Vivi Nova Rebuild tutorial
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On the topic of the mysteries of very closely-wound coils seemingly not causing shorts:
Kanthal and nichrome, when exposed to oxygen, both form micro-thin shells of oxide compounds with the most heat-stable metal that they are composed of. These compounds are aluminum oxide, and chromium oxide, respectively. This oxide formation rate increases with temperature. Also, oxide compounds such as these are electrical insulators, though they are fragile and fairly easily defeated through mechanical friction.
Because of this, I think that both of these metals would be resistant to having coil turns short to each other, unless there is some significant force applied them.
While it's been a number of years since my electrical theory schooling, I agree with pretty much everything that mrelwood has said on the matter. If there is actual touching of non-oxidized metal to non-oxidized metal, the electrical current will flow through that connection. That is, quite possibly, limited by the area of that connection, since current-conducting capability is limited by that.
MISTer E, I think that you are definitely on to something with the extremely tight helix being more resistant to being compressed, as well. Mechanically, it makes sense. Couple that with the thermal expansion properties of the metals involved, and the fact that small diameter, resistant wires are not good conductors, and so dissipate excess current as heat, and you also would seem to have the 'perfect storm' of effects that would protect against that while the coil is in use. That said, I don't see that helping while merely testing on a very low amperage ohmmeter. In that case, I would think that the current would prefer the non-oxidized interior of the wire.
I believe that MISTer E also theorized about the path that the electrons take through the conductor having some effect on this. Personally, I would think not, though there definitely is a difference in the path that electrons take through a conductor, based upon the frequency of an alternating current. This is called 'skin effect'. For DC current, the electrons should flow equally throughout all of the conductive alloy, based upon what I remember of that. Either way, I would not think that it would make much difference in the ability of the electrons to short-circuit a section of the conductor due to contact.
While I don't know any exact rates for the formation of oxides, they do form any time they are exposed to oxygen, and I would think that rate is nearly instantaneous for some amount of the protection. Here are some references that I found:
http://www.sci-ed-ga.org/modules/materialscience/light/pdf/section_13.pdf
Aluminium oxide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Chromium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I'm no electronics engineer, but I was an electronics technician with a fair amount of electrical theory included in my schooling, and these are just my opinions, based upon my limited knowledge of the subject.
Kanthal and nichrome, when exposed to oxygen, both form micro-thin shells of oxide compounds with the most heat-stable metal that they are composed of. These compounds are aluminum oxide, and chromium oxide, respectively. This oxide formation rate increases with temperature. Also, oxide compounds such as these are electrical insulators, though they are fragile and fairly easily defeated through mechanical friction.
Because of this, I think that both of these metals would be resistant to having coil turns short to each other, unless there is some significant force applied them.
While it's been a number of years since my electrical theory schooling, I agree with pretty much everything that mrelwood has said on the matter. If there is actual touching of non-oxidized metal to non-oxidized metal, the electrical current will flow through that connection. That is, quite possibly, limited by the area of that connection, since current-conducting capability is limited by that.
MISTer E, I think that you are definitely on to something with the extremely tight helix being more resistant to being compressed, as well. Mechanically, it makes sense. Couple that with the thermal expansion properties of the metals involved, and the fact that small diameter, resistant wires are not good conductors, and so dissipate excess current as heat, and you also would seem to have the 'perfect storm' of effects that would protect against that while the coil is in use. That said, I don't see that helping while merely testing on a very low amperage ohmmeter. In that case, I would think that the current would prefer the non-oxidized interior of the wire.
I believe that MISTer E also theorized about the path that the electrons take through the conductor having some effect on this. Personally, I would think not, though there definitely is a difference in the path that electrons take through a conductor, based upon the frequency of an alternating current. This is called 'skin effect'. For DC current, the electrons should flow equally throughout all of the conductive alloy, based upon what I remember of that. Either way, I would not think that it would make much difference in the ability of the electrons to short-circuit a section of the conductor due to contact.
While I don't know any exact rates for the formation of oxides, they do form any time they are exposed to oxygen, and I would think that rate is nearly instantaneous for some amount of the protection. Here are some references that I found:
http://www.sci-ed-ga.org/modules/materialscience/light/pdf/section_13.pdf
Aluminium oxide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Chromium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I'm no electronics engineer, but I was an electronics technician with a fair amount of electrical theory included in my schooling, and these are just my opinions, based upon my limited knowledge of the subject.
On the topic of the mysteries of very closely-wound coils seemingly not causing shorts:
Kanthal and nichrome, when exposed to oxygen, both form micro-thin shells of oxide compounds with the most heat-stable metal that they are composed of. These compounds are aluminum oxide, and chromium oxide, respectively. This oxide formation rate increases with temperature. Also, oxide compounds such as these are electrical insulators, though they are fragile and fairly easily defeated through mechanical friction.
