Very discouraged...

[Sonso]

Okay... what a struggle! I obviously search to much!

This is a link to to the legislation in question.
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/AboutFDA/ReportsManualsForms/Reports/BudgetReports/UCM301524.pdf

It can be quite a chore to get through but after you do I think you will come away with a more informed view of what the thing is about. Or not.

 

[Bullette the Cowdog]

tanks" data-source="post: 8076780" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch">

I was always somewhat rebellious when I was young. I was always fascinated by William Cooper. I still am. He taught me never to believe a thing unless I can prove it with my own research.

If you don't know who he was; William "Bill" Cooper was a father. He was what I consider a true Patriot. He organized the largest civilian information agency in the world. Before that he was a member of U.S. Naval Intelligence. And, he was murdered by his local police department in 2001 (if you do research on his death you will see it was cold blooded murder). I'm no crazy conspiracy nut but I do know our Government has a lot to hide.

Also, I went through tough times from 16-21. It taught me a lot. Another part of what influenced my current way of thinking was probably that I don't go get drunk and party every chance I get like the average person my age. I prefer to stay in and read (favorite subject is history. Specifically, WWII era).

I won't be going off topic again. Just wanted to explain how I ended up as a not-so-average 22 year old.

Tanks
I have a big grin from reading your post.
As you are interested in history, read the OLDEST published books you can find. You will see how our country's history has been rewritten over time.

 

[Kemosabe]

You are correct that pipes they are not illegal to sell but depending on the state you live in having one in your possesion is they are considered drug paraphernalia and therefore a criminal offense.

id expect a used pipe to be illegal in any state that does not allow drug use. however, id be surprised to see an unused pipe be illegal in any state.

 

[Kropotkin]

Kropotkin... I'm curious. Do you feel that an activist view is warranted at all? I guess it is easy to jump over big business and launch ourselves at the easiest available target. I hadn't thought of it like that. Is there a worth while way to oppose this type of thing or do you feel that we would just be running ourselves into brick walls for nothing? I'm not being antagonistic in anyway. Text is tricky like that. I would be interested to know your opinion.

I don't think you sound antagonistic at all. I think you sound very sensible.

Unlike Mr. Tanks, I don't believe "government" - whatever that actually means - is either inherently good or inherently bad. I think it's essentially neutral, just like any other self-serving entity, and responds to whatever external pressure is applied to it. I think one of the main problems with our system, though, is that Americans have become increasingly passive in the last few decades, and that the corporate sector has rushed in to fill the void where an engaged citizenry used to be. I certainly don't think that whatever passes for "the free market" nowadays can correct for a lack of citizen engagement - nor do I think it was ever meant to.

So yeah: I very much support activism, in small issues and in big ones.

 

[RoseB]

Have any of you noticed how Joyetech sells mostly a three piece design? Think back on yesterday when the grandfathering subject came up. E cigarettes made in 2007 could stay. Now their products are new an improved, but hearing that yesterday helped things click. I think we will be ok as long as that stands. It is still the basic concept of a battery,atomizer,and cart. Yeah it would suck if all of the new and exciting stuff that has come out since '07 was taken off the market.

 

[MrsMustang]

id expect a used pipe to be illegal in any state that does not allow drug use. however, id be surprised to see an unused pipe be illegal in any state.

Doesnt matter if it is used or not.

[A]ll equipment, products and materials of any kind, other than methamphetamine manufacturing materials as defined in Section 10 of the Methamphetamine Control and Community Protection Act, which are intended to be used unlawfully in planting, propagating, cultivating, growing, harvesting, manufacturing, compounding, converting, producing, processing, preparing, testing, analyzing, packaging, repackaging, storing, containing, concealing, injecting, ingesting, inhaling or otherwise introducing into the human body ........ or a controlled substance in violation of the ........ Control Act, the Illinois Controlled Substances Act, or the Methamphetamine Control and Community Protection Act.

