Vaping vs Smoking

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Exchaner

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Yeah, I do apologize about calling this thread Dumb earlier Exchaner, it's just that members here spent much effort sorting thru the info for the truth.

No need to apologize. Hard to have an intelligent conversation around here anyway - unless of course you subscribe to the conventional wisdom. Some of the logic I have seen on this thread belongs to fantasy-land; conspiracy theories, questionable interpretations, obvious distortions, and automatic rejection of any information that challenges the conventional wisdom around here - a forum with an agenda. About the only thing I agree with around here is the stuff about second hand smoke. It's a joke.
 
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Jman8

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Personally, and I don't think I'm alone on this, the education has to start from within. I mean that in at least 2 ways, but for sake of public discussion, I mean it as we who understand SHS to be hyped up propaganda / deceptive have a duty to educate... our own. Or put another way, how does it benefit us (in the vaping community) if there are many vapers who strongly believe SHS is deadly?

The education I speak of is being done on this thread, here and now (or recent days), but IMO it needs to persist. There are too many vapers, IMO, who either are anti-smoking type people and are fairly vocal about it, or echo anti-smoking rhetoric without backing it up with anything other than pleas to emotion and appeals to authority ("well all the top scientists say thus and so").

It's not just SHS that is the propaganda / deception. Granted first hand smoke is the tougher battle, but it is still a battle worth having. Even that is debatable, but if anyone wishes to explore why that is worth it, I'm game. I think in the long run (and possibly in the immediate term), it will greatly benefit perceptions of vaping and vaping 'rights' or at least keep anti-vaping rhetoric at bay.

I think both can be done, that society in general is educated regardless of how it is perceived within vaping community and the educating within the community. I think 'the within our own ranks education,' is more important and because onlookers might discover our discussions via internet searches, they'll get to see both sides adding to what is already a contentious debate.

I don't think it helps us to have discussion after discussion of 'smoking vs. vaping' as if one is inherently better than the other. Yet, I recognize that is unlikely to change anytime soon. But do wish to state that if that is allowed, it just makes the education I'm getting at tougher, cause smoking/SHS will probably always be seen as the worse activity, therefore (inherently) bad. All this, to me, is the appeal to emotion aspect of the debate. Nothing to back up this type of position other than, "it's not as good as vaping is."

What I think throws a slight wrench into things is the lack of debate around third hand smoke (THS). I like that we all currently recognize that as a huge stretch in logic and pretty much are ready to dismiss it as baseless assertions. I bring this up though because a) I think third hand smoke is front that we've either already won on or are winning, b) while if we did have the debate on it, it would show we aren't closed off to looking at all the purported evidence. I guess I also have issues with the idea that we say THS is essentially a myth, and yet I've seen people (in this thread) claim that smoking indoors is bad precisely because of leftover residue, aka THS.

Which just brings all things (FHS, SHS, and THS) back to the annoying factor. It might be slight annoyance, say for a never smoker, but could be monumental annoyance, even for current or ex-smoker. I currently don't know the intellectual path around the annoyance factor. Wish I did. It can undo a lot of education, but can't eliminate the idea that lies/spin are occurring, and so like all things annoying, could add some perspective. Cause in shared reality, all things (literally all things) are possibly open to the annoyance factor. Bad science is annoying and when good science makes errors, it looks like bad science, and thus science itself is open to the annoyance factor. If that is for some people annoying, then really there is nothing that can be named that isn't annoying to at least some people. But realizing that (that all things are annoying, for some) I think helps put into perspective how not so overly annoying any aspect of smoking is, regardless of who's claiming it is monumentally annoying.
 

Jman8

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No need to apologize. There is no way to have an intelligent conversation around here anyway - unless of course you subscribe to the conventional wisdom.

Is there a place on this planet where that is not true? If yes, please let me know of it. I feel I can readily adapt to 'conventional wisdom' and if desiring to go against the grain, it gets the wrath of the community to likely resort to ad hom type rhetoric. I see it in many threads here, but to think this is unique, I would say is preposterous. Find me a place where you honestly think non-conventional rationale is tolerated, and I'll be glad to visit there and report my findings. I currently do not believe it exists. Perhaps a little bit with (good) friendships, but that isn't so readily open to all members of the public.

