FDA What happens if/when

[Jman8]

Then restate it how you want me to state it...
Because how I stated it is how I hear it, not how I "spin" it.

I'll go with what I said before. Feel free to paraphrase with your own wording, and if possible bold any words by you that you feel may be going in direction of 'how you hear it.'

bringing up black market possibility (I would say likelihood) for any person that says legislation of the extreme kind will work to eliminate this product from use and/or curtail usage.

 

[Jman8]

I Can't think of Anything that would Swing Undecided Policy / Law Makers towards Anti-vaping Regulations and Restrictions Faster than someone Seriously Advocating this.

This is ANTZ Ammunition of the Highest Order.

Explain your hyperbolic take on this with specifics. I'm up for this intellectual debate.

I hope you (and possibly others) are.

 

[DC2]

I'll go with what I said before. Feel free to paraphrase with your own wording, and if possible bold any words by you that you feel may be going in direction of 'how you hear it.'

I'm sorry, but...

bringing up black market possibility (I would say likelihood) for any person that says legislation of the extreme kind will work to eliminate this product from use and/or curtail usage

Sounds to me like...

Telling everyone not to worry so much because the black market will always be there for us

If there is a difference, then you're going to have to explain it.

 

[DC2]

Basically, I'm just trying to get a concise summary of what you would like to see vapers doing.


Here is mine...

--Join CASAA and The vaping Militia, and take part in their various calls to action
--Write your representatives and tell your story about what vaping has done to improve your life
--Urge everyone you know to write their representatives as well, whether they are vapers or not
--Engage in the ongoing battle to win over public opinion, by educating everyone you come into contact with
--Go to every vape shop in your area and make sure they are aware of what is going on, and making their customers aware
--Use the comments section after vaping articles to tell your story, correct falsehoods, and educate

 

[zoiDman]

I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that if we can't STOP the deeming regulations, that moving the grandfather date is perhaps the next best alternative.
But the FDA already stated that they did not believe they have the legal authority to move the grandfather date.

I Don't think stopping Deeming is a winnable Fight. If one feels that they can, and that there are Viable Legal Avenues to be perused, Great.

What I'm more Interested in is Specifics in Actual FDA Rules. Here is a Good Example.

From the people I talk with, there is the Consensus that there will be Limits on Nicotine. No Question about.

So what I believe is Worth Fighting for are having the Nicotine Level be At Least 28mg/ml. I would like to See 36mg/ml. But I think Realistically, 28mg/ml is a More Obtainable Goal.

Some People see this as a Loss. That there should be No Limits on Nicotine. And it would be Great if that could be so. But if it Isn't Possible, if the FDA is Going to put Limits on Nicotine, then I would like to see those Limits High Enough so that a Person Switching from Analogs has a Decent Chance of Making it.

There are Going to be Changes to the e-Cigarette Market. No Doubt about it. So, to me, My Fight is to Achieve Reasonable Changes that still allow the Benefits of e-Cigarette use to be seen.

 

[Jman8]

If there is a difference, then you're going to have to explain it.

The difference is that I said it needs to be brought up as part of the discussion with those who seek extreme regulation, as a plausible outcome of their regulations. That was my point of emphasis in the previous statement and the only way I referenced 'our side' is by alluding to those people on our side who tout the extremist legislation, yet often appear to not mention that this would result in a black market, once implemented.

Compelled to elaborate on this further, but must stop and see if you understand this point first.

 

[zoiDman]

Explain your hyperbolic take on this with specifics. I'm up for this intellectual debate.

I hope you (and possibly others) are.

It Isn't even worth the Bandwidth to Explain it to You.

And Thankfully, there are VERY Few People who believe that e-Cigarettes should be Sold to Minors.

 

[DC2]

The difference is that I said it needs to be brought up as part of the discussion with those who seek extreme regulation, as a plausible outcome of their regulations.

I think I'm safe in saying that is already being done.

