Underage Vaping

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BluzKing

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See ^^^^ This is the problem

#1 We do not KNOW it is safer, we ASSUME that because there is no combustion and fewer chemical, that it is safer. There are no real studies one way or the other. So we can NOT know.

2# It is associated with smoking because it was created as a product to help people QUIT smoking. Kinda a association by design. Beer is associated with getting drunk, but was created as a beverage that was safer to drink than water.

3# Nicotine is the MOST addicitive substance known to man, period....... I would submit that the nic may be more affective vaped than smoke because most of it is not incinerated prior to delivery.

Not to be picky, but Nicotine is NOT the most addictive substance known to man. That honor belongs to ......, hands down. With a dependence rating of 2.89 on a scale of 3, no drug is more dangerous and desired by addicts than the "Big H." {Other stuff} ....... is also more addictive than Nicotine. Obviously, both of these drugs are more powerful, destructive, and more difficult to get than Nicotine, therefore the numbers of people addicted to Nicotine dwarf the number of folks addicted to ...... or {Other Stuff}; there are an estimated 50,000,000 Americans hooked on Nicotine, but to my knowledge, very few if any have died as a direct result of Nicotine addiction...it's the effects of tobacco smoke that contribute to the majority of Nicotine related deaths. Most Nicotine related deaths are a result of using the drug as a pesticide,and "tobacco poisoning" or Green Tobacco Sickness, which is caused by continued direct contact with the green tobacco plant during harvesting.

In my opinion, children should not be allowed to experiment with any means of ingesting Nicotine until they reach an acceptable age of responsibility, generally assumed to be 18 years of age. The restriction of vaping materials to "adults only" is a reasonable and safe restriction, and as vapers, I believe we should support and embrace this regulation for our own good, the good of the industry, and of course, the children.
 
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Robino1

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In order for smokers to successfully be shunned, it had to be known that nicotine was a very, VERY bad thing. Those against smoking were very successful. In fact they were so successful that a vitamin based nicotine was renamed because of the stigma surrounding nicotine. Vitamin B3 = Niacin = nicotinic acid all based on Nicotine.

Source: Nicotine vs nicotinic acid (niacin) -- Science & Technology -- Sott.net

Even if lies had to be told to get to where people believed that nic was bad
 
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Vatigu

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See ^^^^ This is the problem

#1 We do not KNOW it is safer, we ASSUME that because there is no combustion and fewer chemical, that it is safer. There are no real studies one way or the other. So we can NOT know.

2# It is associated with smoking because it was created as a product to help people QUIT smoking. Kinda a association by design. Beer is associated with getting drunk, but was created as a beverage that was safer to drink than water.

3# Nicotine is the MOST addicitive substance known to man, period....... I would submit that the nic may be more affective vaped than smoke because most of it is not incinerated prior to delivery.

Actually I wouldn't categorize nic as anywhere near the most addictive - especially when vaped studies are showing the opposite - that it's the particular blend of chemicals that make cigarettes so much more addictive than other forms of nicotine intake.

I smoked my first cigarette when I was 14 to experiment and I hated the things - then when I was 19 I put up with it to fit in until I became dependent on it - I imagine most people did not light up and immediately want a second one when they first started smoking. They probably coughed themselves silly and then did it again and again because they thought it was cool and eventually became dependent on the nic boost. Caffeine is equally addictive. You all know that coffee fiend half the people you work with probably drink 2-3 cups a day. Guess what? Caffeine has withdrawal symptoms and is also a stimulant, it also causes a heart rate increase and constriction of the veins.

So while I'll agree that kids shouldn't start vaping; if they don't already smoke, because we don't know the true long term effects. Saying they shouldn't vape nic carries the same misunderstanding as saying coffee should be regulated like cigarettes.

What we do know: If vaping does have ill effects - it's probably related to the flavorings as we have plenty of evidence showing long term exposure to PG/VG aerosol.
Nicotine according to some studies may even be a cure on it's own (shown to be very effective at treating/preventing Parkinson's/Alzheimer's) Nicotine of course carries the same inherent risks as any stimulant (including caffeine) so it's safe to say that nicotine on it's own is not really harming anyone (except for some studies that have shown where it helps tumors that already exist grow, but this means you already have cancer and because nicotine on it's own is not a carcinogen this is not a risk for a non-cancer patient)
We need to stop demonizing vaping devices ourselves. We KNOW they are better than smoking and this is fact not conjecture, and this is plainly obvious because even the chemicals that HAVE been found to exist in PV aerosol all exist in much higher quantities in cigarette smoke.