Because of this, I think that both of these metals would be resistant to having coil turns short to each other, unless there is some significant force applied them.
While it's been a number of years since my electrical theory schooling, I agree with pretty much everything that mrelwood has said on the matter. If there is actual touching of non-oxidized metal to non-oxidized metal, the electrical current will flow through that connection. That is, quite possibly, limited by the area of that connection, since current-conducting capability is limited by that.
MISTer E, I think that you are definitely on to something with the extremely tight helix being more resistant to being compressed, as well. Mechanically, it makes sense. Couple that with the thermal expansion properties of the metals involved, and the fact that small diameter, resistant wires are not good conductors, and so dissipate excess current as heat, and you also would seem to have the 'perfect storm' of effects that would protect against that while the coil is in use. That said, I don't see that helping while merely testing on a very low amperage ohmmeter. In that case, I would think that the current would prefer the non-oxidized interior of the wire.
I believe that MISTer E also theorized about the path that the electrons take through the conductor having some effect on this. Personally, I would think not, though there definitely is a difference in the path that electrons take through a conductor, based upon the frequency of an alternating current. This is called 'skin effect'. For DC current, the electrons should flow equally throughout all of the conductive alloy, based upon what I remember of that. Either way, I would not think that it would make much difference in the ability of the electrons to short-circuit a section of the conductor due to contact.
While I don't know any exact rates for the formation of oxides, they do form any time they are exposed to oxygen, and I would think that rate is nearly instantaneous for some amount of the protection. Here are some references that I found:
http://www.sci-ed-ga.org/modules/materialscience/light/pdf/section_13.pdf
Aluminium oxide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Chromium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I'm no electronics engineer, but I was an electronics technician with a fair amount of electrical theory included in my schooling, and these are just my opinions, based upon my limited knowledge of the subject.
Best explanation so far I think! Metal oxides created during exposure to heat and oxygen createing an electrical insulator makes a lot of sense to me. I make my own straight razors so I know how quick heat can create oxidation. Thanks for the write up.
I'm a bit surprised I'm taken so strongly as a sceptic... Although I do bow to sensefully considerate/critical thinking and receiving of information. I guess it shows more than I thought.
Well, sometimes I think most countries are. Thankfully we can and should still judge people by who they are, not by where they're from. It's not one's fault to be born in a specific country. But this "magic" thing has been pulled quite a bit out of it's proportions on this thread. Not the least by me though.
Aren't you a fascinating person! I think I'm a bit of an opposite on both matters: In real life I seem to get along with everybody and while not that out going, I am generally a liked guy. But I guess I'm a bit tired of being "the nice guy" when I get online... I do look up to individuals who make their life look like their own, perhaps even living in moderate isolation if that's their game. I think I'd go that way if my work made it possible.
Well, I'm a faceless and nameless dude from Finland who gets online to finally say what he means... Now who's the coward?! ;o)
D Marvellous! I just might have to put that on my signature, if I may?There's a marvellous saying by a known Finnish researcher about any communication between people:
"Communication usually fails, except by accident."
The rest of the "laws of communication" are nicely translated (by a true snappy-mouthed critic) here:
A commentary of Wiio's laws
But, too much talk, too little vape. Gotta go nibble my vaporizers!
)But really, good to get this thread back to the good spirit it deserves.
I forgot to mention that this recent discussion has been a fascinating read, so far.
I've recently been plagued by several sub-par coil builds causing hot spots from two turns being a bit too close together, which I'm quite sensitive to. It's almost infuriating at this point, because I hadn't had this problem since starting with these quite a while ago, and I don't know why I am now. It seems that I've been over-thinking the process, and have strayed from my original method of rebuilding too much in an attempt to make it easier.
I've got to get some lower resistance nichrome, now, and try my hand at some dense coils. I see promise in this pursuit.
I've recently been plagued by several sub-par coil builds causing hot spots from two turns being a bit too close together, which I'm quite sensitive to. It's almost infuriating at this point, because I hadn't had this problem since starting with these quite a while ago, and I don't know why I am now. It seems that I've been over-thinking the process, and have strayed from my original method of rebuilding too much in an attempt to make it easier.
I've got to get some lower resistance nichrome, now, and try my hand at some dense coils. I see promise in this pursuit.
I forgot to mention that this recent discussion has been a fascinating read, so far.
I've recently been plagued by several sub-par coil builds causing hot spots from two turns being a bit too close together, which I'm quite sensitive to. It's almost infuriating at this point, because I hadn't had this problem since starting with these quite a while ago, and I don't know why I am now. It seems that I've been over-thinking the process, and have strayed from my original method of rebuilding too much in an attempt to make it easier.
I've got to get some lower resistance nichrome, now, and try my hand at some dense coils. I see promise in this pursuit.
