Vaping = smoking???

[Papa_Lazarou]

I'm curious. When smoking cessation numbers are thrown around, vaping is generally regarded as "about as effective" as other programs (e.g., patches).

What that means is that about the same percentage of people become nonsmokers using vaping as other therapies. What that then implies is that those of us who vape exclusively are... wait for it... still smokers. At least, this must be the convention as I have a hard time believing that only ~7% of us vape exclusively. Those of us who still vape are not counted in the 'successful' cohort.

I get that 'cessation' has a 'stop using nicotine' component, which many (most?) of us have not done, but we are - by implication - not considered to have stopped smoking, which comes with a whole big bag of stigmatization.

When 'they' say that vaping is "about as effective as...", they are evaluating it as a transitionary state, a means to an end - not as an end state, and giving it, frankly, a failing grade. They're also - again, by implication - saying vaping should not be considered an end state.

This seriously undermines our cause, no?

We need to change that conversation.

Perhaps I'm late to the discussion of that thought. Perhaps I'm arguing a single tree in the forest of our battle. I would, however, love to hear your thoughts.

 

[Roger_Lafayette]

The cessation figure you're citing (and which is generally thrown around by the ANTZ) comes from a study done in a NZ Med. Journal called The Lancet. As I understand it, they divided smokers who had never vaped or used any form of NRT down into groups. Then they offered one group the patch, and the other were given PVs (I believe they had no choice about what they got - this is because the authors of the study apparently believed that all "e-cigarettes" were interchangeable).

My understanding is that the authors of the study viewed complete cessation (no more use of analog cigarettes) as the "end state."

Despite that, more people using PVs stopped smoking than those who used the patch (the most effective form of NRT).

This (unrealisticly-low) "quit rate" figure is often used to argue that PVs are a "dual use" technology, and that most vapers still smoke analogs. I franky doubt that, and there was another (uncontrolled) study which indicated the opposite - viz., most vapers eventually stop smoking analogs. But the "dual use" argument is used to further the claim that vaping does no good, since reducing the consumption of analogs supposedly does no good (I can give you a link on that if you're curious).

I don't think the denizens of ECF are all that unusual in that most of us no longer smoke. But right now, our ability to demonstrate that is quite limited. All we can say for sure is that sales of NRTs and analog cigarettes are going way down, just as sales in the vaping industry are skyrocketing. Many analysts are predicting that analog smokers will be almost completely gone over the next decade, and are attributing that to the growth of vaping.

But for the forseeable future, expect the ANTZ and the mainstream media to continue preaching the gospel that vaping "hasn't been shown to be an effective smoking cessation tool." Even as more and more people switch. This will likely continue ad nauseum until a peer-reviewed study is done which gives smokers the chance to choose what they vape, or until the evidence from the real world simply becomes too overwhelming to ignore.

The irony appears greatest when you read local media stories. They'll cite the ANTZ who say that vaping isn't effective, but interview several local vapers who have quit. And then the comments sections are jammed with feedback from vapers who have also quit.

Bear in mind that there's a huge multi-billion dollar Tobacco Control industry out there, employing thousands if not tens of thousands of people. They're doing everything they can to defend their pocketbooks.

 

[edyle]

I think it's when we start seeing a big dent in the lung cancer rates, especially from 10 year+ pad smokers who switched to vaping, then they'll have to do a double think.

 

[Jman8]

As someone who chooses to dual use, and who hopes vaping eventually gets to a point where the majority of users are not ex-smokers, I must say that currently, I feel highly confident that the vast majority of vapers are ex-smokers who have legitimately quit smoking.

I would estimate it along these lines for 100% of all current vapers:

A - 5 to 10% are people who never smoked or used any tobacco product, and only vape now
B - 10 to 15% are people who did smoke, are still smoking, but also vape now
C - 75 to 85% are people who used to smoke, or used some other tobacco product, and only vape now
D - less than 1% are people who never used a tobacco product, started with vaping, and then got into smoking.

Again, just estimating. C feels about right to me, while the other ones could be slightly higher or lower. But I would say at least 70% of all current vapers are people who used to smoke and have legitimately quit smoking by vaping, and only vape now.

What would complicate all of these figures is how many of these people have gotten into vaping with intention to lower nicotine and succeeded (by going to 0 nic)? Another factor would be how many people have gotten into vaping, quit smoking and then quit vaping - and thus wouldn't be included in the current category of vapers?