That was my rant at the individuals on this forum who are helping to demonize vaping themselves.

My personal stance is that kids shouldn't vape except as a means to quit a pre-existing smoking addiction. And that if anyone ever does get a PV approved as a cessation device that it be by prescription only to minors. But at the end of the day I would prefer 30% of youth vaping and 0% smoking any day compared to 20% smoking.
 
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UnclePsyko

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I think you may be surprised if you take the time to read this: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...2-just-how-addictive-e-cigs.html#post14877233

In particular

If anyone cares to take a stroll through the ECF Library: The ECF Library


In order for smokers to successfully be shunned, it had to be known that nicotine was a very, VERY bad thing. Those against smoking were very successful. In fact they were so successful that a vitamin based nicotine was renamed because of the stigma surrounding nicotine. Vitamin B3 = Niacin = nicotinic acid all based on Nicotine.

Source: Nicotine vs nicotinic acid (niacin) -- Science & Technology -- Sott.net

Even if lies had to be told to get to where people believed that nic was bad

Heh... We can always count on you for links and info!
I think that I'll nick-name you "Miss Information" for your uncanny ability to locate and snuff out misinformation! :D
although drunkenbatman is still quicker at swooping in on a thread and rattling it up a bit...
 

Robino1

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Heh... We can always count on you for links and info!
I think that I'll nick-name you "Miss Information" for your uncanny ability to locate and snuff out misinformation! :D
although drunkenbatman is still quicker at swooping in on a thread and rattling it up a bit...

I'm getting all kinds of names here :blink: Bwahahahahaha ! That is cute though! :D

how many of us were smoking underage?

I didn't start till I was 18, but that's the exception not the norm

I was 16 when I started full time, a few years younger with experimentation.
 

philoshop

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So I have noticed in forums across the net, social media and even in personal conversations, that many people seem to share the opinion of being against underage vaping. Simply my question is what is wrong about underage vaping?

Why do you ask?

ETA: Welcome to ECF.
 

tj99959

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    I can tell you (from experience) that it was illegal for kids to buy cigarettes in the 1940s ... but we did!

    I can also tell you (from experience) that if that one law is not enforced, no other law will make any difference. Kids are still buying cigarettes.

    What law makers seem to forget is that kids are an inventive lot, and if there is a will ... there is a way.
    How many kids do you know, that would not be capable of making their own e-cig?

    It's soooooooooooooo complicated
    P1000474.jpg


    I think that people are against it because it is more like a gate way into smoking analogs.

    You have that backwards, smoking is a gateway into vaping!
     
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    BlkWolfMidnight

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    Er, uh, why, just why would you even ask this.

    Ok, maybe I was the bad seed in my community because I thought like the OP did, I was 14 and remember saying that same thing about Analog Cigs. I did smoke, I bummed cigs off anyone I could, I did it because "It was cool" and of course no adult was going to tell me otherwise. I sit here wondering why I didn't listen now.

    Sure, you'll be fine for a bit..until you try to quit then the real fun starts. If your lucky you can step down and off Nicotine or at least to a safe level without any major issues. This is depending on addiction tendencies and body chemistry of course, if it goes south though let me tell you what to expect.
    Headaches, Nausea, sore or stiff joints, erratic heart rate, night sweats, nightmares, possibly insomnia, mood swings and the ever so wonderful trembling. This of course will be argued I'm sure and articles posted of how Nicotine isn't that addictive but lets be real here it depends on the person's reaction to it to begin with.

