FDA What happens if/when…

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DC2

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But when I look at How Many people submitted comments to the FDA...
It seems that I am the only one who noticed or talks about the brilliance of how the proposed deeming regulations were written.
If I was the FDA my goal would have been to write the deeming regulations EXACTLY how they are currently written.

Those that aren't advocates and steeped in what is really going on will think it looks pretty hunky dory.
And it will keep them from getting outraged and speaking up.
 

DC2

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Well, that's the thing, the tyranny has to be overt for most Americans to even believe in it, we've all been so thoroughly schooled on America The Beautiful, the freedom and justice for all party line. Until it's truly overt, most Americans think any talk of "tyranny" is originating from the tin-foil-hat brigade, and will go back to their highball and cheezpuffs and reality TV. :facepalm:
Or in other words, what she said.
 

zoiDman

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1. Realization that FDA proposed deeming regulations won't be as harsh as the doomers and gloomers are predicting (via language that states 99% of all ecig products will be eliminated). This can also be coupled with (1a) realization that FDA current proposed regulations will not be implemented for at least another year, and possibly as much as 5 years.

This is Hope. But it is False Hope. Because the FDA isn’t going to Wait 5 Years to do something with e-liquids. Flavored e-liquids will be Restricted. Hardware may be a Long, Drawn out Process. But Not e-Liquids.

People should be getting Active NOW with regards to e-Liquids.

---

2. That we have political momentum, and that it is fairly steady and/or growing. That we have a whole bunch of people that will not 'sit back and do nothing' and are motivated not by doom and gloom, but by a whole bunch of factors, not the least of which is "eCigs saved my life."


Perhaps you can Site some Details as to this Political Momentum your speak of? All I see is More and More Restrictions. People Need to be Writing their Representatives and Voicing their Opinions. And Not sitting back Doing Nothing because they Think it will be 5 Years before Anything Happens. Or that “Someone” else will do all the Work for them.

---


3. That a black market would come into existence, very quickly to fill in gaps where ANTZ type regulations decided that going overboard was perhaps good policy.

Jeeze Jman. Sounds like Wax On/Wax Off to me.

I'm not saying, haven't said, black market will take care of all possible vaping needs.

---


4. That technological advancements will likely carry the industry for a long time to come. In 3 years I've been vaping, the advancements have been noticeable and the market has changed dramatically. Also makes policy makers have to play lots of catch up.

Yeah, Technology is Great. And something that Prospers in an Unregulated Market. But the Sad Truth is if you want to Sell/Market something as an e-Cigarette in the Coming FDA Regulated Market, you are Going to need FDA Approval. And that is Going to be Very Expensive.

There is One New Product that is employing some Very Interesting Technology. It is a Closed System that comes with Pre-Filled, Chip Enabled Cartos that Disable themselves when a certain amount of “Puffs” have been reached. And it uses a Proprietary Connector so it Can’t be used on a 510 Battery/Mod.

If for No Other reason, People should be Joining a group like CASAA or SFATA to combat this type of Potential Hardware Requirements. Requiring that e-Cigarettes be “Closed System” is the Single Greatest threat to the e-Cigarette Hardware Market.

---

5. That science appears to be on our side, or not favoring ANTZ take on 'harms of eCigs.'

When has Science Ever Trumped Profits, Potential Taxes or Appeased the “Save the Children” Appeasers? We Need Science to Stave Off Some forms of Regulations. And help Sway Undecided Non-Vaper's. But Science Alone will Not be the Deciding Factor here.

---

6. That today, and up to this moment, you are living in the Golden Era of vaping. Enjoy it.

Finally. Something I can Agree on.

---

Everything you Listed, with the Possible Exception of the Last Item, seems to Instill a Believe that there is No Need to Do anything. That things are Under Control.

I do Not Subscribe to this in the Least. I will refrain from saying that it is Head in the Sand thinking.

I believe that People should be Writing their Representatives Now. That They Should Join/Contribute to an Advocacy Group. Not when the FDA hands its Final Rules to Congress. Or Not 3 Months from Today. People should Join/Contribute to an Advocacy Group(s) Today.

And that Every Person on the ECF should Try to Encourage other Vapers and Non-Vapers to get More Informed about what is Going On.
 

zoiDman

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It seems that I am the only one who noticed or talks about the brilliance of how the proposed deeming regulations were written.
If I was the FDA my goal would have been to write the deeming regulations EXACTLY how they are currently written.

