Vanilla extract... safe to vape?

[Hermit]

I've got some super-concentrated, VG based, vanilla extract on the way to play with (from here). Of course, it could well be an atty killer, we'll see! Might only need a couple of % in the mix.

Does anyone know if there are any diecetyl, diketone or other concerns about using it? Vanillin itself is an aldehyde (ok?), but what about the other compunds that would be in an extract - could any of those be harmful when vaping?

 

[LucentShadow]

Looks to me like it's a crude extract, so it's going to have a large number of different chemicals in it.

From: Vanilla - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Vanilla essence comes in two forms. Real seedpod extract is an extremely complicated mixture of several hundred different compounds, including acetaldehyde, acetic acid, furan-2-carbaldehyde, hexanoic acid, 4-hydroxybenzaldehyde, 2-methoxy-4-(prop-2-en-1-yl)phenol, methyl 3-phenylprop-2-enoate, and 2-methylpropanoic acid. Synthetic essence, consisting basically of a solution of synthetic vanillin in ethanol, is derived from phenol and is of high purity.[23]

Nobody can say, with honesty, that it would be safe. Personally, I'd probably prefer using a more limited amount of vanillin or ethylvanillin, but both of those are airway irritants. Many flavorings, especially menthol and cinnamon, are irritants, though.

Diketones in vanilla? Maybe. I googled that, and found results that looked like it is so.

 

[Dogeggs]

I know some people make their own extractions with vanilla, so i'd think that there was nothing harmful in there...getting that stuff mixed and vape-able might be difficult though, please update this thread with your findings if you don't die

 

[michaelsil1]

You won't die and I doubt you'll be happy either.

 

[Hermit]

Thanks for the replies. I know nobody can say that anything is completely 'safe', just hoping to hear of any known risks! For irritants, would I be right in thinking that's expected to be just a minor, temporary, effect, if any?

The diketones issue is my main concern - I saw this though, which seems to say that they aren't present in the Madagascar variety:

This compound family has not been found in the leaves or stems of any of the three vanilla species studied and is markedly absent in the beans of V. madagascariensis.

... not that I understand any of the chemistry or its implications, or, tbh, what 'they' are in that study

The full flavour, rather than just vanillin, is what I'm after (at least to try). I saw the DIY Vanilla thread, which is what lead me to this (lazy) idea. Maybe I won't be happy, but if I am then I can imagine myself vaping a lot of it, in preference to unflavoured!

 

[LucentShadow]

Sounds promising for madagascar beans.

I saw that same link, and could not come up with much, elsewhere, other than that all of those 'diones' are diketones, but perhaps not considered 'true diketones'. Confusing, really. I'm not sure that I'd put all diketones in the same category as the big three for possible hazards, either, though it might be prudent.

 

[michaelsil1]

The full flavour, rather than just vanillin, is what I'm after (at least to try). I saw the DIY Vanilla thread, which is what lead me to this (lazy) idea. Maybe I won't be happy, but if I am then I can imagine myself vaping a lot of it, in preference to unflavoured!

I haven't been able to get that full flavor from any Vanilla Extract they are way too weak and burn coils very quickly!

 

[Rickb119]

Shortly after I started DIY I did some work at a local extracting company and was given a bottle (100+ml) of Bourbon Vanilla extract. They told me that this was several times stronger than what I could buy at the store. Wow! Great! Cool I thought. Now I can finally get REAL vanilla taste from my mixes. I came home and added a couple drops to a small bottle, shook it up good, put some in a clearo and vaped. What!!! Where's the vanilla taste? I must not have added enough. Long story short, I ended up adding LOT'S of vanilla and still couldn't taste it like I thought I should. And, as michaelsil1 stated, it can burn a coil in a heartbeat. I even tried letting it steep............still no go.
It is very good for cooking though.

My advise would be to try some of the vanilla flavorings from the different suppliers (FlavourArt, TFA, Capella's, etc.) You could also add some of the different creams (Irish cream, Vienna cream, etc.)

Here's a good place to get started. Electronic Cigarette, Clearomizer, USA e-Liquid, e-Cig Juice, DIY Flavors, Wholesale Nicotine, Empty Bottles for E-Liquid - ecigExpress

 

[Hermit]

I haven't been able to get that full flavor from any Vanilla Extract they are way too weak and burn coils very quickly!

