Vaping and Healthcare... Are we nonsmokers?

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AttyPops

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You will have cotinine if using the patch or gum too. But maybe there's another tracer chem in them or something...

Cotinine is a metabolite of nicotine (and an anagram!)

Someone that knows how really should help wiki correct this poorly written article that associates cotinine exclusively with smoking:
Cotinine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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TomCatt

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Not necessarily true.

I can't say much about their product (it was my first cigalike), but Green Smart Living's web site claims that their nicotine is derived from non-tobacco sources. Wikipedia says it occurs in the nightshade family of plants.

So you could be using nicotine and not using tobacco in any sense of the word.

There is nicotine in plants other than tobacco; but at much lower levels than in tobacco. Green Smart Living may be bending the truth a bit ;).

According to the table on this page - The Nicotine Content of Common Vegetables

In order to get the amount of nicotine in 15mL of an 18mg/mL eliquid you would need:

6000 lbs of eggplant
or
11000 lbs of tomatoes
or
83000 lbs of potatoes

I highly doubt that anything other than tobacco is being extracted to get nicotine.
 

Mohamed

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They can/possibly will pee test for nicotine that is left by vaping and smoking that isn't left by patches or smoking cessation methods so make sure what it actually says before answering.

What's left over in urine/blood that is not left over in patches, gum, etc. From my understanding there was a more specific test besides the coitine (spelling?) that could detect the difference between just nicotine and smoking.
 

EvilZoe

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What's left over in urine/blood that is not left over in patches, gum, etc. From my understanding there was a more specific test besides the coitine (spelling?) that could detect the difference between just nicotine and smoking.
All I know for sure without looking for the information is that they can and WILL penalize you for saying you're not a nicotine user if that's the way it's worded on their insurance questionnaire. I think it's probably rare to find them sticking with the "smoker" terminology.

We all know that insurance companies will go to any lengths they can to get the most money from you for the least amount of risk of payout.
 

kristin

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Insurance companies can do a carbon monoxide test to specifically target smoking and won't create a false positive for non-smokers. It requires a special machine that tests the breath (similar to alcohol testers), but the machine can be bought for as little as $1,200 plus disposable tips - which is probably a lot cheaper (as a one-time purchase) than multiple employee blood and/or urine testing that has to be sent out to a lab.

My husband and I just had employer insurance (blood) tests a couple of months ago and knew they'd be looking for cotinine to indicate smoking. So we used non-nicotine versions of our favorite e-liquids for the week before the test. We both came back as non-smokers - which we are! ;)
 

Vicshalls

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for my company a smoker is considered anyone that uses any type of nicotine product except patches or gum but from what i gather you can only be on that for so long according to them. so i had to put i was a smoker and pay out the ... for my insurance. Now i get to go to my doctor and see if i can get a note stating i need my nicotine so my rate will go down.
 

EvilZoe

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Insurance companies can do a carbon monoxide test to specifically target smoking and won't create a false positive for non-smokers. It requires a special machine that tests the breath (similar to alcohol testers), but the machine can be bought for as little as $1,200 plus disposable tips - which is probably a lot cheaper (as a one-time purchase) than multiple employee blood and/or urine testing that has to be sent out to a lab.

My husband and I just had employer insurance (blood) tests a couple of months ago and knew they'd be looking for cotinine to indicate smoking. So we used non-nicotine versions of our favorite e-liquids for the week before the test. We both came back as non-smokers - which we are! ;)
See, it isn't right that we should have to fudge our tests like that.
 

spaceballsrules

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Insurance companies can do a carbon monoxide test to specifically target smoking and won't create a false positive for non-smokers. It requires a special machine that tests the breath (similar to alcohol testers), but the machine can be bought for as little as $1,200 plus disposable tips - which is probably a lot cheaper (as a one-time purchase) than multiple employee blood and/or urine testing that has to be sent out to a lab.

My husband and I just had employer insurance (blood) tests a couple of months ago and knew they'd be looking for cotinine to indicate smoking. So we used non-nicotine versions of our favorite e-liquids for the week before the test. We both came back as non-smokers - which we are! ;)

I have been trying to find information on how long it takes the body to fully metabolize and rid itself of ncotine/cotinine. I have seen estimates as low as 3 days and as high as 1 month.
I am happy to hear that you were able to pass the test with only 1 week of abstinence. :D
 

Vicshalls

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Insurance companies can do a carbon monoxide test to specifically target smoking and won't create a false positive for non-smokers. It requires a special machine that tests the breath (similar to alcohol testers), but the machine can be bought for as little as $1,200 plus disposable tips - which is probably a lot cheaper (as a one-time purchase) than multiple employee blood and/or urine testing that has to be sent out to a lab.

