FDA What happens if/when

[Jman8]

Well... I do think that vaping is almost certainly going to become more expensive; maybe a LOT more expensive, unless we can convince some of the idiots in charge to transfer some of the sin-tax to alcohol and/or snack foods with zero nutritive contents; they have to find some way to make up the monies they're NOT getting as more and more stop buying tobacco -- and isn't that MSA almost done, anyway? They're as addicted/dependent on that money as we are to the act of smoking/vaping.

My own belief is that vaping is certainly not "done for," because they'd be absolutely crazy to kill the goose laying such lovely golden eggs; they just want some or most of those eggs in their own pockets -- human nature, and CERTAINLY politicians' nature, and those igmos at FDA are just unelected politicians, they don't have the FIRST thing to do with health -- they've made that laughably clear.

I'd be willing to bet that just as soon as they lay the framework for how they're going to tax it, they'll "suddenly" have all kinds of research showing how much safer it is than smoking -- especially after the MSA runs out, and there's nothing more they can bleed out of BT. I think that's probably a major reason BT is trying to belatedly get into the vaping game; they know the gov't will have ZERO use for them after the MSA, and are trying to create a reason to be allowed to stick around.

Andria

I agree with much of this.

IMO, this is vastly different than the doomsaying approach that essentially says a) it will all be disappearing very soon and (somtimes adds) b) therefore join CASAA and/or write your representatives.

I think political strategy at work is to threaten its existence, and then see how much it is really being fought for. Run some numbers, and hopefully come up with number that is tax on it that people would be willing to pay. I think when anyone (allegedly) on our side conveys the idea that vaping is threatened to point of being entirely eliminated, it plays into this political strategy. The persons that join 'vaping enthusiast' type clubs or that write to representatives and convey "this saved my life" helps this strategy determine the numbers that they are ultimately seeking.

Clearly if taxes are too high, a black market will still arise, as is the case with combustibles, that are currently legal and available in many places. So, I would think the ANTZ leaning political types would take notice of this, but if they don't, their ignorance and loss. It has to be a fair tax (whatever that means).

The part where I disagree is that to make sure that tax sticks, the threat or attacks on eCigs has to be maintained indefinitely, otherwise people will seek to lower and even eliminate the excise tax categorization from the product(s). But just as there are vaping enthusiasts tuned into the political gaming, there are anti-types tuned in, and who aren't interested in taxation, but appear to favor elimination. They also appear to ignore viability of a black market arising, and seem to be okay with extreme regulation even if that could lead to hypothetical black market. Thus, their version of threatening the product will be to play as dirty as possible and utilize deception / propaganda toward their end game.

I am currently not aware of any product (ever) to be regulated out of existence. Thus, that strikes me as preposterous to believe humankind could achieve such a goal. But perhaps someone could make me aware of something that once existed, and no longer does, and the prime reason it does not is because regulators (and anti types) sought to eliminate that from public consumption and succeeded.

 

[DC2]

This is your spin, and one that makes sense to me within perspective that from doom and gloom outlook, that doing anything is just going to hurt us and our best hope is to join CASAA and write our representative. But, haven't we done this already? I think we'd both agree on that as a yes. So, I see that as a good thing, and feel it ought to continue, AND THAT IT OFFERS US HOPE.

But you, like others, want even more of that, and say that is the answer. So, hey everyone reading this that has joined CASAA and written to your representative, please realize that this so far has done zero, and that the only way to change things is to join CASAA and write your representatives.

People that want to do more can...

--Engage in the ongoing battle to win over public opinion, by educating everyone they come into contact with
--Urge everyone they know to write their representatives as well, whether they are vapers or not
--Go to every vape shop in their area and make sure they are aware of what is going on, and making their customers aware
--Use the comments section after vaping articles to tell their story, correct falsehoods, and educate

EDIT: By the way, if you have some specific suggestions on actions vapers can take, please let us now

 

[AndriaD]

I agree with much of this.

