:
All of my references except for two are from the CDC and NIH, and both of these sites have great info on all of this stuff. The dental one is just from google, but the info is correct, you can also find the same information through the ADA website as well.
*CDC - Fact Sheet - Smokeless Tobacco Facts - Smoking & Tobacco Use
**http://www.smoke-free.ca/factsheets/pdf/carcinogens.pdf
***Metabolism
****CDC - Fact Sheet - Tobacco-Related Mortality - Smoking & Tobacco Use
*****Risks of tobacco: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia (this site has a good to-the-point lists of health risks, so take a look
)******Smokeless Tobacco - Massachusetts Dental Society
You are wrong in just about every way possible when it comes to smokeless tobacco. It sounds as if you've been well indoctrinated by the ANTZ. I'm not blaming you...... it's a common occurrence in todays environment of anti-tobacco brain washing. You appear to be squeaky clean in that department.
I hardly know where to begin....... I mean...... how can anyone possible untangle the mess you've made................................. not blaming you........ really..........just saying.........
First off you want to do a bit of reading. Not the CDC..... or any of the any fanatical gangs around...... but the real studies and the people who have taken a serious look at the studies.
Tobaccoharmreduction.org
http://rodutobaccotruth.blogspot.com/
Smoke-free Tobacco
Studies out of Sweden, where snus is the most popular form of tobacco/nicotine use, are showing no connection to any form or cancer, is not a contributing factor in heart disease, and essentially every other disease associated with smoking. Smokeless tobacco users are not just trading one disease for another, but are in fact reducing there chances for tobacco related disease by about 100 times.
If we actually want to be on the safe side I would recommend snus over vaping by a long shoot. It's been in use for a few hundred years and has decades of studies to back it up. It's a tobacco harm reduction product that is well proven and holds no surprises. There are many unknowns with vaping, and like the OP shows, some people simple don't get along with it.
Weither it's a reaction to PG/VG, flavorings, lack of minor alkaloids, equipment hassles, or any or all of these, it doesn't work for everyone.
Fortunately there are a number of other products that may very well work. Any of the smokeless tobacco products from the US or Northern Europe, and especially snus, dissolvables, and nasal snuff,
are known to be dramatically less harmful then smoking. The choices are not just e-cigs or smoking. For many people that's nearly as bad as the quit or die approach.
I hardly know where to begin....... I mean...... how can anyone possible untangle the mess you've made................................. not blaming you........ really..........just saying.........
First off you want to do a bit of reading. Not the CDC..... or any of the any fanatical gangs around...... but the real studies and the people who have taken a serious look at the studies.
Tobaccoharmreduction.org
http://rodutobaccotruth.blogspot.com/
Smoke-free Tobacco
Studies out of Sweden, where snus is the most popular form of tobacco/nicotine use, are showing no connection to any form or cancer, is not a contributing factor in heart disease, and essentially every other disease associated with smoking. Smokeless tobacco users are not just trading one disease for another, but are in fact reducing there chances for tobacco related disease by about 100 times.
If we actually want to be on the safe side I would recommend snus over vaping by a long shoot. It's been in use for a few hundred years and has decades of studies to back it up. It's a tobacco harm reduction product that is well proven and holds no surprises. There are many unknowns with vaping, and like the OP shows, some people simple don't get along with it.
Weither it's a reaction to PG/VG, flavorings, lack of minor alkaloids, equipment hassles, or any or all of these, it doesn't work for everyone.
Fortunately there are a number of other products that may very well work. Any of the smokeless tobacco products from the US or Northern Europe, and especially snus, dissolvables, and nasal snuff,
are known to be dramatically less harmful then smoking. The choices are not just e-cigs or smoking. For many people that's nearly as bad as the quit or die approach.
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Stubby is correct. Every "fact" you cited is known ANTZ propaganda that has no real scientific evidence to support it, other than junk science and a few isolated studies that other researchers haven't been able to duplicate.
Kristin, Stubby. I'm confused. Let me preface by saying I don't have an opinion on this as I haven't read deeply or widely, but here is what I noticed just on glance:
Looking at the curricula vitae of the top tobaccoharmreduction guy he has a BA in history and math, and an MA and PhD in Public Policy. No medical training of any kind. The other one is a dentist.
Then you have info on the other side from the CDC, with pretty stellar medical credentials and a huge staff of doctors and medical researchers with impressive credentials in just about every imaginable *medical* specialty.
