We Who Are Many

[closetsmokr]

As a christian, I would like to feel that this forum is respectful of all views within it, and that when we go outside of it, we are mindful that others are seeing christianity as the sum of it parts. I am clearly not a doomsayer, I don't know when a second coming might happen. I do not feel compelled to run around telling everyone what I have experienced and that they must do the same. I believe that each person must choose his or her own path in life, and I am not here to judge that person. But, as individuals, we are seen as representatives of the whole.

I came across this today while doing some research, and I wanted to share it. "In Christ, we who are many form one body, and each member belings to all the others." Romans 12:5 Also, I find this one timely, "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect."

I enjoy these positive aspects of chritianity, hope you all do too.

 

[angelique510]

Good post Closetsmokr. I constantly keep in mind that when I was a seeker, I researched many religions, but avoided Christianity. The reason being that most of the Christians I met had the attitude of "I'm good, you're bad. I'm forgiven everything, so I can do anything I want. No matter how good you are, you're still going to hell. You're evil and stupid if you aren't part of our special club." I figured that the Christian God couldn't be very good if He encouraged attitudes like that in His followers.

We have to remember that most people never actually see the Christ in this life. They can only form an opinion about Him by what Christians do and say.

Be well,
~A

 

[LisaLisa]

Great post!

 

[LisaLisa]

As christians, we are commanded to preach the good news to unbelievers. Back in the day, going from city to city was the way they did it, and when they were not well received they were told to shake the dust off their feet and leave as a testimony to that city.

These days, with the invention of the internet and chat forums, it's a little more complicated. You can witness to people, and when they don't receive you, they can keep coming back to pick at your beliefs or whatever. So, it's a different day and a different age. I'm just wondering where you draw the line these days and what would Jesus do? How would He handle it?

I've thought about these things many times, and never really get a clear cut answer as to how to handle it.

 

[HyOnLyph]

I like it.......! Good post.

There are a number of Christians who believe that through Christ, ALL are saved. Most people just don't know it. I'm not saying that is absolutely the case.... But if it is... then the Good News is even better news that we thought. And it completely changes ones' approach and often emphatic, panic-driven presentation from "... you MUST beleive or you are going to Hell" to "perhaps you'd like to know the Love of God and what Jesus did for you....He saved you."

 

[LisaLisa]

I like it.......! Good post.

There are a number of Christians who believe that through Christ, ALL are saved. Most people just don't know it. I'm not saying that is absolutely the case.... But if it is... then the Good News is even better news that we thought. And it completely changes ones' approach and often emphatic, panic-driven presentation from "... you MUST beleive or you are going to Hell" to "perhaps you'd like to know the Love of God and what Jesus did for you....He saved you."

That would be great, but I don't see where the Bible supports that viewpoint. From what I've read, it's completely the opposite. I have many unsaved people that I know and love dearly, so although I would love to believe it, I just can't.

 

[closetsmokr]

That would be great, but I don't see where the Bible supports that viewpoint. From what I've read, it's completely the opposite. I have many unsaved people that I know and love dearly, so although I would love to believe it, I just can't.

This is why we still, thousands of years later, have Bible study groups going strong. Our minds all work a little differently, and we each have our own way of looking at things. We are all reading essentially the same book (although "versions" may vary slightly), and yet, we cannot come up with "the" answers to what every word, phrase, sentence, and paragraph means. The essence, however, is agreed upon. If you wish to reach the heaven that God presents, you must follow the path laid out before you, which is to have that relationship with Him. No matter what topic one is discussing, it rarely works to start out with a statement that is offensive or belittling to others. You may have a great point in there somewhere, but you will repel those you are attempting to reach out to if you throw fire and brimstone in their faces. In the end, we will all meet whatever fate we meet, and yes, our actions and behavior here will be part of our penance regardless.

Jesus himself, as is documented, generally tried to gain followers by doing good deeds, miraculous acts, and loving gestures. We have no way of knowing, but I like to imagine that Jesus would use the internet as a positive tool, reaching out to those who use it with messages of love and kindness, while teaching through acts and compassion.