IMO, this is vastly different than the doomsaying approach that essentially says a) it will all be disappearing very soon and (somtimes adds) b) therefore join CASAA and/or write your representatives.

I think political strategy at work is to threaten its existence, and then see how much it is really being fought for. Run some numbers, and hopefully come up with number that is tax on it that people would be willing to pay. I think when anyone (allegedly) on our side conveys the idea that vaping is threatened to point of being entirely eliminated, it plays into this political strategy. The persons that join 'vaping enthusiast' type clubs or that write to representatives and convey "this saved my life" helps this strategy determine the numbers that they are ultimately seeking.

Clearly if taxes are too high, a black market will still arise, as is the case with combustibles, that are currently legal and available in many places. So, I would think the ANTZ leaning political types would take notice of this, but if they don't, their ignorance and loss. It has to be a fair tax (whatever that means).

The part where I disagree is that to make sure that tax sticks, the threat or attacks on eCigs has to be maintained indefinitely, otherwise people will seek to lower and even eliminate the excise tax categorization from the product(s). But just as there are vaping enthusiasts tuned into the political gaming, there are anti-types tuned in, and who aren't interested in taxation, but appear to favor elimination. They also appear to ignore viability of a black market arising, and seem to be okay with extreme regulation even if that could lead to hypothetical black market. Thus, their version of threatening the product will be to play as dirty as possible and utilize deception / propaganda toward their end game.

I am currently not aware of any product (ever) to be regulated out of existence. Thus, that strikes me as preposterous to believe humankind could achieve such a goal. But perhaps someone could make me aware of something that once existed, and no longer does, and the prime reason it does not is because regulators (and anti types) sought to eliminate that from public consumption and succeeded.

Actually, there is a legitimately useful drug that appears to have been regulated away, likely by those who have screaming hissy fits at the thought of anyone using ANY psychoactive drug -- codeine. Used to, you could find it in OTC cough medicine; then, they made it so the cough medicine was still OTC, but you had to sign for it. Now, all there appears to be is this "DM" stuff, which seems to cause a great deal more nausea than codeine ever thought about, so those puritan types must be loving that -- you can have your *synthetic* narcotic, but it's going to make you HORRIBLY SICK! Which definitely prevents people like *me* from ever abusing it, or even using it; I can't even take it for its intended purpose, unless I take just a drop, just a crumb, or it makes me so sick I just want to die. And when I had my surgery this summer, they did send me home with pain meds, but mild ones, since I had laparoscopy rather than a full-on abdom. incision. Old days, a mild pain med would probably have been Tylenol 3, which contains codeine; nowadays? Hydrocodone, and not very strong at all. So it's very fortunate that I really didn't have much post-op pain -- I switched to ibuprofen about the 3 day after, just to get rid of the night-sweats.

That does make sense about keeping vaping/nicotine constantly under the gun; I guess the FDA figures they don't have to play TOO dirty, since there are all those foaming-at-the-mouth ANTZ out there to do it for them. Because I do think that once the MSA runs out, the gov't will see their chance to get rid of BT's influence, and so will "discover" research showing how harmless vaping is, compared to smoking -- which will give them their license to keep it around, keep taxing it, all the while knowing the insane puritan ANTZ will serve to continue demonizing it.

Andria

 

[DC2]

I'd be willing to bet that just as soon as they lay the framework for how they're going to tax it, they'll "suddenly" have all kinds of research showing how much safer it is than smoking -- especially after the MSA runs out, and there's nothing more they can bleed out of BT. I think that's probably a major reason BT is trying to belatedly get into the vaping game; they know the gov't will have ZERO use for them after the MSA, and are trying to create a reason to be allowed to stick around.

What do you think they will be able to get more taxes from...
Prefilled tamper-proof cartridges, or free-roaming eliquid that anyone can use to refill themselves?

 

[DC2]

I am currently not aware of any product (ever) to be regulated out of existence. Thus, that strikes me as preposterous to believe humankind could achieve such a goal. But perhaps someone could make me aware of something that once existed, and no longer does, and the prime reason it does not is because regulators (and anti types) sought to eliminate that from public consumption and succeeded.