 

[jazon1]

I don't like that idea. If I don't pay taxes on my other online purchases why should ecigs be any different?

Sin taxes on ecigs is a horrible idea considering their reason for existence is to help quit tobacco ... a product already taxed to death.

The minute you let the government tax them they will begin to increase the taxes to make up for what they lose on tobacco sales.

If you want to help fight the cause ... donate time or money to a group doing the fighting.

While your idea isn't exactly a government run tax ... it could lead to issues that could result into one. The government can be stupid but when it comes to money trails they are not.

And remember ... that extra 5% can still be taxed on the vendors end.

the government taxing e-juice is inevitable in my opinion, the 5% im talking about could be listed as a "donation" to help fight for and research ecigs so we can get some more favorable results from the FDA, they are not going to side with the use of e-cigs until there desks are over flowing with charts and graphs showing indisputable facts of the benefits of e-cigs and that will never happen until there is a substantial amount of money invested, and no one company or person is going to do it if they have the option to not to.

the problem with that is should they ban the use of nicotine in our ecigs(the likely result if any)is that then we would have to fight to get that right to use nicotine back and would have to come up with the money for the research with greatly diminished sales in the ecig industry.

 

[Dana A]

I could not have said it better myself. You are a smart young man Tank. I bet you will go far.

Join a militia and buy guns. The right to keep and bear arms isn't so we can hunt. It is to give us a last line of defense/offense in case our government starts to get out of hand. We are not the property of the government, the government is our property.

I am young (22) but I realize there is something wrong with most people in my generation (as well as one generation older and one younger). They blindly accept everything the government does and says without question. They let the government slowly but surely strip away our rights until we can't even decide whether we want to smoke cigarettes or vape.

Can you imagine the influence we would have if every e-cig user would work together for the cause? I don't mean protest, I mean work together to fund real research, fight for legislation, spread our stories and proof that e-cigs help more people than every smoking cessation product combined. It makes me sick that people would give up so easily. They love something because it saved their life but once government and big tobacco decides it is hurting their wallet to much and starts to fight, people give up hope? We all need to work together and until we do that, people who think like you will be correct.

This is bigger than just vaping. This is big government forcing its beliefs onto the masses. What we think and know is irrelevant because they don't like the fact that less people are smoking cigarettes and more people are vaping. That hurts their pockets. They firmly believe we are incapable of making decisions based on the available information without their help.

This is far from over. We can win this. Maybe e-juice will be taxed, maybe they will be regulated to some extent but they can not stop me from vaping. I enjoy vaping. It got me off analogs and it makes me happy. On top of all that, this is about our rights. We can't keep letting big government trample all over us doing whatever they please whenever they please as long as the right people get paid. Murdering without consequence, robbing, raping and pillaging to their hearts desire.

I can't believe what this country has turned into. A business run by thugs and gangsters. And we are being led around and told what to do like cows being prepared for slaughter.

 

[mariahpoo]

Join a militia and buy guns. The right to keep and bear arms isn't so we can hunt. It is to give us a last line of defense/offense in case our government starts to get out of hand. We are not the property of the government, the government is our property.

Not to get off topic or anything... And don't get me wrong I think it's fine if people want to own a gun or 2 for hunting... BUT the concept of owning guns to keep our own government in check is an outdated one. The technology the government has now is far reaching. They can disable and disarm you if they wanted... all non violently... and you would never know what happened. Scary... yes it is. But guns are not going to help you in any way when it comes to the government. It's very scary and sad but true none the less.

 

[mariahpoo]

I said "join a militia and buy guns" as a joke.. I hoped people could recognize that. Apparently not.

"The government is NOT taking e-cigs away at all that I can see" You're not looking hard enough then. They are trying very hard to out right ban Personal Vaporizers. When that fails they want to ban using them indoors and have the FDA regulate the sale of e-cigs and e-juice.