My husband and I just had employer insurance (blood) tests a couple of months ago and knew they'd be looking for cotinine to indicate smoking. So we used non-nicotine versions of our favorite e-liquids for the week before the test. We both came back as non-smokers - which we are! ;)

that is good information to know. i was wondering about that. when i talked to our smoking program because of other issues i have they told me to vape and see if my dr would give me a note stating i needed the nicotine. they even thought vaping was better than analogs but since my company does not agree i need that note. it helps with my adhd. My company said they could do random nicotine tests so i did sign up as a smoker.
 

kristin

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See, it isn't right that we should have to fudge our tests like that.

I don't see it as "fudging" the test. I don't smoke and that fact is made even more clear by the fact that I can use 0 mg for a week. What smoker (or any tobacco user) can do that?

(I do get your real point though - we shouldn't be punished as "smokers" when we aren't or just for using nicotine. But the same is true for smokeless tobacco users and smokers, too. Most smokers never get "smoking-related" diseases and do not increase insurance and medical costs, yet still have to pay for the "risk." And smokeless users don't have any increased risks worse than vapers. Not to mention people who use FDA-approved nicotine gums and lozenges long-term to stay smoke-free.)

I have been trying to find information on how long it takes the body to fully metabolize and rid itself of ncotine/cotinine. I have seen estimates as low as 3 days and as high as 1 month.
I am happy to hear that you were able to pass the test with only 1 week of abstinence. :D

A company that sells testing supplies gave this chart of how long after use that nicotine/cotinine can be detected per type of test:

Blood test: up to 7 days after nicotine use
Urine: 4-7 days after last nicotine use, but dependent on urine pH
Saliva: 1-2 days after last tobacco use
Hair: Depends on hair length. Most tests are standardized to limit the window of detection to 30-90 days (0.5-1.5” of hair), but they can be expanded if the length of hair is sufficient.
 
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Mohamed

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for my company a smoker is considered anyone that uses any type of nicotine product except patches or gum but from what i gather you can only be on that for so long according to them. so i had to put i was a smoker and pay out the ... for my insurance. Now i get to go to my doctor and see if i can get a note stating i need my nicotine so my rate will go down.

Can they do that now that FDA has approved of NRT, such as gum and the patch, can be used for indefinitely? It used to be they were only approved for say 3 months...hence the 3 steps of the patch.
 

Fizzpop

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Just be sure to read the non smokers questionnaire carefully.
Some say tobacco use some say nicotine use = smoker / tobacco user.

I've been shopping for health/life ins for my companies, so far 5 insurers have presented coverage & bid info.
All of them have a clause/fine print stating nicotine / cotinine testing may be used to verify status.

This. 1000 times this. The plan I have at work clearly stipulates that you can be subjected to tests to determine if you are a smoker. The method used? A mouth-swab to test for nicotine. If you fail a test they reserve the right to terminate your policy.

Now, I absolutely believe that vaping is a much healthier alternative to smoking and that I am a non-smoker. That being said, I am not about to put my coverage at risk. In a pissing match with an insurance company, you will lose and lose badly.
 

kristin

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Random testing definitely makes it a gamble. My husband's company has annual testing and no random testing for smoking, so we could prepare. But, personally, I still think I'd take my chances. (I'm not recommending this for others nor does CASAA tell people to do this - this is just my personal opinion.) Most companies don't want to pay for random nicotine testing unless they actually suspect that someone is smoking. Those lab tests get expensive. If they catch us, so be it. It could take years for them to catch us and that could add up to thousands of dollars now that Obamacare is allowing up to 50% higher rates to be charged to smokers.

The thing is, it's the employer companies who choose to charge the smokers, not the insurance companies. They can choose to not charge smokers more (or, more precisely, charge non-smokers less) and Obamacare will extend those options to charging people more for being overweight, as well. One major problem with having nearly 60% of people covered under employer-paid health insurance. Suddenly, employers have a much greater stake in what you do when you aren't even at work (and can make your life miserable for it) because they now have minimum coverage standards that will significantly increase costs.

Anyhow, employers need to be educated about the difference between the health risks of smoking and those (non-existent) health risks of smoke-free tobacco and nicotine use. The best example of that is former smokers who need to continue to use nicotine to keep from smoking. Requiring complete abstinence would only cause them to relapse to smoking and supposed higher health costs. There are plenty of smokers who will just pay to be able to keep smoking if not smoking using nicotine alternatives doesn't give them any financial benefit. (Why would they use a harmless, smoke-free alternative when they'll be charged as a smoker anyhow?)
 

TyPie

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Hair: Depends on hair length. Most tests are standardized to limit the window of detection to 30-90 days (0.5-1.5” of hair), but they can be expanded if the length of hair is sufficient.

Uhh ohhhh..........time to get my US Marine standard-issue buzz haircut. Very easy to maintain!
 
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