 

[LisaLisa]

This is why we still, thousands of years later, have Bible study groups going strong. Our minds all work a little differently, and we each have our own way of looking at things. We are all reading essentially the same book (although "versions" may vary slightly), and yet, we cannot come up with "the" answers to what every word, phrase, sentence, and paragraph means. The essence, however, is agreed upon. If you wish to reach the heaven that God presents, you must follow the path laid out before you, which is to have that relationship with Him. No matter what topic one is discussing, it rarely works to start out with a statement that is offensive or belittling to others. You may have a great point in there somewhere, but you will repel those you are attempting to reach out to if you throw fire and brimstone in their faces. In the end, we will all meet whatever fate we meet, and yes, our actions and behavior here will be part of our penance regardless.

Jesus himself, as is documented, generally tried to gain followers by doing good deeds, miraculous acts, and loving gestures. We have no way of knowing, but I like to imagine that Jesus would use the internet as a positive tool, reaching out to those who use it with messages of love and kindness, while teaching through acts and compassion.

Agreed! But, to love people, also means to tell them the truth when they ask. Not all roads lead to heaven. Jesus Himself said that he came with a double edged sword that would divide even people of their own households.

If an unbeliever engages in discussion, and that discussion leads to religion, I'm obligated to speak the truth as the Bible says. Anything else would be a lie and not showing love to that person by telling them the truth that can lead to their own salvation. Yes, this will offend many, can't help that as the Word speaks the truth. Jesus didn't mince words about that either.

 

[closetsmokr]

Agreed! But, to love people, also means to tell them the truth when they ask. Not all roads lead to heaven. Jesus Himself said that he came with a double edged sword that would divide even people of their own households.

If an unbeliever engages in discussion, and that discussion leads to religion, I'm obligated to speak the truth as the Bible says. Anything else would be a lie and not showing love to that person by telling them the truth that can lead to their own salvation. Yes, this will offend many, can't help that as the Word speaks the truth. Jesus didn't mince words about that either.

The only advice I could offer to anyone about making a point, whether it's about God, the Bible, or any topic really, is that it isn't as much what you say as how you say it. One must also be willing to back away (turn the other cheek) when it is clear that the battle is lost. And, perhaps, most importantly, one must be able concede when a point is lost. That is what will earn respect and trust with anyone, even if they don't agree with you or what you are representing.

 

[LisaLisa]

One must also be willing to back away (turn the other cheek) when it is clear that the battle is lost..

I can go along with that!

 

[lmrasch]

"Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect."

I agree 1000% here Closetsmokr, this scripture speaks to me so much while witnessing to non believers....we can preach all the live long day, but our attitudes and examples of Christ living in us is really what they see (fruit)....words are words, unless we live by them ourselves it doesn't matter.

1 Peter 3:13-18
Who is going to harm you if you are eager to do good? But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. “Do not fear their threats; do not be frightened.” But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. For it is better, if it is God’s will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God.

Jesus was good to those who persecuted him and harsh on the religious leaders....things that make you go hmmmm.

 

[HyOnLyph]

That would be great, but I don't see where the Bible supports that viewpoint. From what I've read, it's completely the opposite. I have many unsaved people that I know and love dearly, so although I would love to believe it, I just can't.

Actually, those that believe it, think it is supported strongly by scripture. I'm not an expert at the theological point of view and not prepared to get into a detailed theological discussion about it... but for one is the reference to the Lake of Fire for "all eternity". The scriptures actually say... "age abiding".... and it is said that biblically an "age" is a specific block of time that comes to an end and ushers in the next age. Add to that, the understanding that in the OT and among orthodox Jews, eternal punishment was never a consideration. I've heard the theological arguments for and against it... And to be honest... it is, at the very least, intruiguing.

Very important is what we see in Romans 5.
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— .......
15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.
17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Note that.. the reference to the ones who were made sinners by one (Adam) and condemned is exactly the same as those who are saved by the ONE. All really might mean all.

The concept is supported by the understanding that belief is required. The only difference is when one can believe. In that point of view, it is possible that the Lake of Fire, (fire being used for purification throughout scripture) is a process with an end and at the end, is belief in Christ.

I realize this unravels a lot of theology of some people. However, it doesn't detract from Christ's sacrifice at all. It threatens noone. The only thing challenged by this train of thought, is religion and a theological position. For others, it is a possibility that is extremely good news. It is very easy to track through scripture and explain just as easily as those who hold fast to "eternal damnation".