"Everything else is buildable off the shelf." A bomb is build-able off the shelf. Does that mean the government can't possible make bomb building illegal?

They are trying to our right ban e-cigs. That is the truth. Though, that is a little too drastic and will more than likely not happen. They are now trying to make vaping harder for us by limiting where we can vape and make it harder to get supplies by having the FDA regulate the market.

The government isn't the same as it use to be. We are fighting corporations who donate hundreds of millions of dollars to keep politicians on their side. That's why we all need to work together on this one. We are up against horrible odds but we can come out of this un-harmed if we work as one.

Sorry I just saw this too... It is hard to tell from text.

 

[SupplyDaddy]

Knowledge is Power!
Learn to DIY, not just e-juice. Equipment also. Once you know how it all works, you can find almost everything between a hardware store and a drug store.

I think I saw something like this somewhere on here.....

Ladle
Car battery
Vape On!

 

[mariahpoo]

I didn't say they succeeded. But, if I remember correct, they had attempted a ban a while back. I'll see if I can find what I'm talking about when I get home from work.

Also, about the "join a militia and buy guns" It was a joke and at the same time it was serious. The government has been slowly taking away our rights under the guise of "national security" and, I suspect, after this recent mass shooting they will attempt to limit/revoke out right to keep and bare arms.

As I said before, this is about much more than just e-cigs to me. We need to do something to limit government. They are getting involved in things that they shouldn't be. Electronic Cigarettes is a perfect example. It is not governments job to regulate such things. I can list 10+ things off the top of my head that government is meddling in when they shouldn't be and it's our job, as U.S. citizens, to keep them inline.

I am going to say what others have been saying... and it's really the root of the problem. It's not government that is the issue. It is big business. The more money you have the more you can control people. Our government has been bought and sold many times over. I wish people would stop complaining about "big government". That doesn't mean anything. It's not the size... it's how well it works. And right now it doesn't work because they are all in the pockets of big business. More rules giving people freedoms is not bigger government. More rules controlling people is not bigger government. Those are just pieces of paper. Our government did not expand overnight, just as our heathcare industry didn't suddenly turn into a government pumpkin. Your doctors are all the same. The are still privatized.... but I digress to get a point across.

A lot of what is happening right now in several arenas including the e-cig is a power strugle between big biz and government (or the people). Our government is supposed to be working for us they are elected "PUBLIC servant officials". They should have been concerned about us this whole time. Our safety. Our rights. Our well-being. But instead they are serving big biz. It's not about getting a "hand out" It's about regulating and setting rules for the people who run and control everything. When we don't set rules for them it's not only giving them a legal right, but also setting the appearance that these thing are even OKAY to do. Such as putting poisons in out water tables and air. Or far worse in our consumables. Cigarettes are a consumable. And there are chemicals in cigarette that would NEVER be allowed in any amount in our food and beverages. How and why is this? Because big T has .... loads of money. And money is power. And as far as that is concerned I think we are pretty safe as far as e-cigs. There really isn't anything in our juice known to harm people. Yes they have not done extensive testing. But I really doubt that they will ever find anything bad unless it is put there by big T.

The only thing I am really worried about is the ability to buy and sell out products online. I understand why they would want to regulate it. It is super easy to just click yes I am over 18. Nothing is really verified. So there could be the age issue.

Other then that... I have never seen a "healthy" non-narcotic product get banned from use and consumption. So I really doubt that e-cigs will.

 

[EddardinWinter]

Not to get off topic or anything... And don't get me wrong I think it's fine if people want to own a gun or 2 for hunting... BUT the concept of owning guns to keep our own government in check is an outdated one. The technology the government has now is far reaching. They can disable and disarm you if they wanted... all non violently... and you would never know what happened. Scary... yes it is. But guns are not going to help you in any way when it comes to the government. It's very scary and sad but true none the less.