Some of the logic I have seen on this thread reminds me of fantasy-land; conspiracy theories, questionable interpretations, obvious distortions, and automatically refuting any information that challenges the conventional wisdom around here - a forum with an agenda.

This would be going against the grain while also resorting to ad hom rhetoric, unless you can match the accusations above with posts where you've observed this and are prepared to debate it. Good luck!
 

Kent C

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Do you remember the D.A.R.E. program years ago? I think that's when they realized it was possible to use kids in a propaganda fashion. Never mind that it didn't work well to keep kids off of drugs, it sure motivated parents though.

There were some Cato Institute studies that showed that D.A.R.E. created more interest in drugs than it created fear or impediments not to try them, (as low as fourth and fifth graders, who formerly had no info or interest at all).
 

skoony

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@Kent C Although I have no scientific evidence nor handy studies backing
up my assertions I believe all these PSA's aimed at younger children concerning
smoking and vaping are doing the exact same thing. Educating and attracting
the young ones to and not away from smoking and or vaping.

I also believe from a lifetime of experience that it's also deliberate.
:2c:
Regards
Mike
 

Lessifer

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Personally, and I don't think I'm alone on this, the education has to start from within. I mean that in at least 2 ways, but for sake of public discussion, I mean it as we who understand SHS to be hyped up propaganda / deceptive have a duty to educate... our own. Or put another way, how does it benefit us (in the vaping community) if there are many vapers who strongly believe SHS is deadly?

The education I speak of is being done on this thread, here and now (or recent days), but IMO it needs to persist. There are too many vapers, IMO, who either are anti-smoking type people and are fairly vocal about it, or echo anti-smoking rhetoric without backing it up with anything other than pleas to emotion and appeals to authority ("well all the top scientists say thus and so").

It's not just SHS that is the propaganda / deception. Granted first hand smoke is the tougher battle, but it is still a battle worth having. Even that is debatable, but if anyone wishes to explore why that is worth it, I'm game. I think in the long run (and possibly in the immediate term), it will greatly benefit perceptions of vaping and vaping 'rights' or at least keep anti-vaping rhetoric at bay.

I think both can be done, that society in general is educated regardless of how it is perceived within vaping community and the educating within the community. I think 'the within our own ranks education,' is more important and because onlookers might discover our discussions via internet searches, they'll get to see both sides adding to what is already a contentious debate.

I don't think it helps us to have discussion after discussion of 'smoking vs. vaping' as if one is inherently better than the other. Yet, I recognize that is unlikely to change anytime soon. But do wish to state that if that is allowed, it just makes the education I'm getting at tougher, cause smoking/SHS will probably always be seen as the worse activity, therefore (inherently) bad. All this, to me, is the appeal to emotion aspect of the debate. Nothing to back up this type of position other than, "it's not as good as vaping is."

What I think throws a slight wrench into things is the lack of debate around third hand smoke (THS). I like that we all currently recognize that as a huge stretch in logic and pretty much are ready to dismiss it as baseless assertions. I bring this up though because a) I think third hand smoke is front that we've either already won on or are winning, b) while if we did have the debate on it, it would show we aren't closed off to looking at all the purported evidence. I guess I also have issues with the idea that we say THS is essentially a myth, and yet I've seen people (in this thread) claim that smoking indoors is bad precisely because of leftover residue, aka THS.

Which just brings all things (FHS, SHS, and THS) back to the annoying factor. It might be slight annoyance, say for a never smoker, but could be monumental annoyance, even for current or ex-smoker. I currently don't know the intellectual path around the annoyance factor. Wish I did. It can undo a lot of education, but can't eliminate the idea that lies/spin are occurring, and so like all things annoying, could add some perspective. Cause in shared reality, all things (literally all things) are possibly open to the annoyance factor. Bad science is annoying and when good science makes errors, it looks like bad science, and thus science itself is open to the annoyance factor. If that is for some people annoying, then really there is nothing that can be named that isn't annoying to at least some people. But realizing that (that all things are annoying, for some) I think helps put into perspective how not so overly annoying any aspect of smoking is, regardless of who's claiming it is monumentally annoying.
I think I know where you're coming from. You as a very moderate smoker and vaper, have a different view of smoking.