Are you saying the latter are propagandists who practice junk science, as opposed to the 1st group?
Looking at the curricula vitae of the top tobaccoharmreduction guy he has a BA in history and math, and an MA and PhD in Public Policy. No medical training of any kind. The other one is a dentist.
Then you have info on the other side from the CDC, with pretty stellar medical credentials and a huge staff of doctors and medical researchers with impressive credentials in just about every imaginable *medical* specialty.
Are you saying the latter are propagandists who practice junk science, as opposed to the 1st group?
References:
All of my references except for two are from the CDC and NIH, and both of these sites have great info on all of this stuff. The dental one is just from google, but the info is correct, you can also find the same information through the ADA website as well.
*CDC - Fact Sheet - Smokeless Tobacco Facts - Smoking & Tobacco Use
**http://www.smoke-free.ca/factsheets/pdf/carcinogens.pdf
***Metabolism
****CDC - Fact Sheet - Tobacco-Related Mortality - Smoking & Tobacco Use
*****Risks of tobacco: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia (this site has a good to-the-point lists of health risks, so take a look
******Smokeless Tobacco - Massachusetts Dental Society
The question about Brad Rodu has come up recently on another thread. Here is a link to a reply
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...e-absorption-contradiction-6.html#post6702407
Enough about that as it avoids the real question regarding harm reduction.
It you go to the sites listed earlier in the thread which I linked to above it all sounds pretty ominous. Bad things will surely happen if you use smokeless tobacco.
The problem is that if you scroll to the bottom of the pages to look for references what you find is there are no real studies to back up what they are saying. They are simply not there. The closest I could find is a hugh paper by WHO on smokeless tobacco, and WHO certainly does not have a good reputation for reliable information.
The same thing happens when you link to groups like the American Caner Society, American Lung Association, American Heart Association, etc. They are all saying the same thing about smokeless tobacco, nearly word for word, and none of them have any credible links to back up there claims. I know because I have gone through all of the links these groups provided and was quite amazed at the nearly complete lack of any real information or real studies. They seem to be making this stuff up out of thin air, repeating it over and over, and expect it to pass mustard.
This is how propaganda works. Say something often enough and surely it must be true.
Of course the reason they don't have credible links is because if you really look at the studies done on smokeless tobacco what you find is the risk is actually quite low.
What Brad Rodu, tobacco harm reduction organization, and the like have been doing is to look at the actual studies on smokeless tobacco. If you read through Brad Rodu's blog he links to many studies on smokeless tobacco and simple does an analysis of the results.
If you really want to dig into the issue a good place to start is the 2007 report by the Royal College of Physicians
http://www.tobaccoprogram.org/pdf/4fc74817-64c5-4105-951e-38239b09c5db.pdf
The report looks at many studies and comes to the conclusion that smokeless tobacco from the US and norther Europe is significantly less harmful then smoking.
There are millions of dollars flowing into tobacco control groups, and a good part of that from BP. There are very good reasons for these groups to be demonizing the use of smokeless tobacco. If the truth about the dangers of smokeless tobacco, or lack of it, becomes common public knowledge, and people switch to tobacco/nicotine products with a radically reduced risk factor, these groups to a large extent would be out of business.
Governments are also making a good chunk of their revenue from tobacco. If the tobacco money dried up many states in the US would simple go belly up in short order. Of course it would be hard to justify the high taxes on tobacco products if that product is shown to be about 100 times less harmful then smoking. Also considering the number of lives that would be saved when people switched.
There are an awful lot of interested parties involved in keeping up the illusion and they want nothing more then to continue on with the current situation. Its been good for a lot of people, except the many thousands who die every year from smoking related diseases.
So it goes in the land of the free and the home of the brave
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Pretty much - yes. If you ask any former tobacco control researcher/scientist what happened when they challenged the status quo of "all tobacco kills equally" you will hear story upon story of intimidation up to and including losing their jobs. The CDC, like the FDA, has to play politics.
In either case, where is the science to back up their claims? As Stubby pointed out, it is pretty much non-existent. CASAA director Dr. Carl Phillips is active in tobacco harm reduction and concurs with what Stubby and I are saying. He helped write the book on THR.
His credentials go beyond just a PhD in public policy and while he is not a medical doctor, he has plenty of research experience (which medical doctors do NOT have - they fix people, not study them) and he is an epidemiologist:
Note that some of that is in past tense because Dr. Phillips (also Dr. Siegel) was pretty much blacklisted and lost his university job because he called out researchers and anti-tobacco groups. If you don't tow the abstinence-only, all tobacco is evil line then you can find yourself out of a job.