I have to really disagree with your premise. Yes, a single armed citizen is no threat to the government. 100 million well armed citizens are a much more difficult prospect to control. The issue here is for each and every citizen to defend the right to keep and bear arms and all of the freedoms in the bill of rights with absolute determination. You may not wish to have a gun. I am happy for you and your choice is your own. Every citizen that wishes to have a gun should have one. Gun ownership must not be minimized or marginalized. If ever the perception of gun ownership becomes something that defines a citizen as a "gun nut" or "paranoid deviant" or whatever, and the public turns its back on the God given right (any of them) guaranteed by the Constitution, our republic is less than it was. Moreover, the citizens must again believe that the government is our servant, not the other way around. George Washington said once, "Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." The people demonstrating strength and demanding accountability from their government is critical to the nation's health and the future of a free people.

That said, the most effective way to protect our right to vape is not with guns, it is with deeds, information and determination. I view my membership to CASAA as the best defense of my right to vape. Join, donate, attend meetings. The future of our rights is in our hands.

 

[EddardinWinter]

I believe the problem is that neither big government or big business can be trusted. The problem with big business is they could care less about you and me. The problem with big government is politicians who are motivated by their own power rather than public service. Until we limit the terms of Congress, it will never do its duty. If every congressperson were limited in the term they could serve, they would view service in Congress as a part time job and not a career.

Yes, BP has made our lives as vapers more difficult and threaten our rights. How do they do it? They have career politicians in their pockets bought and paid for. IF the politicians know going into service that they are done serving after a single term in the Senate or two terms in the House of Representatives, we remove the career hacks and begin to attract the right sort of servants. The problem is career politicians who care nothing for the public they serve. Fix the problem. Big business loses a great deal of its leverage the moment this happens.

 

[AttyPops]

...snip...
The only thing I am really worried about is the ability to buy and sell out products online. I understand why they would want to regulate it. It is super easy to just click yes I am over 18. Nothing is really verified. So there could be the age issue.
...snip...

Oh crap.......
(the issue, not your post)

Depressed sigh. Now we have another middle man to add yet another profit margin to buy locally.

 

[NancyR]

Join a militia and buy guns. The right to keep and bear arms isn't so we can hunt. It is to give us a last line of defense/offense in case our government starts to get out of hand. We are not the property of the government, the government is our property.

Actually if you ever studied the constitution of the US at college level you would know that it wasn't written for everyone, it was written for rich white men, who where the only ones at the time with any rights under the law. So most likely the the right to keep and bear arms was for them to protect the government.

I am young (22) but I realize there is something wrong with most people in my generation (as well as one generation older and one younger). They blindly accept everything the government does and says without question. They let the government slowly but surely strip away our rights until we can't even decide whether we want to smoke cigarettes or vape.

And this surprises you how? They where already trying to train independence and creativity out of children when I was in school, it is even worse now with all the meds for children who are ADHD and such.

Can you imagine the influence we would have if every e-cig user would work together for the cause? I don't mean protest, I mean work together to fund real research, fight for legislation, spread our stories and proof that e-cigs help more people than every smoking cessation product combined. It makes me sick that people would give up so easily. They love something because it saved their life but once government and big tobacco decides it is hurting their wallet to much and starts to fight, people give up hope? We all need to work together and until we do that, people who think like you will be correct.

And how do you know what all of us have or haven't done?

This is bigger than just vaping. This is big government forcing its beliefs onto the masses. What we think and know is irrelevant because they don't like the fact that less people are smoking cigarettes and more people are vaping. That hurts their pockets. They firmly believe we are incapable of making decisions based on the available information without their help.

Actually BT has gotten into e-cigs, it is BP that is the problem, and they don't want us vaping, but they don't want us smoking either. They want us laying out a ton of money on their NRT's that do not work.

