Just 'cause it says we're closed doesn't mean we're really closed.
It's like when you're told, "... there is a God, the bible proves it."
It's like when you're told, "... there is a God, the bible proves it."
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As the old foks used to say in Scotland - "God loves a trier!"
Right enough my first wife said he must love me as I was very trying!
Right enough my first wife said he must love me as I was very trying!
Just noticed the section heading on this one.
I’m Making a fundamentally theistic statement here, so I guess consider it informational. The statement I am making here is a standard stance of many non-literalists, though not all theists. Take it as a statement of “this is what some people believe” rather than an exhortation that you should or should not personally believe this thing. I guess this makes me something of a Christian apologist. Be that as it may:
It is a standard point of Christianity that the Bible very specifically does not prove the existence of god. It proves the existence of faith. With proof there would be no faith. Every single “proof” of the existence of god has turned out to be false, and IMHO this will always turn out to be the case, but not because god does not exist. One of the main messages of monotheism, not merely Christianity in general, is that god is interested in the faith of man. Offering proof is therefore by definition a cop out. Don’t follow god because there are cookies at the end. Follow god because it is a good idea. If god wanted that from mankind we’d all be cats.
The pope recently made a statement that it is not impossible for atheists to go to heaven, but merely that it tended to be a lot more difficult. There are many atheists today who follow the basic tenants of Christianity not because of belief in god but because they consider the tenants of behavior within the faith to simply be a good idea.
By this logic To a degree, theism is an attempt to grotesquely simplify complicated philosophical questions.
There is an example given in a webcomic called Saturday-morning-breakfast-cereal, which considers itself to be an atheist comic, that I consider to be excellent. It presents the classic prisoner’s dilemma problem where two prisoners are separated and encouraged to rat the other out. If both prisoners are silent both will go free. If one rats out the other that one will go free, but of both rat out each other neither will go free.
Atheism makes a somewhat complicated point about why (B) is the superior choice, while theism simply makes the statement “(A) is made of fire”
They both come to he same conclusion though.
A lot of atheists point to the fact that theism often does not agree on such points with philosophy. As a theist I would point out that often when this happens it is evidence of a misuse of either philosophy or theology. Both theology and philosophy can be misused. Points where they do not agree seem to me to be evidence where one or the other are being mistreated. Bad religion exists, just as bad philosophy exists. It does not however necessarily follow that all religion or philosophy is therefore bad.
I’m Making a fundamentally theistic statement here, so I guess consider it informational. The statement I am making here is a standard stance of many non-literalists, though not all theists. Take it as a statement of “this is what some people believe” rather than an exhortation that you should or should not personally believe this thing. I guess this makes me something of a Christian apologist. Be that as it may:
It is a standard point of Christianity that the Bible very specifically does not prove the existence of god. It proves the existence of faith. With proof there would be no faith. Every single “proof” of the existence of god has turned out to be false, and IMHO this will always turn out to be the case, but not because god does not exist. One of the main messages of monotheism, not merely Christianity in general, is that god is interested in the faith of man. Offering proof is therefore by definition a cop out. Don’t follow god because there are cookies at the end. Follow god because it is a good idea. If god wanted that from mankind we’d all be cats.
The pope recently made a statement that it is not impossible for atheists to go to heaven, but merely that it tended to be a lot more difficult. There are many atheists today who follow the basic tenants of Christianity not because of belief in god but because they consider the tenants of behavior within the faith to simply be a good idea.
By this logic To a degree, theism is an attempt to grotesquely simplify complicated philosophical questions.
There is an example given in a webcomic called Saturday-morning-breakfast-cereal, which considers itself to be an atheist comic, that I consider to be excellent. It presents the classic prisoner’s dilemma problem where two prisoners are separated and encouraged to rat the other out. If both prisoners are silent both will go free. If one rats out the other that one will go free, but of both rat out each other neither will go free.
Atheism makes a somewhat complicated point about why (B) is the superior choice, while theism simply makes the statement “(A) is made of fire”
They both come to he same conclusion though.