That was my point of emphasis in the previous statement and the only way I referenced 'our side' is by alluding to those people on our side who tout the extremist legislation, yet often appear to not mention that this would result in a black market, once implemented.

So you saying that you want the "doom and gloomers" to make sure to mention that if all else fails there will be a black market to fall back on?

 

[Jman8]

Basically, I'm just trying to get a concise summary of what you would like to see vapers doing.

Here is mine:

-- Actively attack the basis of FSPTCA. If not familiar with FSPTCA, find a copy and read through it, as it is the basis of what vaping is currently up against in most US jurisdictions. Have discussions online with fellow vapers about this to solidify your understanding and to formulate an argument or even plan of action to attack FSPTCA's foundation. This may entail supporting rights of (all) other tobacco products, but you need not lose focus on vaping rights as your chief concern. How you formulate your argument(s) from this counterposition of FSPTCA will serve as basis for further points described below (mainly in communicating with other political types from position of being a member of a vaping advocacy group).
-- Join CASAA and similar vaping advocacy groups, and take part in their various calls to action. Evaluate those CTA's that align with your thoughts on vaping rights and please help spread the word to anyone that you think would be aligned with those aims.
--Write your representatives and tell your vaping story, and address current legislative measures that seek to curtail vaping. Use CASAA resources, as desired, if you are unsure how to word certain points, or to bring scientific studies into your argument to add weight to your position.
--Engage in the ongoing battle to win over public opinion, by educating everyone you come into contact with. This may be done best by openly vaping in public, though must be done with respect.
-- Although controversial, be willing to tackle the issue of tobacco/nicotine product use by minors. This is the foundational item that rules them all, and for sure rules FSPTCA. It is a political football that the opposing sides of the debate want to pin to the other side via hyperbolic and misguided applications of what is truly at stake. Understand this issue thoroughly and be prepared to address it squarely. Failure to do so, will make it confusing to navigate through what is truly going on within this particular political battle.
--Go to every vape shop in your area and make sure they are aware of what is going on, and making their customers aware of FSPTCA, CASAA, and any other vaping advocacy position that aligns with your key understandings of the issue.
--Use the comments section after vaping articles to tell your story, correct falsehoods, and educate
-- If presented with rhetoric from anyone engaged in this ongoing political discussion whereby persons are seeking to eliminate / ban / extremely regulate vaping products, let them know that their extremist positions will cause a black market to arise, as this is the most reasonable response to unreasonable regulations. Not alluding to the black market during discussions, especially with extremist types, would be intellectually dishonest and could make them believe that there isn't such a high cost should the harsh regulations be passed. Let them know that even while smoking is legal and found in many retails stores across the country, that black markets exist for this product precisely because of extreme regulations put on this product. Also remind them that kids currently do use tobacco products, and that they do so by engaging in a black market.

 

[Kent C]

But perhaps someone could make me aware of something that once existed, and no longer does, and the prime reason it does not is because regulators (and anti types) sought to eliminate that from public consumption and succeeded.

Some are not totally out of existence but special permits, etc. needed.... some exist on black market

Black Talon ammunition
Silencers
Full Auto weapons
Certain gas cans with regular spouts
Toilets with larger capacity
High volume shower heads
Coal with sulfur
Cars without seatbelts and all other EPA restrictions cat. converter
Leaded gas
Leaded paint
Asbestos roofing tiles, etc.
Lawn Darts (Jarts)
Incandescent light bulbs are on their way out
DDT
Many good insecticides
Freon
Candy cigarettes
Dual blade circular saws
3 wheel ATVs
Common sense
Liberty

 

[Jman8]

Some are not totally out of existence but special permits, etc. needed.... some exist on black market

I was looking for "out of existence" and "done by regulators." Feel free to inform me of those as I like that you at least provided a list.