I will readily admit that I have no scientific data that I would trust enough to put forward about the effects of smoking. I do have my own personal experience. By the time I picked up vaping I was what would be considered a moderate smoker, I think. I smoked 10 or less cigarettes a day, usually actually 5-7. When I stopped smoking, I stopped having the persistent cough that I had had for at least 10 years, and I no longer coughed up phlegm balls every morning. I also feel like my breathing is better.

I have no idea what the health effects of someone smoking 1 or less cigarettes a day would be. What I do know is that most smokers/ex-smokers don't feel that they would be able to limit themselves to 1 or less a day. Perhaps that is less true with the advent of vaping, but I know most aren't willing to risk it. Smoking in moderation seems a lot harder to do than other things, like drinking in moderation, for most people.

As for SHS and THS, I have no concerns about the health factor. My wife smokes, she doesn't smoke inside the house because she doesn't want everything we own to smell like smoke. It is an annoyance factor, and it's somewhat tied to the guilt factor of how society sees smokers, but as someone who doesn't smoke anymore I can say that I don't enjoy the smell of lingering smoke. THS... well, it's not a health concern, I'm not picking things up that my wife touched and breathing through them, and the smell doesn't transfer third hand.

This would be different if my daughter had existing health concerns. I do think, though again I don't have data to back it up, that smoke can exacerbate existing conditions, if you are living with it 24/7.
 

Lessifer

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No need to apologize. Hard to have an intelligent conversation around here anyway - unless of course you subscribe to the conventional wisdom. Some of the logic I have seen on this thread belongs to fantasy-land; conspiracy theories, questionable interpretations, obvious distortions, and automatic rejection of any information that challenges the conventional wisdom around here - a forum with an agenda. About the only thing I agree with around here is the stuff about second hand smoke. It's a joke.
You know, I would take you more seriously if you would actually back up anything you say with something other than conjecture. You question my claims, I provide links. You question my interpretations, I point out exactly what causes me to come to the conclusions that I have. You have not provided anything that would actually contribute to this debate.
 

Exchaner

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You know, I would take you more seriously if you would actually back up anything you say with something other than conjecture. You question my claims, I provide links. You question my interpretations, I point out exactly what causes me to come to the conclusions that I have. You have not provided anything that would actually contribute to this debate.

There must be a misunderstanding here. I happen to think you are one of the more objective individuals on this thread. The only difference we may have is the subject article in the OP. I have yet to reject it out of hand as some have. Questions it yes, but not reject it until we know more about who is behind it, what are their qualifications/motives, where is the raw data, and whether it has been reviewed by peers and ultimately published.

If I have not responded to any of your posts, it might be because we are talking about different things - short term vs long term effects. Any material you have posted must of necessity be short term, on which you may have my agreement. We can continue this discussion in 50 years when long term effects are known. Meantime as I have said before, I tend to agree that vaping might be the safer alternative - the lesser of two evils none the less. Let's face it, none of us can claim we are better off with vaping than without.
 
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Lessifer

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There must be a misunderstanding here. I happen to think you are one of the more open minded individuals on this thread Lessifer. The only difference we may have is the subject article in the OP. I have yet to reject it out of hand as some have. Questions it yes, but not reject it until we know more about who is behind it, where is the raw data, and whether it has been reviewed by peers and ultimately published.

If I have not responded to any of your posts, it might be because we are talking about different things - short term vs long term effects. Any material you have posted must of necessity be short term, on which you may have my agreement. We can continue this discussion in 50 years when long term effects are known. Meantime as I have said before, I tend to agree that vaping might be the safer alternative - the lesser of two evils none the less.
I believe the cautionary principle is a valid view to take in one's own personal life. Applying it to public policy however, tends to backfire. When an overabundance of caution leads to pushing people away from a safer alternative and towards a known hazard, it has gone too far.

Saying "we just don't know" in the absence of any valid concern to date, is an over abundance of caution.
 

Kent C

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I believe the cautionary principle is a valid view to take in one's own personal life. Applying it to public policy however, tends to backfire. When an overabundance of caution leads to pushing people away from a safer alternative and towards a known hazard, it has gone too far.

Saying "we just don't know" in the absence of any valid concern to date, is an over abundance of caution.

It's one of the best lines for ANTZ as it establishes doubt upon which can be added other stuff - "wild west", 'for the children', diacetyl, formaldehyde, aldehydes, teen vaping, worse than cigarettes.....