Those that aren't advocates and steeped in what is really going on will think it looks pretty hunky dory.
And it will keep them from getting outraged and speaking up.

The Beauty and the True Brilliance of the Deeming Regulations was Not what was Written. It was what Was Not Written.

How much was Written the about e-Liquids?

I thought it was Great. Go On and On about Hardware (which they Know they will have a Very Difficult Time Regulating if they are Not Sold/Marketed as to be used with a Tobacco Product) but say Very Little about e-Liquids.

Which is Really the Core of e-Cigarette Regulations.
 

DC2

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Flavored e-Liquids will be Restricted. Hardware may be a Long, Drawn out Process. But Not e-Liquids.

People should be getting Active NOW with regards to e-Liquids.
This is the crux of the entire issue.

Free-roaming e-liquids is the choke point.
Eliminating that will destroy most of what we know and love.

Brick and mortars will disappear.
People will only be able to order advanced equipment online from overseas.

Eventually, the influx of new vapers will slow to a crawl.
And individuals won't be investing nearly as much time and energy to advance the quality of vaping.

This should be easy to see.
 
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zoiDman

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This is the crux of the entire issue.

Free-roaming e-liquids is the choke point.
Eliminating that will destroy most of what we know and love.

Brick and mortars will disappear.
People will only be able to order advanced equipment online from overseas.

Eventually, the influx of new vapers will slow to a crawl.
And individuals won't be investing nearly as much time and energy to advance the quality of vaping.

This should be easy to see.

You would think it would be, wouldn't you?

It would be How I would Regulate/Restrict the e-Cigarette Market if I was Doing It.

But I still Read Posts from Many People saying that they Think Nothing Will Happen. And once you leave the Confines of the ECF, I find Most People to be Completely Clueless about things.

Ask the Average Vaper on the Street what our Current Surgeon General thinks about e-Cigarettes. You will get some Very Interesting Replies.
 

Kent C

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This is the crux of the entire issue.

Free-roaming e-liquids is the choke point.
Eliminating that will destroy most of what we know and love.


Brick and mortars will disappear.
People will only be able to order advanced equipment online from overseas.

Eventually, the influx of new vapers will slow to a crawl.
And individuals won't be investing nearly as much time and energy to advance the quality of vaping.

This should be easy to see.

I'll just point out that this speaks to the other issue on another thread.
 

AndriaD

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AndriaD said:
PS: historical tidbit: all this trouble with New York? New York was a virtual hotbed of Tory pro-Brit sentiment throughout the lead-up to the Revolution, and even during it. So they've pretty much always been "anti-American" in their politics. It's no wonder they seem so weird to the rest of us now.

That's right. At that time the tri-cornered hat was considered by the same types, as a tin foil hat. And while there's been some 'transitions' along the way, the Federalists and Tories are more representative of the big gov't types of today. Just the opposite of what some would think.

It's even stranger to consider that this formerly-Tory hotbed has apparently turned into Puritan Central! No big sodas, no sugar, no smoking, because someone might enjoy those too much! :D

:facepalm:
Andria
 

Kent C

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It's even stranger to consider that this formerly-Tory hotbed has apparently turned into Puritan Central! No big sodas, no sugar, no smoking, because someone might enjoy those too much! :D

:facepalm:
Andria

While that 'we know what's best for you' attitude resides mainly in one major party it has infiltrated some factions in others ... except for one... for now :)
 

Krashman Von Stinkputin

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The Beauty and the True Brilliance of the Deeming Regulations was Not what was Written. It was what Was Not Written.

How much was Written the about e-Liquids?

I thought it was Great. Go On and On about Hardware (which they Know they will have a Very Difficult Time Regulating if they are Not Sold/Marketed as to be used with a Tobacco Product) but say Very Little about e-Liquids.


Which is Really the Core of e-Cigarette Regulations.

Also notice the FDA starting point for their perspective in the deeming regs::
1) All smoking--analog or electronic---is undesirable
2) Nicotine is bad for kids (and the rest of you people)
3) Flavors are bad cause they attract kids
4) You should all just quit
5) A proper ecig looks like a cigarette.
6) You think an ecig can look different than a cigarette
7) It doesn't really matter what an ecig is because Congress told us to regulate them and we're really good at regulating things, we've been doing that for years and we're excited about applying all our existing methods
7) Legally we are required to tell you that you are allowed to write comments or other captivating tales on our website.
 