Common sense
Liberty

 

[Davey59]

Some are not totally out of existence but special permits, etc. needed.... some exist on black market

Black Talon ammunition
Silencers
Full Auto weapons
Certain gas cans with regular spouts
Toilets with larger capacity
High volume shower heads
Coal with sulfur
Cars without seatbelts and all other EPA restrictions cat. converter
Leaded gas
Leaded paint
Asbestos roofing tiles, etc.
Lawn Darts (Jarts)
Incandescent light bulbs are on their way out
DDT
Many good insecticides
Freon
Candy cigarettes
Dual blade circular saws
3 wheel ATVs
Common sense
Liberty

Heh, Jarts! I actually have a set of those. Which brings up that every one of those things except leaded gas still exist. Other than Candy cigarette which are still sold they are all off the general retail market though. Heh, common sense and liberty! gotta love it.

 

[Davey59]

Seriously, the thought occurred to me that what we need is a minority (skin color) supporting vaping. See what the politicians would do then! If you don't support vaping YOU ARE A RACIST! take one right from their playbook. No kidding.

 

[DC2]

Here is mine:

So it almost sounds like we pretty much agree on what actions vapers should be taking.

The main difference appears to be that you want vapers to be doing more in the way of fighting the basis of the FSPTCA.
I assume that to mean, as you noted previously, fighting the lies about smoking and second-hand smoke?

And also that you do not want us to support bans for minors, and instead argue against such bans and the basis for such bans.
Can you clarify what you think is the basis of these bans that we should argue against?

-- If presented with rhetoric from anyone engaged in this ongoing political discussion whereby persons are seeking to eliminate / ban / extremely regulate vaping products, let them know that their extremist positions will cause a black market to arise, as this is the most reasonable response to unreasonable regulations. Not alluding to the black market during discussions, especially with extremist types, would be intellectually dishonest and could make them believe that there isn't such a high cost should the harsh regulations be passed. Let them know that even while smoking is legal and found in many retails stores across the country, that black markets exist for this product precisely because of extreme regulations put on this product. Also remind them that kids currently do use tobacco products, and that they do so by engaging in a black market.

So you want to make sure that part of our arguments against regulation include pointing out clearly that black markets will result from over-regulation?
If that is your whole point about the black market thing, I can easily agree.

If your point includes the idea that we should not worry so much about regulations because there will be a black market, I can't agree with that.

 

[Kent C]

I was looking for "out of existence" and "done by regulators." Feel free to inform me of those as I like that you at least provided a list.

I went with your "eliminate that from public consumption and succeeded."

The 'public consumption part' includes some of the arms and chemical insecticides and herbicides. And some of the others - although of course full auto, silencers, etc. still exist in military and special permit situations but not general public consumption.

 

[Tangaroav]

Seriously, the thought occurred to me that what we need is a minority (skin color) supporting vaping. See what the politicians would do then! If you don't support vaping YOU ARE A RACIST! take one right from their playbook. No kidding.

Let's not go there. Racism is a all too common mental sickness. We are all actively looking for a cure and vaping sure is not the answer.

 

[Davey59]

Let's not go there. Racism is a all too common mental sickness. We are all actively looking for a cure and vaping sure is not the answer.

I do not think it is common at all. I think their are those that thrive and profit from perpetuating it blowing things out of proportion and seeking it out where there is none claiming it is everywhere. I see it frequently brought into an issue that does not warrant it, stirring the flames and stoking hate, and always by one side of the political spectrum.

I say it is fair game to flip the card on them.

 

[Ca Ike]

"A network of small, complicated rules. It does not break wills, but softens them. It does not tyrannize, it hinders, represses, stupefies, and finally it reduces each nation to being nothing more than a flock of timid animals, of which the government is the shepherd."

Alexis De Tocqueville - "Democracy In America", 1840

One of my favorite quotes

 

[Tangaroav]

Racism is one of the worst and deadly trait of humankind. Some go even as far as calling it natural. It is all around us. It is not blown out of proportion.

 

[classwife]

Way off topic here