And the 'we just don't know' long term, about PG and VG is totally false by all the inhalation studies on Dow workers and others in the industry. On nicotine, it's a huge 'duh'. On flavoring, we've been inhaling flavors all of our lives in one form or another and most objective studies, (that aren't trying to stop sub-ohm vaping or fear mongering on 'popcorn lung'), on flavors in aerosols haven't shown toxicity or harm. So the 'we just don't know' line, just doesn't match what we already know and have known for some aspects for decades.

And it plays into the crowd who thinks that an "open mind" is a positive attribute, where the only other choice is a 'closed mind' - not so. See:

“Open Mind” and “Closed Mind” — Ayn Rand Lexicon

"This is a very ambiguous term—as demonstrated by a man who once accused a famous politician of having “a wide open mind.” That term is an anti-concept: it is usually taken to mean an objective, unbiased approach to ideas, but it is used as a call for perpetual skepticism, for holding no firm convictions and granting plausibility to anything."
 
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dcdozer

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Let's face it, none of us can claim we are better off with vaping than without.
Disagreed. I think most of us can claim that we're better off with vaping than without. As for me, if I wasn't vaping, I'd be smoking! Probably true for most here.
 

Kent C

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Disagreed. I think most of us can claim that we're better off with vaping than without. As for me, if I wasn't vaping, I'd be smoking! Probably true for most here.

Not to mention the anti-Alzheimer's, anti-Parkinson's, pro-focus/relaxation, anti-rheumatoid arthritis and other aspects of nicotine. Even if, like others, I could go 'no-nic', (which at this point I could), I simply don't want to, because of the benefits of nicotine in the blood stream.
 
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Lessifer

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It's one of the best lines for ANTZ as it establishes doubt upon which can be added other stuff - "wild west", 'for the children', diacetyl, formaldehyde, aldehydes, teen vaping, worse than cigarettes.....

And the 'we just don't know' long term, about PG and VG is totally false by all the inhalation studies on Dow workers and others in the industry. On nicotine, it's a huge 'duh'. On flavoring, we've been inhaling flavors all of our lives in one form or another and most objective studies on flavors in aerosols haven't shown toxicity or harm. So the 'we just don't know' line, just doesn't match what we already know and have known for some aspects for decades.

And it plays into the crowd who thinks that an "open mind" is a positive attribute, where the only other choice is a 'closed mind' - not so. See:

“Open Mind” and “Closed Mind” — Ayn Rand Lexicon

"This is a very ambiguous term—as demonstrated by a man who once accused a famous politician of having “a wide open mind.” That term is an anti-concept: it is usually taken to mean an objective, unbiased approach to ideas, but it is used as a call for perpetual skepticism, for holding no firm convictions and granting plausibility to anything."
The main problem with "we just don't know" combined with "long term effects" is, we'll never know because you can't prove a negative in this case. All you can do is show a repeated absence. And of course, someone can always say "we just haven't waited long enough."
 

Kent C

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The main problem with "we just don't know" combined with "long term effects" is, we'll never know because you can't prove a negative in this case. All you can do is show a repeated absence. And of course, someone can always say "we just haven't waited long enough."

Exactly right on 'can't prove a negative' which is another reason why it's used. And yes, it is a perpetual doubt machine no matter the time frame :- ) :thumb:
 

Exchaner

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The main problem with "we just don't know" combined with "long term effects" is, we'll never know because you can't prove a negative in this case. All you can do is show a repeated absence. And of course, someone can always say "we just haven't waited long enough."

We "didn't know" the hazards of smoking until 50 years later .....
 

skoony

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I have yet to reject it out of hand as some have.
I am not aware of anyone in this thread rejecting things out of hand.I must have missed them.
We "didn't know" the hazards of smoking until 50 years later .....
The validity of the actual hazards is still very much in doubt today.
Regards
Mike
 

Exchaner

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I believe the cautionary principle is a valid view to take in one's own personal life. Applying it to public policy however, tends to backfire. When an overabundance of caution leads to pushing people away from a safer alternative and towards a known hazard, it has gone too far.

I believe people are smart enough to make their own judgement. What we shouldn't do is tell them vaping is completely safe.
 
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