A lot of atheists point to the fact that theism often does not agree on such points with philosophy. As a theist I would point out that often when this happens it is evidence of a misuse of either philosophy or theology. Both theology and philosophy can be misused. Points where they do not agree seem to me to be evidence where one or the other are being mistreated. Bad religion exists, just as bad philosophy exists. It does not however necessarily follow that all religion or philosophy is therefore bad.
Personally, and it is of course a personal opion, me having started off with the word "personally," I don't really see why we need either a Christian Vapers nor an Atheist Vapers section ... after all we all just People ( or Persons, indeed, if you prefer) and Vapers at the end of the proverbial day... for indeed did not Rabbie Burns or someone similar not declare "we are a' Jock Tamson's bairns" ( "We are all one family") even probably after a long stint in some Den of Inequiety (sic) quaffing alcofrolic beverages.
Me, by and large I'm in favour of things which bring people ( with the exception of Trolls) together rather than set them apart.
On a lighter note a propos of absolutely nothing other than perhaps to clarify my comment about Oor Rabbie and the Demon Drink, Burns at one stage in his life was a "Gauger" ( Customs and Excise offical covering a stretch of coastline and it's adjoining countryside tasked with preventing smuggling and ensuring that the correct revenue was paid on dutiable goods - often called a "Riding Officer" in England ) hence his song "The De'ils awa' wi' the Exciseman" ( the Devil has made off with the Riding Officer ).
Part of his duties also involved checking weights and measure including the strength of ales sold in licensed premises ( and some of his favourite haunts were indeed on the licencious side ) - testing such involved purchasing a measure of ale pouring, it onto a wooden stool and then sitting on it wearing his official leather trousers. If he stuck to the stool the ale had not been watered and therefore the landlord was not swindling his customers.
Anyway - have a good day all!
Me, by and large I'm in favour of things which bring people ( with the exception of Trolls) together rather than set them apart.
On a lighter note a propos of absolutely nothing other than perhaps to clarify my comment about Oor Rabbie and the Demon Drink, Burns at one stage in his life was a "Gauger" ( Customs and Excise offical covering a stretch of coastline and it's adjoining countryside tasked with preventing smuggling and ensuring that the correct revenue was paid on dutiable goods - often called a "Riding Officer" in England ) hence his song "The De'ils awa' wi' the Exciseman" ( the Devil has made off with the Riding Officer ).
Part of his duties also involved checking weights and measure including the strength of ales sold in licensed premises ( and some of his favourite haunts were indeed on the licencious side ) - testing such involved purchasing a measure of ale pouring, it onto a wooden stool and then sitting on it wearing his official leather trousers. If he stuck to the stool the ale had not been watered and therefore the landlord was not swindling his customers.
Anyway - have a good day all!
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*gasp*
Is this common sense I'm reading? Why try an divide a forum for like minded people with so many different subforums? A decently moderated lounge is plenty for off topic banter.
We don't necessarily need a niche for every aspect of vaping. I think most of us are here to learn, not debate politics or religion, IMO.
I personally find the evangelical literalist trolls to be crunchy and good with ketchup, but I take your point.
militant atheists have simply accepted atheism as their new religion.
real atheists simply have no need to talk about it.
we have no desire to convert people.
real atheists simply have no need to talk about it.
we have no desire to convert people.
"We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further." Richard Dawkins
In memory of Christopher Hitchens...
In memory of Christopher Hitchens...
Looking back and around, I can't - on a purely intellectual level - understand how anyone can subscribe to any particular (supernatural) religion.
The one thing I would demand of any god, or idea of a god, is that it is self-revealing, self-explanatory, conclusive, and without any contradiction; growing from the very ground up, with no additional mental helpers or (human) (pre)conceptions. Like an axiomatic truth of the highest order. Until I come across something like that, religion doesn't impress me at all :ß
The one thing I would demand of any god, or idea of a god, is that it is self-revealing, self-explanatory, conclusive, and without any contradiction; growing from the very ground up, with no additional mental helpers or (human) (pre)conceptions. Like an axiomatic truth of the highest order. Until I come across something like that, religion doesn't impress me at all :ß
Speak for yourself. Whenever religionists push their aggressive nonsense into the public realm, and in consequence on other people, a call to order is due.
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