    "Nicotine also attaches to neurons (brain cells) that release a neurotransmitter called dopamine. Nicotine stimulates neurons to release unusually large amounts of dopamine. Dopamine stimulates the brain’s pleasure and reward circuit, a group of brain structures called the limbic system involved in appetite, learning, memory, and feelings of pleasure. Normally, pleasurable feelings come from food, comfort, and the company of people you love. But smoking cigarettes causes a flood of dopamine in the smoker’s brain. Its this flood of dopamine that gives the smoker intense feelings of pleasure.6, 7

    Normally, neurons reabsorb neurotransmitters after they’ve done their job of signaling other brain cells. But cigarette smoke causes dopamine to stay in the spaces between neurons called synapses. Researchers don’t yet know exactly what component of tobacco smoke blocks the reabsorption of dopamine into neurons.
    7 man with headache, stressed out In 40 minutes, half the effects of nicotine are gone. So smokers get the urge to light up for another dose of the drug. After repeated doses of nicotine, the brain changes. To adjust to too much dopamine, the brain cuts production of the neurotransmitter and reduces the number of some receptors. Now, the smoker needs nicotine just to create normal levels of dopamine in his or her brain. Without nicotine, the smoker feels irritable and depressed. The smoker has trained the limbic system to crave tobacco. Think about how you long for a cold drink on a hot day. Or how you want a sandwich when you are hungry. Craving for tobacco is much stronger
    < ref: HEALTH - Facts on Drugs: Nicotine >"

    You'll find out quick that they group Smoking in with Nicotine so finding the facts is hard, the real truth is that it is addictive and it is hard to quit because of how it affects your body.

    As for the vaping 0 nic, I don't agree with it. I won't use the gateway argument but why would you want to train your lungs to inhale anything other then oxygen or even offer the temptation. If I had a kid I'd keep the very, very far away from the temptation of even trying it after what I've gone through. Forget this peer pressure dooky that is in todays society because when I grew up I feared things in this order " God first then my parents" and that is missing in todays society. Respect is just a word today and means nothing to the young bucks growing up now a days, I'm sorry to say that.
     
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    drunkenbatman

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    Heh... We can always count on you for links and info!
    I think that I'll nick-name you "Miss Information" for your uncanny ability to locate and snuff out misinformation! :D
    although drunkenbatman is still quicker at swooping in on a thread and rattling it up a bit...

    *innocent face*

    Also, Robino1s nickname is Roro.

    I know, it's sticky right? Enjoy it.
     

    Robino1

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    Er, uh, why, just why would you even ask this.

    Ok, maybe I was the bad seed in my community because I thought like the OP did, I was 14 and remember saying that same thing about Analog Cigs. I did smoke, I bummed cigs off anyone I could, I did it because "It was cool" and of course no adult was going to tell me otherwise. I sit here wondering why I didn't listen now.

    Sure, you'll be fine for a bit..until you try to quit then the real fun starts. If your lucky you can step down and off Nicotine or at least to a safe level without any major issues. This is depending on addiction tendencies and body chemistry of course, if it goes south though let me tell you what to expect.
    Headaches, Nausea, sore or stiff joints, erratic heart rate, night sweats, nightmares, possibly insomnia, mood swings and the ever so wonderful trembling. This of course will be argued I'm sure and articles posted of how Nicotine isn't that addictive but lets be real here it depends on the person's reaction to it to begin with.

    "Nicotine also attaches to neurons (brain cells) that release a neurotransmitter called dopamine. Nicotine stimulates neurons to release unusually large amounts of dopamine. Dopamine stimulates the brain’s pleasure and reward circuit, a group of brain structures called the limbic system involved in appetite, learning, memory, and feelings of pleasure. Normally, pleasurable feelings come from food, comfort, and the company of people you love. But smoking cigarettes causes a flood of dopamine in the smoker’s brain. Its this flood of dopamine that gives the smoker intense feelings of pleasure.6, 7

    Normally, neurons reabsorb neurotransmitters after they’ve done their job of signaling other brain cells. But cigarette smoke causes dopamine to stay in the spaces between neurons called synapses. Researchers don’t yet know exactly what component of tobacco smoke blocks the reabsorption of dopamine into neurons.
    7 man with headache, stressed out In 40 minutes, half the effects of nicotine are gone. So smokers get the urge to light up for another dose of the drug. After repeated doses of nicotine, the brain changes. To adjust to too much dopamine, the brain cuts production of the neurotransmitter and reduces the number of some receptors. Now, the smoker needs nicotine just to create normal levels of dopamine in his or her brain. Without nicotine, the smoker feels irritable and depressed. The smoker has trained the limbic system to crave tobacco. Think about how you long for a cold drink on a hot day. Or how you want a sandwich when you are hungry. Craving for tobacco is much stronger
    < ref: HEALTH - Facts on Drugs: Nicotine >"

    You'll find out quick that they group Smoking in with Nicotine so finding the facts is hard, the real truth is that it is addictive and it is hard to quit because of how it affects your body.