I'm sorry that I have gone off topic here. I really like what the OP said.

 

[Southern Gent]

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
A. Adam represented the human race to demonstrate how good we would be at perfect law keeping. He failed.
B. Paul has illustrated in the first three chapters of Romans that all are sinners because we have violated the law of God.
C. We are no better at law keeping than Adam and Eve were.
D. Romans 3:23 – For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.
E. We do not inherit Adam’s sin or sinful nature.
F. Total hereditary depravity:
Calvinism: “The depraved sinner cannot act except by enabling grace of God through the Spirit.”
Calvinism: “. . . Positively inclined to evil; and therefore under just condemnation to eternal ruin, without defense or excuse.”

QUESTIONS TO CONSIDER
1. Do you believe in the immaculate conception?
2. Was Jesus a sinner? Hebrews 4:15 – For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
3. Was Jesus one who inherited sin?
4. Was Jesus tempted in all points like as we are? Hebrews 4:15.
5. Were Adam and Eve persons who inherited sin?
6. What happens to little babies who die if they have inherited sin?
7. Is there a way the little babies can get rid of such sins?
8. Can one die in sin and expect to go to heaven?
9. Were Adam and Eve tempted in the same fashion as we?
10. Were Cain and Abel tempted in the same fashion as their parents?
11. Is Adam’s sin and its consequences far more reaching than Christ’s sacrifice and its blessings?
12. Will inherited sin condemn a person?
13. What is sin? 1 John 3:4; James 4:17.
14. Did Mary, the mother of Jesus, inherit sin?
15. What does Ezekiel 18:20 mean? Ezekiel 18:20 – The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the
wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
16. Is God more fair in physical or spiritual matters?
17. Who was the first totally depraved person?
18. How does God change the totally depraved person?
19. Can a totally depraved person understand the Bible? Ephesians 3:1-5; 1 Corinthians 3:1-3.
20. Can a totally depraved person learn how to do brain surgery?
21. How did you learn you were totally depraved?
22. Could you teach a totally depraved person he is totally depraved and get him to understand it?
23. If not #22, how can he be held accountable?
24. If yes to #22, could he not understand the word of God, if the word of God teaches total hereditary depravity?
25. Would you read the Bible to a totally depraved person?
26. How would you go about trying to get a baby forgiven of total hereditary depravity?
27. Did John the Baptist inherit sin?
28. Did John the Baptist receive the Holy Spirit in his mother’s womb?
29. What is the difference between lying with the so-called “depraved nature” and lying without that nature?
30. Will I be held accountable for what my mother did?

G. Ezekiel 18:20-22 – The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

H. “Death” in this verse is spiritual death.
I. The law Adam introduced was that if one did not keep law perfectly then one died spiritually. Genesis 2:17 – But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
J. That same spiritual death has passed upon all responsible men because all have sinned.
K. Sin is a violation of God’s law. 1 John 3:4 – Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
1. Again, we state Adam introduced the law of sin and death.
2. We are being told in this verse that the one act by Christ has far more benefits than Adam’s sin had consequences. This verse proves that the work of Christ was able to overcome all sin.
3. God’s grace will cover any sin no matter how big one may think it is.
4. Romans 5:20 – Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
5. The gift by grace is called such because men were doomed and did not desire it.
6. Some have misunderstood this verse to teach that salvation is unconditional.
7. However, John 3:16 proves such to be false: John 3:16 – For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
8. To start with, all gifts are conditional. If I should offer to give you a million dollars, you would have to receive it, or it would not benefit you at all.
9. “Redemption is unlimited. Salvation is offered to all upon identical terms (Mt. 11:28-30; Mk. 16:15-16; Rv. 22:17). The many who died in Adam can now be made alive in Christ. The two vital words here are offense and gift. The offense came through Adam; the free gift through Christ. But neither the offense nor the free gift is applied to one apart from his own actions and involvement. One dies (is lost) only when he violates the will of God; he is saved only when he accepts and appropriates (through obedience to the divine will) the free gift. We no more suffer the penalty of Adam's sin unconditionally than we receive the benefits of the gift unconditionally. Both are predicated upon our volitional response.