Well, by 'full' I mean 'complete' rather than strong. I tried some regular extract, which of course was far too weak, but at mixed at 15% was starting to give a hint of flavour. If I can get double that flavour with just a few % then maybe... that super-concentrate says to use 1/7th the amount compared to normal, so it might just work out!

What was the strongest that you tried?

Shortly after I started DIY I did some work at a local extracting company and was given a bottle (100+ml) of Bourbon Vanilla extract. They told me that this was several times stronger than what I could buy at the store. Wow! Great! Cool I thought. Now I can finally get REAL vanilla taste from my mixes. I came home and added a couple drops to a small bottle, shook it up good, put some in a clearo and vaped. What!!! Where's the vanilla taste? I must not have added enough. Long story short, I ended up adding LOT'S of vanilla and still couldn't taste it like I thought I should. And, as michaelsil1 stated, it can burn a coil in a heartbeat. I even tried letting it steep............still no go.
It is very good for cooking though.

Not very promising then... and I'm crap at cooking

My advise would be to try some of the vanilla flavorings from the different suppliers (FlavourArt, TFA, Capella's, etc.) You could also add some of the different creams (Irish cream, Vienna cream, etc.)

Indeed, I'll probably try that as well.

 

[Hermit]

Well, I dunno, it wasn't a total disaster... at 4 or 5% it wasn't exactly flavoursome, but it was an improvement on unflavoured, quite pleasant. At 10% it started tasting kinda burnt and unpleasant. I'm not sure if it's an improvement on, say, a FlavourArts vanilla (I'll have to get some to check), but it's unlikely to be worth the atty kills!

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

If you're looking for a true vanilla bean flavor as in, from the pod, it's going to be a long, hard search .

I have a number of vanilla flavors and none of them truly replicate the flavor you'd get from a vanilla bean pod. This includes Capella's Simply Vanilla, FlavourArt's Tahity & Bourbon Vanilla's and a small sample of The Flavor Apprentice's Vanilla. They're not bad, but they're not, IMO, true vanilla flavors.

I've also tried a number of vanilla extracts. The issue with most extracts is that, at least in the US, to be a true extract, it has to contain at least 35% alcohol and the alcohol has to be of a high enough proof to prevent the vanilla from being able to rot. Vodka is often not high enough proof, so they have to go with something stronger, such as PGA, or Pure Grain Alcohol. This is fine for baking as it'll all evaporate, but at that strength, it takes time to get out of an e-liquid. You can leave the cap off, but the longer the cap is off, the more potential for the flavor to diminish due to too much evaporation.

I've found that any more than 12 hours with the cap off and I can notice a flavor drop. After 24 hours, the flavor tends to really take a dive. This is based on going through probably 2-3 gallons of PG & VG and a ton of flavoring in the past 8 months with random experiments.


That said, vanilla extracts tend to extract the base oils in the caviar (vanilla bean seeds) and the flavor of the pod. This can be done with PG & VG instead of alcohol, but it takes quite a bit more time to impart the true flavor into mix than it would with alcohol. PG works as a pretty good solvent and it will extract flavor from a number of things. VG, IMO, isn't the best, but with a 50/50 blend or a 60/40 blend, you can get a decent extraction over the course of 30-90 days. Since vanilla is a fragile flavor, cold extraction works best. Heat can kill the flavor.

 

[Frenchfry1942]

I thought about using extracts by the McCormick people. Then, I just happened to be on a vendor website and they had flavoring that was a little cheaper. The reason that I got into this was that I find the fruit flavors to be "light". I bought some flavoring and added 3% of the flavoring to the juice. I know that the flavoring and the juices flavoring are probably not the same, but it got me a stronger taste.

I guess what it shows is that I am getting closer to DIY.

 

[Hermit]

Actually, I think I'm going to have to revise my assessment upwards Before, I rushed through increasing % of the extract, and didn't try any % for very long. I've just diluted my test mix down again to about 4% and stuck a ml in a clean protank mini with a new head. It's really not bad at all - subtle, fresh, with slightly woody notes if I take a big draw.

Currently using 50-50 PG/VG with 18mg nic... more PG might bring out the flavour even more. Also, this is just on a low 6 watts - I want to try it for a while before seeing where it will burn!

There must be something like what I bought in the USA, although it wouldn't be labelled 'extract' of course. As far as the extraction goes, the VG seems to have worked pretty well. I can imagine how an alchohol-based extract would lose flavour easily with steeping, which is why I was pleased to find the VG-based extract.

Plus, the coil and I are still alive