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Katya

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Well, that's the thing, the tyranny has to be overt for most Americans to even believe in it, we've all been so thoroughly schooled on America The Beautiful, the freedom and justice for all party line. Until it's truly overt, most Americans think any talk of "tyranny" is originating from the tin-foil-hat brigade, and will go back to their highball and cheezpuffs and reality TV. :facepalm:

:)

"A network of small, complicated rules. It does not break wills, but softens them. It does not tyrannize, it hinders, represses, stupefies, and finally it reduces each nation to being nothing more than a flock of timid animals, of which the government is the shepherd."

Alexis De Tocqueville - "Democracy In America", 1840
 

Jman8

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This is Hope. But it is False Hope. Because the FDA isn’t going to Wait 5 Years to do something with e-Liquids. Flavored e-Liquids will be Restricted. Hardware may be a Long, Drawn out Process. But Not e-Liquids.

People should be getting Active NOW with regards to e-Liquids.

Not disagreeing with last point as states could (and NYC is) doing something with regards to eLiquids. But if FDA moves in this direction, it would be so very hard to enforce if it is less than 5 years, and I would argue around 5 years, likely more, for them to implement a definitive policy that greatly restricts eLiquid. So, this to me is agree to disagree and I currently see your 'false hope' and raise you a 'doom and gloom' spin based on your, rather vague, take on things.

Perhaps you can Site some Details as to this Political Momentum your speak of? All I see is More and More Restrictions. People Need to be Writing their Representatives and Voicing their Opinions. And Not sitting back Doing Nothing because they Think it will be 5 Years before Anything Happens. Or that “Someone” else will do all the Work for them.

For the most part, you are making my point. I precisely said that "we have a whole bunch of people that will not 'sit back and do nothing'" and then you go on to advocate for this. So, either you are stuck in the doom and gloom mode of thought, plus are making point that we have done zero good up til now, or you are making some other point and thinking I did not address this already, which is why I was compelled to quote my own self.

Jeeze Jman. Sounds like Wax On/Wax Off to me.

IOW, you have no sound rebuttal to this point.

Yeah, Technology is Great. And something that Prospers in an Unregulated Market. But the Sad Truth is if you want to Sell/Market something as an e-Cigarette in the Coming FDA Regulated Market, you are Going to need FDA Approval. And that is Going to be Very Expensive.

There is One New Product that is employing some Very Interesting Technology. It is a Closed System that comes with Pre-Filled, Chip Enabled Cartos that Disable themselves when a certain amount of “Puffs” have been reached. And it uses a Proprietary Connector so it Can’t be used on a 510 Battery/Mod.

If for No Other reason, People should be Joining a group like CASAA or SFATA to combat this type of Potential Hardware Requirements. Requiring that e-Cigarettes be “Closed System” is the Single Greatest threat to the e-Cigarette Hardware Market.

First paragraph is doom and gloom, offering very little to no hope, in a current market where there is plenty of visible hope. Tell me, based on what you have written here, how will joining CASAA or SFATA have any benefit of advancing technology if all technological advancements for vaping, includes those made abroad, will need FDA approval, and be very expensive?

Again, you preach the doom and gloom and then have the gall to say "join CASAA" or "write your representative" as if, hey, magically that will overcome the insurmountable odds that are being painted for 'what's to come.'

When has Science Ever Trumped Profits, Potential Taxes or Appeased the “Save the Children” Appeasers? We Need Science to Stave Off Some forms of Regulations. And help Sway Undecided Non-Vaper's. But Science Alone will Not be the Deciding Factor here.

.... which is why I provided 4 other factors before it, and 1 after it. And forgot to mention

7. the legal court battles that are surely to come offer some hope that vaping will not be completely eradicated from our culture.

But, here's the part where the doom and gloomer gets to say, "get real Jman, courts aren't going to give us everything we want and this factor all by itself will not save vaping. Vaping is doomed. Doomed, I tell you.

But join CASAA today!!!"


Everything you Listed, with the Possible Exception of the Last Item, seems to Instill a Believe that there is No Need to Do anything. That things are Under Control.