Here is an op-ed by 2 MDs and the president of the American Council on Science and Health about this very topic that also supports what we are saying: The truth about reduced risk smokeless tobacco
I cannot give you any rational reason WHY the CDC lies about smokeless tobacco, only point out that none of its claims hold up under close scrutiny and it uses classic word-twisting to convince the public that smokeless is as dangerous or nearly as dangerous as smoking.
CDC says: "Smokeless tobacco is not a safe alternative to smoking cigarettes."
True, but neither are FDA-approved nicotine products and smoking cessation drugs - they are only SAFER. Why do they not clearly compare the risks of smoking vs. smokeless, rather than hide behind a true-but-not-really-telling-the-truth statement of "smokeless is not safe?"
CDC says: "Smokeless tobacco use can cause cancer, oral health problems, and nicotine addiction."
True, but according to the US National Cancer Institutes Surveillance Epidemiology and End Results (SEER) Database, the actual risk of developing oral cancer for ANY reason (I even used the higher stats for men, the most common smokeless users) is 1.45% whether you use smokeless or not. Compare that the the risk of lung cancer at 7.66% for men. Right after stating that smokeless is not a safe alternative to smoking, the CDC states smokeless causes cancer, yet for some reason, doesn't explain the risks are much greater for a smoking related cancer. Why? And the two other points - oral health and nicotine addiction - are relatively minor. Extensive research has shown that snus and nicotine do not cause periodontal disease - although poor dental hygiene does.
CDC says: "Smokeless tobacco contains 28 cancer-causing agents (carcinogens)"
True, and coffee has 21 has cancer-causing agents. The CDC knows that the the presence of cancer-causing agents does not determine risk.
CDC says: "Smokeless tobacco is a known cause of human cancer; it increases the risk of developing cancer of the oral cavity."
See above comment about the actual risk.
CDC says AGAIN at the end of their "facts" page: "Smokeless tobacco is not a safe substitute for smoking cigarettes." in BIG BOLD LETTERS.
So what are they telling smokers who don't want to quit tobacco use with that message? Just keep smoking, even though your chances of oral cancer are nearly double and you'll have the much greater risks of heart disease and lung and other cancers.
How is that, in any way, a responsible message coming from the CDC's staff of doctors and medical researchers with "stellar medical credentials" and "impressive credentials in just about every imaginable *medical* specialty?"
Kristen, Stubby,
Thank you both for your in-depth replies. I appreciate your dilligence. I'm not one to swallow hook line and sinker anything from the medical community, and yes, I do like to "look behind the curtain".
I do very much appreciate epidemiological studies, and Kristen, agree with your "{medical doctors} fix people, not study them)" -----------------except they don't really succeed at fixing people either LOL People have to fix themselves, really, or at least, take a part in it.
I know what you are talking about since one of my favorite epidemiologists, who wrote The China Study, is being similarly lambasted by *some* in the establishment medical community ---- so, I do understand how this happens.
BTW, interesting book if you care to read it. Amazon.com: The China Study: The Most Comprehensive Study of Nutrition Ever Conducted and the Startling Implications for Diet, Weight Loss and Long-Term Health (9781932100389): Thomas M. Campbell II, T. Colin Campbell: Books
IN the meantime, I will dig in to the links ya'll gave, look forward to learning more. Thank you.
Thank you both for your in-depth replies. I appreciate your dilligence. I'm not one to swallow hook line and sinker anything from the medical community, and yes, I do like to "look behind the curtain".
I do very much appreciate epidemiological studies, and Kristen, agree with your "{medical doctors} fix people, not study them)" -----------------except they don't really succeed at fixing people either LOL People have to fix themselves, really, or at least, take a part in it.
I know what you are talking about since one of my favorite epidemiologists, who wrote The China Study, is being similarly lambasted by *some* in the establishment medical community ---- so, I do understand how this happens.
BTW, interesting book if you care to read it. Amazon.com: The China Study: The Most Comprehensive Study of Nutrition Ever Conducted and the Startling Implications for Diet, Weight Loss and Long-Term Health (9781932100389): Thomas M. Campbell II, T. Colin Campbell: Books
IN the meantime, I will dig in to the links ya'll gave, look forward to learning more. Thank you.
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