    As for the vaping 0 nic, I don't agree with it. I won't use the gateway argument but why would you want to train your lungs to inhale anything other then oxygen or even offer the temptation. If I had a kid I'd keep the very, very far away from the temptation of even trying it after what I've gone through. Forget this peer pressure dooky that is in todays society because when I grew up I feared things in this order " God first then my parents" and that is missing in todays society. Respect is just a word today and means nothing to the young bucks growing up now a days, I'm sorry to say that.

    From the link you provided:
    Nicotine is the drug in tobacco leaves. Whether someone smokes, chews, or sniffs tobacco, he or she is delivering nicotine to the brain. Each cigarette contains about 10 milligrams of nicotine. Nicotine is what keeps people smoking despite its harmful effects. Because the smoker inhales only some of the smoke from a cigarette and not all of each puff is absorbed in the lungs, a smoker gets about 1 to 2 milligrams of the drug from each cigarette.1 A drop of pure nicotine would kill a person—in fact, nicotine can be used as a pesticide on crops.

    Old studies, old thinking.

    Nicotine Propaganda

    [6] Part of the propaganda war on nicotine depends on it being described as a "highly toxic, addictive, dangerous, alien chemical". It is of course none of those things. In the main, it is the opposite of those things. Propaganda is the art of making people believe lies, and nowhere has it been as successful as with nicotine.

    Is it 'highly toxic'? No. Nicotine is certainly toxic, just like many normal dietary ingredients and medicines. In fact the only difference between a nutrient or a medicine and a poison is the dose. "The dose makes the poison", as doctors have known for more than 2,000 years - so it's not exactly news. Also, we now know from Prof Mayer's work (which is the only analysis of nicotine toxicity in humans) that it is far less toxic than current medical literature suggests. The current LD50 is around 20 times too low, and an LD50 for ingested nicotine will be difficult to establish as it appears difficult or impossible for a non-anaesthetised adult to ingest a fatal dose (because it is expelled by reflex). Children are a different matter though, since the vomit reflex may be absent.
     

    UnclePsyko

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    Er, uh, why, just why would you even ask this.

    Ok, maybe I was the bad seed in my community because I thought like the OP did, I was 14 and remember saying that same thing about Analog Cigs. I did smoke, I bummed cigs off anyone I could, I did it because "It was cool" and of course no adult was going to tell me otherwise. I sit here wondering why I didn't listen now.
    Here-here... Same when I was a kid. it wasn't accepted though... or was it?!?
    12140_1__17337_6.jpg
    Remember these???
    Culture / Nurture...
     

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    tj99959

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    Er, uh, why, just why would you even ask this.

    Ok, maybe I was the bad seed in my community because I thought like the OP did, I was 14 and remember saying that same thing about Analog Cigs. I did smoke, I bummed cigs off anyone I could, I did it because "It was cool" and of course no adult was going to tell me otherwise. I sit here wondering why I didn't listen now.

    Sure, you'll be fine for a bit..until you try to quit then the real fun starts. If your lucky you can step down and off Nicotine or at least to a safe level without any major issues. This is depending on addiction tendencies and body chemistry of course, if it goes south though let me tell you what to expect.
    Headaches, Nausea, sore or stiff joints, erratic heart rate, night sweats, nightmares, possibly insomnia, mood swings and the ever so wonderful trembling. This of course will be argued I'm sure and articles posted of how Nicotine isn't that addictive but lets be real here it depends on the person's reaction to it to begin with.