This is your spin, and one that makes sense to me within perspective that from doom and gloom outlook, that doing anything is just going to hurt us and our best hope is to join CASAA and write our representative. But, haven't we done this already? I think we'd both agree on that as a yes. So, I see that as a good thing, and feel it ought to continue, AND THAT IT OFFERS US HOPE.

But you, like others, want even more of that, and say that is the answer. So, hey everyone reading this that has joined CASAA and written to your representative, please realize that this so far has done zero, and that the only way to change things is to join CASAA and write your representatives.
 

Jman8

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This is the crux of the entire issue.

Free-roaming e-liquids is the choke point.
Eliminating that will destroy most of what we know and love.

Brick and mortars will disappear.
People will only be able to order advanced equipment online from overseas.

Eventually, the influx of new vapers will slow to a crawl.
And individuals won't be investing nearly as much time and energy to advance the quality of vaping.

This should be easy to see.

If eliminating free-roaming eLiquid is the choke point, then tell me how we live in a world where BT has a lot of the money, BP has even more money, BG likely has even more money and FDA authority to carry out what ANTZ would very much like and what majority of Americans probably wouldn't even care about if it occurred, how has this not happened already? What is stopping them? The carefully written, double speaking, deeming proposals that are slowly boiling us frogs in the pot? Cause you know, it benefits ANTZ, BT and BP to have eLiquids freely roaming the planet right now. And instead of stating that in a proposal that one might think (I mean, just maybe) that BP and BT had some influence with, it would be far better to let them continue for a few more years, and, fingers crossed, hope less people get involved with this industry either as investors, workers, or consumers.

And of course, once they do choke off eLiquids completely, all the black market operators on the planet will not know what hit them. They'll be stuck without a product to distribute, cause, ya know, it's been choked off. No one will be able to get it. It'll become that one substance on the planet, above the rest (including Uranium) that no one will be able to obtain.

Sorry vapers, but dem da breaks.
But write, your representative today. There's still a chance it won't be choked off. You can certainly trust Congress to fix this issue. Or the next POTUS.
 

AndriaD

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Jman... you know I agree with pretty much all you've said above. But you are NEVER going to convince some people that "doom and gloom" isn't a foregone conclusion -- they've already decided it in their minds, so it's really kinda irrelevant to them what actually happens -- they're already living in a cage of their own pessimistic making.

But hey, maybe CASAA can wave a magic wand and set them free. :D

Andria
 

Jman8

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Jman... you know I agree with pretty much all you've said above. But you are NEVER going to convince some people that "doom and gloom" isn't a foregone conclusion -- they've already decided it in their minds, so it's really kinda irrelevant to them what actually happens -- they're already living in a cage of their own pessimistic making.

But hey, maybe CASAA can wave a magic wand and set them free. :D

Andria

Good point.

Just figure if we are having open discussion, both sides ought to be conveyed instead of only one side that dares to speak as if it is viable leadership going forward. I find it borderline disgusting.
 

AndriaD

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Good point.

Just figure if we are having open discussion, both sides ought to be conveyed instead of only one side that dares to speak as if it is viable leadership going forward. I find it borderline disgusting.

Well... I do think that vaping is almost certainly going to become more expensive; maybe a LOT more expensive, unless we can convince some of the idiots in charge to transfer some of the sin-tax to alcohol and/or snack foods with zero nutritive contents; they have to find some way to make up the monies they're NOT getting as more and more stop buying tobacco -- and isn't that MSA almost done, anyway? They're as addicted/dependent on that money as we are to the act of smoking/vaping.

My own belief is that vaping is certainly not "done for," because they'd be absolutely crazy to kill the goose laying such lovely golden eggs; they just want some or most of those eggs in their own pockets -- human nature, and CERTAINLY politicians' nature, and those igmos at FDA are just unelected politicians, they don't have the FIRST thing to do with health -- they've made that laughably clear.

I'd be willing to bet that just as soon as they lay the framework for how they're going to tax it, they'll "suddenly" have all kinds of research showing how much safer it is than smoking -- especially after the MSA runs out, and there's nothing more they can bleed out of BT. I think that's probably a major reason BT is trying to belatedly get into the vaping game; they know the gov't will have ZERO use for them after the MSA, and are trying to create a reason to be allowed to stick around.

Andria
 
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