 

[tommy2bad]

In the UK smoking rates have dropped below 20% for the first time in 80 years. This is being noticed by some people in public health as a consequence of the rise in ecigs. Whatever about studies and tests, the tire hits the road in the real world and most now see the possibility of an end game being achieved. Some see this as including ecigs.
Remember that the only voices against ecigs have been a handful of antiz, who's pronouncements get repeated ad nausium. This is because up to now most health professionals had only the headlines to go on, now their starting to see real people who have switched and are coming round to our side.
The tide is turning, their will awalys be the ones who insist on clinical trials as that's the only measure they accept but like digital replacing film the real test is sales of ecigs replacing traditional tobacco products.
As sales fall, and they will, resistance will fall. Tobacco control will want to move ecigs into the tiny space tobacco now occupies before it re populates the space it used to occupier. I think their biggest fear is the normalization of vaping not because of a fear of renormalization of smoking but because they feel that the 'smoke free' space they have gained is under threat from something that looks like smoke.

 

[inanitydefined]

I was sick yesterday, so I took about 3 pulls on my setup before I decided vaping was a bad idea for the day. This morning I woke up and thought to myself "i ought to go without vaping today, just for giggles". I know I'll succeed. I vape 18mg and I consider all that to be successfully quitting. Its no longer an addiction to me.

 

[Roger_Lafayette]

<snip>I would estimate it along these lines for 100% of all current vapers:<snip>

No need to estimate. If non-controlled studies are acceptable, try this: Important New Studies on E-Cigarette Safety

This survey led by Dr. Konstantinos Farsalinos, of the University Hospital in Gasthuisberg in Leuven, Belgium included 19,441 participants. 81% reported that “they had completely substituted smoking with e-cigarette use”. The rest of the participants went from smoking 20 tobacco cigarettes a day to 4 cigarettes a day. One fifth of the participants used more than 20mg/ml levels of nicotine in their e-cigarette e-liquids. This evidence supports Dr. Farsalinos’ support of electronic cigarettes as a smoking cessation device, as well as his criticism of the European Union’s overly strict nicotine regulations which he has called, “inappropriate”. [boldface added]

 

[Ohms Lawbreaker]

Funny, just a thought: No one thinks of patches or or quit-smoking-pills as a hobby. Imagine if they were.

 

[Roger_Lafayette]

Funny, just a thought: No one thinks of patches or or quit-smoking-pills as a hobby. Imagine if they were.

That's because they're designed by BP as medicine. A therapeutic nic inhaler is also crafted to meet those standards. (Actually a PV is a nic. inhaler, if the juice is > 0%.)

Frankly I'm surprised that flavored gum, mist and lozenges are permitted. Maybe they'll ban those too, soon - on the grounds of protecting minors.

Once obesity becomes an even bigger health issue (if trends continue), perhaps we may also see the same philosophy applied to food

As Paul Revere didn't say:

"The Puritans are coming ... the Puritans are coming."

 

[Papa_Lazarou]

No need to estimate. If non-controlled studies are acceptable, try this: Important New Studies on E-Cigarette Safety

This would imply a >80% success rate, then - a far cry from the NRT therapies we get lumped in with (in terms of effectiveness). This should get more air time and the notion that full-time vaping constitutes a success state should be established as a baseline measure.

 

[Roger_Lafayette]

This would imply a >80% success rate, then - a far cry from the NRT therapies we get lumped in with (in terms of effectiveness). This should get more air time and the notion that full-time vaping constitutes a success state should be established as a baseline measure.

You'll see it often cited on vaping sites. The problem is that it's a non-randomized survey (i.e. not a true "poll," and certainly not a peer-reviewed controlled study). However the results are broadly consistent w/ all the other non-peer-reviewed "anectdotal" numerical evidence - such as the precipitous and unprecedentedly-rapid decline in tobacco cig. sales, as well as NRT sales.

Unfortunately we face a media and a general public who are only gradually becoming aware of the truth. There are some fair-minded people who have looked into it, and concluded that vaping is a vastly more effective cessation tool than any therapy offered by BP.

If the number of American vapers continues to double every year (3M right now), we'll outnumber tobacco smokers by the end of 2017. If even half of us have ceased to use analogs, that will mean that 12M out of the (currently) 41-44M American smokers will have completely quit smoking cigarettes by that time. (In other words, about one in twenty American adults.) So virtually every American adult will personally know another who has made the switch.

Similar proportions will exist in the UK and Canada, and probably other countries around the world. Will their gov'ts, employers, and physicians be aware of this transition? (Many will do their best to pretend that nothing has changed, because they will view vaping as just another form of smoking.)