Glad to see another Michigander on the forum
. I've just ordered some 30 awg kanthal, 32 nichrome, 32 nr nickle to add some more to the arsenal. I've been using 33 gauge kanthal so I know what you mean about wanting something lower in ohms.
Glad to see another Michigander on the forum
I was just looking at the difference between my usual 34 awg nichrome 80, and the 32 and 30 awg sizes of the same nichrome. Seems that I can expect approximately 55% more turns for the same resistance with 32 awg, and 150-180% more turns with 30 awg (eek!)
I think I'll get them both, as I have a couple of new rebuildables with more interior room on the way, and I can also go with bigger diameter in at least one of them.
LucentShadow, Thanks for that bunch of electric knowledge!, as if like a magnate to [post=7623558]this post[/post] I made a few days back. Your added info on the heat induced oxide layer was soo much more than the little info the "heating element" wikipedia page had. I did try a bit to search but got frustrated & bookmarked the wiki page as reminder to keep looking. Now even more leads to knowledge
I am acting silly & goofy about my "Spin E" coil & its strength, but that property is really neat to mE. The DC flow into all of the material & not the skin =
I knew that info & was ignorant not to remember it in my excitement. I do imagine electrons flow in DC follows patterns of some sort & gdeals ohm change with temp difference in the bent "Spin E" coil sounds like it might affect the flow &/or density.
mrelwood I am not going to be nice. I feel you now are being condescending with me & I do not like you. Your replies toward me stink of I am better than you! & other assorted non nice BS coated to seem nice only on the surface. The words I read coming from you toward others here are often mean & you act like what comes out of your mouth does not stink like everyone else @ it often does.
My sillyness with stuff like my my lack of knowledge is silly, but your meanness is mean & sad. It made me make my last post because I felt you needed to be told sugar coated & kindly. Wrong on my part as you continue the BS. I like your science sometimes, but not the person you often are here. I am not your friend & do not like you as a human being.
I saw that j4mmin42 posted in upset with the way you called his comment into the light to make fun of him in front of all(my post toward you was intended to take the heat off you. More ignorance from me.). Your ways of meanness coated superiority attitude are likely wearing thin to many more than me & j4mmin42. I would rather be as ignorant as I am or less, than a hated mean wise heckler.)
I saw the word religion & it made me snappy. I have not ever seen any religious anything here on ECF & that is why I joined & came out of my shell a bit with my postings. I was simply shocked to see such a word aimed @ my silly way of implying maybe magic before I know the science, if it exists.
My life is my own & it does not merely look like it.
thatick
I am acting silly & goofy about my "Spin E" coil & its strength, but that property is really neat to mE. The DC flow into all of the material & not the skin =
I knew that info & was ignorant not to remember it in my excitement. I do imagine electrons flow in DC follows patterns of some sort & gdeals ohm change with temp difference in the bent "Spin E" coil sounds like it might affect the flow &/or density.my visualizations are mostly non science as electrons can not be seen flowing & I just am attempting to do so from others diagrams I have seen of current flow because its fun to imagine
You are compared to me
mrelwood I am not going to be nice. I feel you now are being condescending with me & I do not like you. Your replies toward me stink of I am better than you! & other assorted non nice BS coated to seem nice only on the surface. The words I read coming from you toward others here are often mean & you act like what comes out of your mouth does not stink like everyone else @ it often does.
My sillyness with stuff like my my lack of knowledge is silly, but your meanness is mean & sad. It made me make my last post because I felt you needed to be told sugar coated & kindly. Wrong on my part as you continue the BS. I like your science sometimes, but not the person you often are here. I am not your friend & do not like you as a human being.
I saw that j4mmin42 posted in upset with the way you called his comment into the light to make fun of him in front of all(my post toward you was intended to take the heat off you. More ignorance from me.). Your ways of meanness coated superiority attitude are likely wearing thin to many more than me & j4mmin42. I would rather be as ignorant as I am or less, than a hated mean wise heckler.)
I saw the word religion & it made me snappy. I have not ever seen any religious anything here on ECF & that is why I joined & came out of my shell a bit with my postings. I was simply shocked to see such a word aimed @ my silly way of implying maybe magic before I know the science, if it exists.
My life is my own & it does not merely look like it.
thatick
I used gimp & some tricks in my art toolkit that would take too long to explain. I am glad you like it. Your comment made me laugh.
I'm confused with all this too lol. Just wrap it and vape it lmao.
For people who don't understand the twist of the nr-r-nr, watch Scott boners vid on Odysseus it's exactly how I do my coils.
For people who don't understand the twist of the nr-r-nr, watch Scott boners vid on Odysseus it's exactly how I do my coils.
Wow, MISTer E. I really didn't see that one coming. I really don't know why I continuously fail to type in a way that would reflect my true attitude. I guess I better stop trying in order not to hurt the people here.
Sorry MR E, I really don't know what went wrong.