This is far from over. We can win this. Maybe e-juice will be taxed, maybe they will be regulated to some extent but they can not stop me from vaping. I enjoy vaping. It got me off analogs and it makes me happy. On top of all that, this is about our rights. We can't keep letting big government trample all over us doing whatever they please whenever they please as long as the right people get paid. Murdering without consequence, robbing, raping and pillaging to their hearts desire.

Every government in history has done this to their people, even the king james version of the bible was put together to help lead the people into what he wanted. Does that make it right? No, but it is going to take more than one issue to start turning that tide.

I can't believe what this country has turned into. A business run by thugs and gangsters. And we are being led around and told what to do like cows being prepared for slaughter.

This has been going on longer than you have been alive, helmets on motorcycles, seat-belts in cars, just to name 2 that happened before you where born, tho there are thousands of examples out there.

 

[AttyPops]

I like much of your post NancyR. I'll note that seat belts and helmet laws are state level and the Fed has nothing to do with them other than requiring the auto industry to provide them so you have options. They do safety tests too. And they have done a wonderful job in saving lives because accidents happen.

Not that I'm "All hugs" to Uncle Sugar. But overall, those aren't the issues I'd pick. Same with e-cigs. So far, so good. Although it was close there for a while. Still may be. But the process has worked so far.

Just

 

[AttyPops]

And I have a lot of faith in the younger generation. I think they are a lot more aware than any previous one. I totally disagree that "there's something wrong" with them or the ones surrounding them. I think government has duped people in the past and may/will do so again in the future. Overall though, I think the truth usually comes out in our society anyway.

No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.

Winston Churchill in a speech in the House of Commons on 11 November 1947

 

[Kemosabe]

Doesnt matter if it is used or not.

[A]ll equipment, products and materials of any kind, other than methamphetamine manufacturing materials as defined in Section 10 of the Methamphetamine Control and Community Protection Act, which are intended to be used unlawfully in planting, propagating, cultivating, growing, harvesting, manufacturing, compounding, converting, producing, processing, preparing, testing, analyzing, packaging, repackaging, storing, containing, concealing, injecting, ingesting, inhaling or otherwise introducing into the human body ........ or a controlled substance in violation of the ........ Control Act, the Illinois Controlled Substances Act, or the Methamphetamine Control and Community Protection Act.

well done.
however, whos to say what you will be smoking out of the pipe if its unused? im pretty sure all pipes are sold as tobacco pipes. that is, if its even used at all and not used as a decoration, or some other form of artwork.
please do not take this as an attack. just discussing.

 

[mariahpoo]

I have to really disagree with your premise. Yes, a single armed citizen is no threat to the government. 100 million well armed citizens are a much more difficult prospect to control. The issue here is for each and every citizen to defend the right to keep and bear arms and all of the freedoms in the bill of rights with absolute determination. You may not wish to have a gun. I am happy for you and your choice is your own. Every citizen that wishes to have a gun should have one. Gun ownership must not be minimized or marginalized. If ever the perception of gun ownership becomes something that defines a citizen as a "gun nut" or "paranoid deviant" or whatever, and the public turns its back on the God given right (any of them) guaranteed by the Constitution, our republic is less than it was. Moreover, the citizens must again believe that the government is our servant, not the other way around. George Washington said once, "Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." The people demonstrating strength and demanding accountability from their government is critical to the nation's health and the future of a free people.

That said, the most effective way to protect our right to vape is not with guns, it is with deeds, information and determination. I view my membership to CASAA as the best defense of my right to vape. Join, donate, attend meetings. The future of our rights is in our hands.

I am sorry to say... but it does not matter how many people have guns. I know this is not widely known. However the fact is they have technology in sound wave form that is far reaching. They can pull a couple of tanks in or fly over with planes the emit sound wave frequency that just put you to sleep. They even effect the def. They can go it and just take your gun, chip you.... do whatever. There has not been any instances where they had to use it. But it is tested works and is very real. This is not a conspiracy theory. It's a very real technology. And if there was ever a "rising up" against the government with guns they would use it.