WARNING Thread Of Truth

[Shining Wit]

I was going to post in the 'Law' forum but the post developed into something much more sinister and disturbing.

Here's the rub regarding health cost in purely financial terms for the UK.

Smoking related diseases/illnesses cost our National Health Service 5 billion GB Pounds a year.
Taxes earned from tobacco products stand at 17 billion GBP a year.
This means smokers contribute 12 billion GBP a year to the overall annual budget of 100 billion GBP, around 12%.
Expenditure on NHS Stop Smoking Services was almost £61 million in 2007/08.
Now the bells should be ringing, 12 billion in taxes but only 61 million
put back into helping the very people who made that contribution?!!
That is a shameful 0.5%.

However, if the NHS Stop Smoking Service is such a wonderful success than I suppose we should be grateful.
Ah, that word IF, such a fly in the ointment!

Statistics for NHS Stop Smoking Services April 2007 to March 2008

The report is copyrighted so you will have to follow the link to see it.
It's not too long but it is a damning indictment of the lip service being
paid by the NHS to smokers looking for help.
As a taxpayer and ex-smoker I am calling them on out on their figures.
In the summary for the report by the NHS:
They claim that 680,289 people set a quit date through the NHS Stop
Smoking Services, an increase of 13 per cent since 2006/07 and that
at the four week follow-up 350,800 people had successfully quit (based on
self-report), 52 per cent of those setting a quit date.

A client is counted as having successfully quit smoking at the 4 week
follow-up if he/she has not smoked at all since two weeks after the quit
date.

Whooooaaaaa there fellah!!!!! TWO WEEKS? TWO SHORT WEEKS?!!!!!
Let's have some figures for 12 months after the quit date, not 2 weeks,
well done now bugger off and let us get on with writing our glowing report!
I might only have anecdotal evidence that a huge percentage of those
'successful quitters' return to smoking within one year, but it's a damn sight
more than no evidence!!

I think it is time I wrote to both my MP and the Health Minister about this
disgraceful neglect of long term sufferers.
It is little wonder that the NHS try to pohpooh away the concept of
Electronic Cigarettes as it might just rock their boat.

Now we know where they stand we can raise the bar to our level of
acceptability and make them jump accordingly.
12% contribution to the NHS for a 0.5% return, that's the bottom line.
John



.

 

[Draco]

Amazing at how sad those facts are. Im scared to see the figures for the good ole USA, specially considering on tax's in florida yesterday went up another dollar a pack.

 

[Kent C]

Probably belongs somewhere in the campaign section here, but the gov't will define something to validate their junk scientists allies. A 'smoking related death' is considered any illness that is associated with smoking for a person that has had at least 100 cigarettes in their life*. So if a 15 year old smoked 5 packs of cigarettes and then gave them up and died at the age of 97 of a heart attack, that could and has been considered a 'smoking related death'. So don't be surprised by how they make the narrowest of definitions in some cases and the widest possible for others.

* some will say that's '100 cigs in their lifetime IF they are still smoking' and that is one part of the formula used to estimate SRDeaths. But part of the formula is "p2" former smokers who have smoked 100 cigs and no longer smoke. Other info:
http://www.cato.org/pubs/regulation/regv21n4/lies.pdf

 

[Shining Wit]

Probably belongs somewhere in the campaign section here, but the gov't will define something to validate their junk scientists allies. A 'smoking related death' is considered any illness that is associated with smoking for a person that has had at least 100 cigarettes in their life*. So if a 15 year old smoked 5 packs of cigarettes and then gave them up and died at the age of 97 of a heart attack, that could and has been considered a 'smoking related death'. So don't be surprised by how they make the narrowest of definitions in some cases and the widest possible for others.

* some will say that's '100 cigs in their lifetime IF they are still smoking' and that is one part of the formula used to estimate SRDeaths. But part of the formula is "p2" former smokers who have smoked 100 cigs and no longer smoke. Other info:
http://www.cato.org/pubs/regulation/regv21n4/lies.pdf

The claim of 5 billion GBP is not my main issue, it's the discrepancy between the 12 billion taxes going into our NHS and the 61 million allocated to Smoking Cessation, especially when spurious claims of a 52% quit rate are based on a two week period. That is an insult to us all.
John.

 

[Kent C]

The claim of 5 billion GBP is not my main issue, it's the discrepancy between the 12 billion taxes going into our NHS and the 61 million allocated to Smoking Cessation, especially when spurious claims of a 52% quit rate are based on a two week period. That is an insult to us all.
John.

Oh I understand ;-) But it's the "spurious claims" that they use to sell it. That's what I was addressing, whether it's the smoking related deaths, the quit rate or global warming - whatever they're pushing is preceded with 'spurious claims', and you're right - it's insulting.

 

[moog]

John....if I could use your letter then I will send it to my MP....I'm rubbish at writing these type of things....btw I totally agree with you...

 

[jj2]

Too weeks is nothing. It's like an alcholic saying he isn't one because he gave up drinking for two weeks.
I quit for a few months two or three times, and it never stuck. I got a couple friends who are reformed alcoholics who still smoke. They have tried to quit but haven't succeeded yet. They said it was easier to quit the booze.