Sorry MR E, I really don't know what went wrong.
This threads so damn incredible, so full of good information you can fill an entire semester at vape university with it.
I'm so far behind, haven't had time to rebuild since I posted my last question (thanks to gdeal for the response btw) so I'm still not getting the best vape with my nova yet (the boges holding me over are terrrrrible - it's a shame as boges use to be great) but I know when I have time I'll be studying through this thread again and eventually rebuilding for the golden vape.
But the point of this post I just wanted to say thanks to all the contributors and people here taking the time to do these crazy science experiments and posting the results with awesome detailed pictures, all in the name of finding the most amazing vape. Thank You all
I'm so far behind, haven't had time to rebuild since I posted my last question (thanks to gdeal for the response btw) so I'm still not getting the best vape with my nova yet (the boges holding me over are terrrrrible - it's a shame as boges use to be great) but I know when I have time I'll be studying through this thread again and eventually rebuilding for the golden vape.
But the point of this post I just wanted to say thanks to all the contributors and people here taking the time to do these crazy science experiments and posting the results with awesome detailed pictures, all in the name of finding the most amazing vape. Thank You all
Very well said. "Just wrap it and vape it"
Can you provide a link to the vid mentioned above?
Oh and by the way, thank you for starting this monster thread. Your tutorial started it all for me.
I want to think you were just screwing around when you quoted me a few pages back. I know what I said was more than a little silly- so I can understand why you did.
I think the language barrier, specifically the way finnish (or swedish) translates to english, is what is at fault here. I seriously doubt you're really trying that hard to act condescending towards us. I think everyone just needs to relax a bit...
Just finished rebuilding it. Enjoying boba's bounty right now. Did not use NR wire.
Thanks for the tutorial guys.
Vape on.
Thanks for the tutorial guys.
Vape on.
I want to say the following words and get back to Vivi Nova stuff.
I am very much not right in the head (its ok with me I enjoy it mostly) & mrelwood is needed here. I am sad, because I was mean to him. Because that is what I accused him of doing to mE & others. Part of my illness is word, letter, & language processing related. mrelwoods words I concentrated too hard on negatively & he is sometime a mean teacher in my eyes, but Dan Aykroyd is mean. I do not like Dan(nor mrelwood nor anyone not even myself), but his characters saved me from years of tears. mrelwoods science is hard fact & that is needed here lots even if its done harshly.
mrelwood
I went wrong. I am & have always been a broken mentally ill runt that since birth lives in the shadows because words make me fall ill. I am an mostly feral ignorant in much hard science fool wanting to be & tring to act cool here on ECF. You are an educated tool with vastly more school in joule(that is needed here more than mE for safety!, although we are both are needed). I am a developmentally disabled 45 year old with the emotions of a child that lived feral in the woods alone like an animal for too long. Do not take it too personally & keep being you. If I am challenged in certain ways about things I do or say I become unhinged, yell, cower, hide, & then cry like a wussy. No pity wanted nor needed. It is a dis-ease I have known all my life & it has its +s that no one alive can know
I want this to be known because you all need to deal with mE & my posts.
I am very much not right in the head (its ok with me I enjoy it mostly) & mrelwood is needed here. I am sad, because I was mean to him. Because that is what I accused him of doing to mE & others. Part of my illness is word, letter, & language processing related. mrelwoods words I concentrated too hard on negatively & he is sometime a mean teacher in my eyes, but Dan Aykroyd is mean. I do not like Dan(nor mrelwood nor anyone not even myself), but his characters saved me from years of tears. mrelwoods science is hard fact & that is needed here lots even if its done harshly.
mrelwood
I went wrong. I am & have always been a broken mentally ill runt that since birth lives in the shadows because words make me fall ill. I am an mostly feral ignorant in much hard science fool wanting to be & tring to act cool here on ECF. You are an educated tool with vastly more school in joule(that is needed here more than mE for safety!, although we are both are needed). I am a developmentally disabled 45 year old with the emotions of a child that lived feral in the woods alone like an animal for too long. Do not take it too personally & keep being you. If I am challenged in certain ways about things I do or say I become unhinged, yell, cower, hide, & then cry like a wussy. No pity wanted nor needed. It is a dis-ease I have known all my life & it has its +s that no one alive can know
I want this to be known because you all need to deal with mE & my posts.
I have a few vision stone/ce2 ceramic heads on the way & ordered a short down tube ViVi Nova v1 to see if the mother of all Vivi's ego510 cup will fit under the hood a little lower in it.
Big Block Vivi Nova attempt #2 SOON...
I have been waiting for the joke horse to appear(so I could give the following). I made this long in advance to deal with & assist its humor
Big Block Vivi Nova attempt #2 SOON...
I have been waiting for the joke horse to appear(so I could give the following). I made this long in advance to deal with & assist its humor
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