Nobody is talking about them being regulated "out of existence".

 

[Jman8]

Nobody is talking about them being regulated "out of existence".

I would say that is strongly implied. The word used instead is "eliminate."

 

[DC2]

I would say that is strongly implied. The word used instead is "eliminate."

Everybody recognizes that electronic cigarettes will remain on the market.
The point of debate is how many products, what form they will take, and who be able to sell them.

 

[Jman8]

People that want to do more can...

--Engage in the ongoing battle to win over public opinion, by educating everyone they come into contact with
--Urge everyone they know to write their representatives as well, whether they are vapers or not
--Go to every vape shop in their area and make sure they are aware of what is going on, and making their customers aware
--Use the comments section after vaping articles to tell their story, correct falsehoods, and educate

EDIT: By the way, if you have some specific suggestions on actions vapers can take, please let us now

Will doing these things that you are suggesting, offer hope (to you)? Let's say 10 vapers today did all this for the next week, would you then say vaping is likely to be eliminated from the market (upwards of 99% of all products) and that people aren't doing enough? Cause, I strongly believe that all the work done up to this point does provide hope and something to build upon. Instead, I often, or routinely, hear messages from our side like we are doomed, and that big money is the driving factor in all policy decisions going forward and, did I mention, we are doomed.

My added suggestions (none of which are new, and/or that I've said on ECF before) include:

- vaping in public, everywhere, with respect (demonstrating that it is a respectful activity, opening door for education)
- addressing / attacking ANTZ rhetoric around smoking, as FSPTCA is key legislation that vaping is up against, and will be for the foreseeable future. This puts ANTZ on defensive, and allows plausible inroads to be made about vaping, while also possibly leading to change in thinking that made for zealous legislation.
- addressing issues / legislation that seeks to ban nicotine use by minors, which routinely claims that it is much too harmful (and thus establishing the harm element for anyone paying attention)
- bringing up black market possibility (I would say likelihood) for any person that says legislation of the extreme kind will work to eliminate this product from use and/or curtail usage.

 

[DC2]

Just figure if we are having open discussion, both sides ought to be conveyed instead of only one side that dares to speak as if it is viable leadership going forward. I find it borderline disgusting.

You talk as if the "doom and gloomers" are the "leadership" of the vaping community.
There are LOTS and LOTS of leaders of the vaping community, each with their own voice and following.

So who do you think we should be following?

Honestly, though, I'm not really sure what "viable leadership" you're talking about here...
CASAA? Doom-and-Gloomers?

 

[zoiDman]

Not disagreeing with last point as states could (and NYC is) doing something with regards to eLiquids. But if FDA moves in this direction, it would be so very hard to enforce if it is less than 5 years, and I would argue around 5 years, likely more, for them to implement a definitive policy that greatly restricts eLiquid. So, this to me is agree to disagree and I currently see your 'false hope' and raise you a 'doom and gloom' spin based on your, rather vague, take on things.



For the most part, you are making my point. I precisely said that "we have a whole bunch of people that will not 'sit back and do nothing'" and then you go on to advocate for this. So, either you are stuck in the doom and gloom mode of thought, plus are making point that we have done zero good up til now, or you are making some other point and thinking I did not address this already, which is why I was compelled to quote my own self.



IOW, you have no sound rebuttal to this point.



First paragraph is doom and gloom, offering very little to no hope, in a current market where there is plenty of visible hope. Tell me, based on what you have written here, how will joining CASAA or SFATA have any benefit of advancing technology if all technological advancements for vaping, includes those made abroad, will need FDA approval, and be very expensive?

Again, you preach the doom and gloom and then have the gall to say "join CASAA" or "write your representative" as if, hey, magically that will overcome the insurmountable odds that are being painted for 'what's to come.'



.... which is why I provided 4 other factors before it, and 1 after it. And forgot to mention

7. the legal court battles that are surely to come offer some hope that vaping will not be completely eradicated from our culture.