 

[valeriekee6368]

A client is counted as having successfully quit smoking at the 4 week
follow-up if he/she has not smoked at all since two weeks after the quit
date.

Hope thats not hapeeninng to me

 

[oldtechno]

John is proof our government isn't the only one 'working it's own system.'

I hate speaking out against my own government--but they do need to get their act together.

 

[cruisedoc]

Does anyone know the success rate to get tobacco free using e-cigs? I suspect it's pretty high. It's the ONLY thing that has ever worked for me....like a new lease on life.

 

[pianoguy]

Governments can't afford for smokers to quit - it's easy to keep piling on new taxes on smokers, not so easy when it's the general population.

 

[umop apisdn]

Too weeks is nothing. It's like an alcholic saying he isn't one because he gave up drinking for two weeks.
I quit for a few months two or three times, and it never stuck. I got a couple friends who are reformed alcoholics who still smoke. They have tried to quit but haven't succeeded yet. They said it was easier to quit the booze.

Booze affects you negatively in a much shorter term than smoking. Nicotine is also a drug that you can be a regular, habitual, frequent, and excessive user while still being able to function well (if not better in some cases) in society. Alcohol, on the other hand, inhibits your functioning while intoxicated and for a period of time while you are not.

Also, when you quit smoking, you have to wait a while before the benefits kick in. Quitting nicotine, the benefits you gain are (for most people) not worth giving up the benefits they get and the negatives lost. Quitting regular drinking is much more beneficial compared to the benefits of drinking.

It's not hard to see why quitting drinking is easier, and then you look at support groups like AA. You don't see people on the street because they were chain smokers.

But on the topic, it's truly amazing how much money is at stake for the government from the tobacco industry. It's no surprise that e-cigs are taking so much fire from EVERY SINGLE AUTHORITY IN POWER.

 

[Kent C]

But on the topic, it's truly amazing how much money is at stake for the government from the tobacco industry. It's no surprise that e-cigs are taking so much fire from EVERY SINGLE AUTHORITY IN POWER.

You speak as though the tobacco industry would have power without the help of gov't. Take gov't and corrupt politicians out of the equation and 'big tobacco' doesn't exist. They'd just be another company trying to make a buck. Add gov't to the mix, then you really screw it up, as we'll likely see with healthcare and energy through cap and tax.

 

[SNM]

It will never end.. And I am afraid that are ecigs in the US will be banned soon enough based strictly on those numbers.. The FDA's top concern is not overall health but rather how they can keep that revnue comeing in.
In my mind there will either be a total ban or high sin taxes on the ecig in the future..

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Oh I understand ;-) But it's the "spurious claims" that they use to sell it. That's what I was addressing, whether it's the smoking related deaths, the quit rate or global warming - whatever they're pushing is preceded with 'spurious claims', and you're right - it's insulting.

You speak as though the tobacco industry would have power without the help of gov't. Take gov't and corrupt politicians out of the equation and 'big tobacco' doesn't exist. They'd just be another company trying to make a buck. Add gov't to the mix, then you really screw it up, as we'll likely see with healthcare and energy through cap and tax.

Well.....I just felt both were worth reposting....

 

[MatrixXx]

I love government. Not just there in the UK, but here in the US. Ask any US citizen how they feel about our taxes. Before you ask, make sure you have a moment to listen

 

[a2dcovert]

Good job TV.

 

[jghunter1]

Is anyone able and willing to set up a poll of how many people on this forum have quit analogs by using e-cigs? I think the question many people ask is HAVE you quit and if so for how long? Many might also be interested in what OTHER methods have you tried and failed at (like nicotine patches/gum, Chantix, Wellbutrin, etc.) I wouldn't know how to do this but maybe someone else might be interested in setting it up?

 

[oldlady]

There are several informal polls taken within this forum. I think the "quit" rate for our group is about 86 percent. Of course, I am not sure what time period it covers, but I would think at least the two weeks used by the NHS--LOL.

From what I understand, the most difficult periods are day 3, week 3, month 3 and year 3. I am not sure why those periods are so difficult.

 

[kinabaloo]

Taxes earned from tobacco products stand at 17 billion GBP a year.
This means smokers contribute 12 billion GBP a year to the overall annual budget of 100 billion GBP, around 12%.
Expenditure on NHS Stop Smoking Services was almost £61 million in 2007/08.
Now the bells should be ringing, 12 billion in taxes but only 61 million
put back into helping the very people who made that contribution?!!
That is a shameful 0.5%.
.

Good to see some numbers on this often mentioned topic. Quite frightening yes, especially when both the US and UK are having to borrow much of that expenditure - the real % contribution is even higher. And we have already seen reversals of proposals to rebalance some taxes to a more equitable position on the basis that it cannot be afforded.

edit: are these figures right though? Wouldn't income tax and corporate taxes dwarf tobacco taxes??

ps: just thought that there might be an angle to oppose any e-cig ban from the angle of competition and anti-monopoly law - ??