    "Nicotine also attaches to neurons (brain cells) that release a neurotransmitter called dopamine. Nicotine stimulates neurons to release unusually large amounts of dopamine. Dopamine stimulates the brain’s pleasure and reward circuit, a group of brain structures called the limbic system involved in appetite, learning, memory, and feelings of pleasure. Normally, pleasurable feelings come from food, comfort, and the company of people you love. But smoking cigarettes causes a flood of dopamine in the smoker’s brain. Its this flood of dopamine that gives the smoker intense feelings of pleasure.6, 7

    Normally, neurons reabsorb neurotransmitters after they’ve done their job of signaling other brain cells. But cigarette smoke causes dopamine to stay in the spaces between neurons called synapses. Researchers don’t yet know exactly what component of tobacco smoke blocks the reabsorption of dopamine into neurons.
    7 man with headache, stressed out In 40 minutes, half the effects of nicotine are gone. So smokers get the urge to light up for another dose of the drug. After repeated doses of nicotine, the brain changes. To adjust to too much dopamine, the brain cuts production of the neurotransmitter and reduces the number of some receptors. Now, the smoker needs nicotine just to create normal levels of dopamine in his or her brain. Without nicotine, the smoker feels irritable and depressed. The smoker has trained the limbic system to crave tobacco. Think about how you long for a cold drink on a hot day. Or how you want a sandwich when you are hungry. Craving for tobacco is much stronger
    < ref: HEALTH - Facts on Drugs: Nicotine >"

    You'll find out quick that they group Smoking in with Nicotine so finding the facts is hard, the real truth is that it is addictive and it is hard to quit because of how it affects your body.

    As for the vaping 0 nic, I don't agree with it. I won't use the gateway argument but why would you want to train your lungs to inhale anything other then oxygen or even offer the temptation. If I had a kid I'd keep the very, very far away from the temptation of even trying it after what I've gone through. Forget this peer pressure dooky that is in todays society because when I grew up I feared things in this order " God first then my parents" and that is missing in todays society. Respect is just a word today and means nothing to the young bucks growing up now a days, I'm sorry to say that.

    Guess you have never heard why I started smoking as a child.

    At an early age I figured out that if I swiped one of my dad's cigarettes I could make the throat ticks go away (Tourette's syndrome)
    Nicotine for the treatment of Tourette's syndrome. - PubMed - NCBI

    Simply put; nicotine stimulates the a2 & a4-adrenergic receptors which interrupts the pre tick urges.
    (which are like that feeling you get before a great big sneeze)

    So (for me), nicotine was a "wonder drug"!

    As far as nicotine dependency ........... 60 years later, the world is a safer place because I have nicotine in my system.
     
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    drunkenbatman

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    You'll find out quick that they group Smoking in with Nicotine so finding the facts is hard, the real truth is that it is addictive and it is hard to quit because of how it affects your body.

    I had to come around a little on this too, but some research -- and I know enough about science to not just adopt this based on some research -- does appear to be showing that how we take in certain drugs really does affect how they affect us.

    There's one where if it goes up your nose it can create a dependency (especially for some), but if you're smoking it it's on a whole other level and we don't know why. The idea is that nicotine is like that, and I'm definitely keeping an open mind about it as the existing work is either replicated or repudiated.
     
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    Fishtec

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    I see loads of kids vaping away on the egos in there school uniforms on my way to work conpletlly against it children vaping no nic or not can only serve to damage our community governments first go to is all the flavours we use appeal to children which is proving factual at the moment and does nothing but hurt vapers and responsible venders who don't sell to kids
     

    LeftofCenter

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    How many of us suffer one or more side effects from vaping? The VG or PG irritates our throats or we get a wet cough, a drippy/stuffy nose, etc......

    Then there is the issues with the flavorings. We know some flavorings may hold more danger to the lungs than others, but kids will most likely not research this or care. They will buy the cheapest crap they can get.

    These factors alone put me on the side of no underage vaping.

    And yes, I had my first smoke at 10 years old, was smoking regularly by 12 years old. That is messed up! I do not hold with the idea of "well we did it so how can we be against it?" theory.

    Thank goodness my son does not smoke, nor do I think he ever will. I had frank and honest discussions with him about smoking, alcohol and "other stuff" from a young age. He is a smart young man who at 22 has never even had more than 2 beers in a sitting.

    Shouldn't our kids get the benefit of our mistakes and the lessons we learned in such difficult ways?
     
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