But, here's the part where the doom and gloomer gets to say, "get real Jman, courts aren't going to give us everything we want and this factor all by itself will not save vaping. Vaping is doomed. Doomed, I tell you.

But join CASAA today!!!"




This is your spin, and one that makes sense to me within perspective that from doom and gloom outlook, that doing anything is just going to hurt us and our best hope is to join CASAA and write our representative. But, haven't we done this already? I think we'd both agree on that as a yes. So, I see that as a good thing, and feel it ought to continue, AND THAT IT OFFERS US HOPE.

But you, like others, want even more of that, and say that is the answer. So, hey everyone reading this that has joined CASAA and written to your representative, please realize that this so far has done zero, and that the only way to change things is to join CASAA and write your representatives.

I think You and I just Fundamental Disagree on how to get Some of what we each Want.

I advocate that People get Active. That they Voice their Opinions and Support Groups that are in line with those Opinions. And that they try to Spread the Word to the people who are not Members of the ECF to better Inform them of what is going on.

You believe that People do Not Need to be Active. And that the Black Market will take care of things. You also Offer No Solutions to Changes that are happening to the Vaping Community on Every Level.

Sticking your Head in the Sand is by far the Easiest way to Avoid a Problem. But I Can’t think of Any Problems that Go Away or get Better being Doing Nothing.


Your Approach to the Coming FDA Regulations reminds me of a saying you hear Many Times regarding Advocacy.

“If you are Not Part of the Solution, then you are Part of the Problem.”

 

[Kent C]

....FDA are just unelected politicians, they don't have the FIRST thing to do with health -- they've made that laughably clear.

I'd be willing to bet that just as soon as they lay the framework for how they're going to tax it, they'll "suddenly" have all kinds of research showing how much safer it is than smoking -- ....

A "sin tax" requires a "sin". Continuing a sin tax requires "understanding"

 

[DC2]

My added suggestions (none of which are new, and/or that I've said on ECF before) include:

- vaping in public, everywhere, with respect (demonstrating that it is a respectful activity, opening door for education)
- addressing / attacking ANTZ rhetoric around smoking, as FSPTCA is key legislation that vaping is up against, and will be for the foreseeable future. This puts ANTZ on defensive, and allows plausible inroads to be made about vaping, while also possibly leading to change in thinking that made for zealous legislation.
- addressing issues / legislation that seeks to ban nicotine use by minors, which routinely claims that it is much too harmful (and thus establishing the harm element for anyone paying attention)
- bringing up black market possibility (I would say likelihood) for any person that says legislation of the extreme kind will work to eliminate this product from use and/or curtail usage.

So to be clear, what you'd like to see is that the vaping world shift some of their resources towards...

1) Vaping in public everywhere with respect
2) Fighting against the lies related to smoking
3) Fighting against bans on allowing minors to have access to nicotine
4) Telling everyone not to worry so much because the black market will always be there for us

 

[zoiDman]

People that want to do more can...

--Engage in the ongoing battle to win over public opinion, by educating everyone they come into contact with
--Urge everyone they know to write their representatives as well, whether they are vapers or not
--Go to every vape shop in their area and make sure they are aware of what is going on, and making their customers aware
--Use the comments section after vaping articles to tell their story, correct falsehoods, and educate

EDIT: By the way, if you have some specific suggestions on actions vapers can take, please let us now

What is Baffling about Jman8's position is How Does people being more Active hurt the Vaping Community?

 

[Jman8]

Everybody recognizes that electronic cigarettes will remain on the market.
The point of debate is how many products, what form they will take, and who be able to sell them.

And our side appears to have many who believe that once FDA regulations go into effect, it'll be a matter of time (I estimate that this segment believes it to be 3 years or less) that what will remain is 1%, or less, of all products that currently exist.

And to motivate people now, the 99% figure (of elimination of all products) is touted as accurate representation of what to expect, unless you do something today, right now. But don't let that be an attack on smoking items/FSPTCA, nor on use by minors, cause those are items that potentially we agree with ANTZ on, and why rock the boat?