Will the science have caught up by then? That may not matter, either - due to the powerful economic forces involved.

It's worth repeating that billions are spent every year on the Tobacco Control Industry. The MSAs between the state A/Gs and the tobacco companies will continue to pour hundreds of millions every year into every state's coffers (not all of the money has yet been securitized by the states who have issued bonds against it). Tens of thousands of Americans will continue to earn their living in whole or in part as Tobacco Control experts, counselers, researchers, etc., and scores of Tobbacco Control Research institutes will remain active.

Hence funding for Tobacco Control studies and conferences will continue unabated, as all that money and effort is gradually re-directed towards ending vaping - which is a trend that we're already seeing - even as health costs and effects attributable to tobacco smoking begin to plummet.

At the same time, the fledgling vaping industry will also be worth many billions, and a big chunk of it will be owned by BT (which will probably make a very large proportion - if not a majority - of its profits from vaping).

Anyway the answer to your Q (to get back to the subject is that vaping is an extremely effective cessation tool, one that dwarfs the level of success acheived by a combination of decades of demonizing and socially ostracizing smokers in tandem with "helping them to quit" with the existing BP-approved medicines.

The fact that a very large proportion of ECF denizens have completely quit smoking tobacco is by no means an anomaly.

 

[Jman8]

IMO, under best case scenario for politics of vaping, there will come a point when it won't be possible for it to be only smokers that are vapers. Right now, it is clearly the majority. Probably will be for at least another 5 years and maybe as much as 50 years. I think it'll be more like 10 years. After that, for vaping to survive in terms of 'big business' it'll have to be people that have never smoked who are getting into it.

I actually look forward to that day, but I feel there are enough elements in our society, and seemingly even some vapers who rather not see that day ever arrive. And are doing everything in their power to discourage certain segments of the population who are all potential users.

Admittedly, that's getting ahead of where things are now, but I do believe of the 100% current vapers, there is a growing segment that are users who never smoked, or used any other tobacco products. Not sure if that is referenced in the study that is cited on this thread (p.1).

 

[joecil]

Well as someone in the real world I will tell you this. I was diagnosed with stage 3 lung cancer in one lung on Sept 9th ended my chemo and radiation treatments the day before thanksgiving. Now I had been a PAD smoker for almost 52 years and had tried the patch, gum, pills as well as some off the wall ways to quit smoking all of which failed. I tried e-cigs and found it worked when I used 24 mg juice. I've now gone to 0 nicotine without any problems at all and even enjoy the flavor more with out the nicotine. I haven't touched a cigarette since the first time I vapped. Now will I eventually quit vapping, I doubt it since I find it relaxes me the same as the {OTHER STUFF} did and reducing my stress is also important to living a longer time.

 

[Roger_Lafayette]

IMO, under best case scenario for politics of vaping, there will come a point when it won't be possible for it to be only smokers that are vapers. Right now, it is clearly the majority. Probably will be for at least another 5 years and maybe as much as 50 years. I think it'll be more like 10 years. After that, for vaping to survive in terms of 'big business' it'll have to be people that have never smoked who are getting into it [boldface added].

I actually look forward to that day, but I feel there are enough elements in our society, and seemingly even some vapers who rather not see that day ever arrive. And are doing everything in their power to discourage certain segments of the population who are all potential users.

Admittedly, that's getting ahead of where things are now, but I do believe of the 100% current vapers, there is a growing segment that are users who never smoked, or used any other tobacco products. Not sure if that is referenced in the study that is cited on this thread (p.1).

If there was any remotely plausible evidence that even a substantial minority of vapers had never smoked, vaping would probably be banned so quickly, and in so many places, that it would make your head spin. All based on "fears," "concerns," and "unknowns." Even that scurrilous letter from Harkin & co. to the state A/Gs about the MSA conceded that vaping had some value as THR.

Fortunately, your use of the word "majority" (boldfaced) is no less misleading than the use of the same word in the following assertion: "Clearly the majory of humans are shorter than eight feet tall." (True as stated.)

Maybe someday, vaping 0% will be accepted as a purely recreational activity that poses no risk of harm to the user or to those around them. Dream on. I'm certainly not holding my breath: there's a long history of banning anything unusual that even remotely resembles a "recreational d__g" on this planet. We're lucky that we can still drink coffee.

Once the number of (ex-)smokers falls below a certain percentage of the population, I supect vaping will be only available via prescription as a flavorless, dose-measured, extremely expensive, and utterly unappealing form of NRT. (After tobacco becomes listed a Schedule I controlled substance, of course.)