During FDA comment period, I was strongly advocating for move of the grandfather date, by writing to Congress persons, which would plausibly lead to 100% of all products currently on the market being allowed to stay on the market. I feel this gained very little momentum, even while it is still possible it occurs and I haven't lost hope that it could still happen. If regulations are a foregone conclusion, I see this as arguably our best strategic move, though still think aggressive attack on the minors issue is the best strategy, even while I recognize it is the toughest battle to be fought. I am not shy on wanting to wage that battle and unlikely I ever take that off the table.

 

[Jman8]

What is Baffling about Jman8's position is How Does people being more Active hurt the Vaping Community?

Ridiculous spin, and unfounded in my comments. If you can find in this in my comments, I'd be interested.

Truly baffling is how this has already been done, will continue to be done (guaranteed) and yet doomsayers will still claim that next piece of federal legislation will eliminate 99% of products (regardless of actions we take, or ignoring that altogether in their messaging).

 

[Jman8]

So to be clear, what you'd like to see is that the vaping world shift some of their resources towards...

1) Vaping in public everywhere with respect
2) Fighting against the lies related to smoking
3) Fighting against bans on allowing minors to have access to nicotine
4) Telling everyone not to worry so much because the black market will always be there for us

Numbers 1 thru 3 are fairly accurate. #4 is one that I'm not sure why you keep spinning it the way you do, regardless of how I state it. My guess as to why you spin it this way is that it does take thunder away from the "99% of all products will be eliminated" and so to keep that meme alive, then the black market meme must be spun in way that is confusing or hyperbolic.

 

[DC2]

During FDA comment period, I was strongly advocating for move of the grandfather date, by writing to Congress persons, which would plausibly lead to 100% of all products currently on the market being allowed to stay on the market. I feel this gained very little momentum, even while it is still possible it occurs and I haven't lost hope that it could still happen. If regulations are a foregone conclusion, I see this as arguably our best strategic move, though still think aggressive attack on the minors issue is the best strategy, even while I recognize it is the toughest battle to be fought. I am not shy on wanting to wage that battle and unlikely I ever take that off the table.

I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that if we can't STOP the deeming regulations, that moving the grandfather date is perhaps the next best alternative.
But the FDA already stated that they did not believe they have the legal authority to move the grandfather date.

 

[DC2]

Numbers 1 thru 3 are fairly accurate. #4 is one that I'm not sure why you keep spinning it the way you do, regardless of how I state it. My guess as to why you spin it this way is that it does take thunder away from the "99% of all products will be eliminated" and so to keep that meme alive, then the black market meme must be spun in way that is confusing or hyperbolic.

Then restate it how you want me to state it...
Because how I stated it is how I hear it, not how I "spin" it.

 

[zoiDman]

So to be clear, what you'd like to see is that the vaping world shift some of their resources towards...

1) Vaping in public everywhere with respect
2) Fighting against the lies related to smoking
3) Fighting against bans on allowing minors to have access to nicotine
4) Telling everyone not to worry so much because the black market will always be there for us

I Can't think of Anything that would Swing Undecided Policy / Law Makers towards Anti-Vaping Regulations and Restrictions Faster than someone Seriously Advocating this.

This is ANTZ Ammunition of the Highest Order.

 

[Jman8]

I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that if we can't STOP the deeming regulations, that moving the grandfather date is perhaps the next best alternative.
But the FDA already stated that they did not believe they have the legal authority to move the grandfather date.

Which is the FDA's way of indicating that you change the grandfather date, it would have to come from legislative body that passed FSPTCA.

If we are not moving on change of grandfather date, then there must be fairly strong belief that we can STOP the deeming regulations, and thus less reason to be worried about them.

If this is disputed, then perhaps we can continue this dance around why not actively seek to adjust the grandfather date. If you feel there is active thread where this strategy is being laid out, please point that out to me. I'll look for your posts there as well as others in this thread who feel I am overlooking certain things.