What is this Battery? (OrbitronicNCR18650PD)

[pdib]

Hey Folks, I don't know where else to post this question. Your help would be greatly appreciated. So, Pbusardo is all about this battery. I went to the site . . . . .NCR18650PD High Drain Panasonic 18650 2900 mAh Li-ion Battery free shipping from Florida . . . . . . and can't figure out what the chemistry is, whether it needs protection/is protected (looks like not). If this battery loses control, will it explode? get really hot? Although I can't imagine pushing the pulse discharge envelope, I can see pulsing 8-10 seconds at 10Amps and 3-6 seconds at 12-14Amps. What do you think? THANKS!

 

[Ericscott_68]

Looks like in the reviews it's being used in a Max and a couple of vamos. Apparently you have to order the PD version for the protection which makes them a little longer. Hopefully a battery expert will have more info soon.

 

[jmarkus]

looks to be a imr type li-ion, 10amp discharge...prolly compares the to aw imrs and other high drains.

 

[dr g]

I think it's NCR = nickel cobalt rechargeable?

The capacity is quite impressive compared to IMRs

 

[Rader2146]

Compared to the CGR18650CH @ 7A....



I dont think that they live up to the praise that they are getting. They may do great for mid-power (10-15w) vapers and VV/VW devices, but they fall flat at high loads with a big initial sag (aka: voltage drop). With a .5v drop at 7A...I'd hate to see a 12-14A, or even an 18A pulse.

Chemistry wise, Panasonic rarely lets the cat out of the bag. There are only so many ways to create certain battery characteristics. My money is on Nickel-Manganese-Cobalt (NMC) with a high nickel content for the extra capacity. But...this is merely conjecture as the only data I have is performance characteristics of the different chemistry's.

For the MAX performance crowd the AW IMR 1600 is still a rock solid performer and the Samsung INR18650-20R 2000mAh is better yet. I havent seen any data on the MNKE's, but I do read more and more that the hype behind them isnt standing the test of time.

 

[Rader2146]

I think it's NCR = nickel cobalt rechargeable?

The capacity is quite impressive compared to IMRs

On the surface, the capacity is impressive. However, all the additional capacity is in the low voltage range that no APV will ever make full use of (<3.3V).

It makes a great high power flashlight battery....but there are better choices for APVs, especially for SLR Mechs

 

[dr g]

Good lesson about drain curves and ratings. Doesnt seem like they would be much better in regulated devices regardless, they don't run at that low voltage either, AFAIK.

 

[pdib]

Thanks, folks! I found a few charts too, and came to realize that the AW 1600 is probably still my best bet. I've been running MNKEs; and have been real happy with them. This will sound dumb; but if I were to portay my personal experience with MNKEs, I would use the chart comparing AW1600s to AW2000s (wherein the MNKEs = the 1600s). Is there anything to my suspicion that a low mAh figure (given that a certain battery size could accommodate more) paired with a high Max discharge rating is a possible indicator of low internal resistance and good results with high draw pulsing?

 

[Rader2146]

Is there anything to my suspicion that a low mAh figure (given that a certain battery size could accommodate more) paired with a high Max discharge rating is a possible indicator of low internal resistance and good results with high draw pulsing?

Correct. Internal resistance is probably the main factor in the manufacturers discharge ratings. Heat is the enemy and resistance creates heat. More internal resistance, more heat, lower discharge rating. Discharging a high resistance cell too fast can send it into thermal runaway due to the heat created. So the discharge ratings are set from a heat management perspective.

mAh vs discharge rating can get tricky with the newer technology such as NMC (NMC = product of electric/hybrid vehicle R&D), but a true IMR will have a very low capacity (manganese just doesnt have the energy density) with very low resistance and a high discharge rating. Cobalt has a very high energy density but also high resistance, low discharge rating, and probably most importantly...high volatility. Nickel is the link between the two extremes. Depending on the nickel content, the battery can be tailored anywhere in between. High nickel content, higher capacity, lower discharge rate...and vise versa. Nickel also adds to the stability of the cobalt leading to a safer battery while still reaping the rewards of cobalt's high energy density.

 

[pdib]

Thanks, Rader.

 

[BmoreJeff]

this battery im told is great for sub ohm vaping. if you read more reviews it trumps the aw 18650s for longevity and durability in all aspects of vaping, but thats just what ive seen in reviews. i just ordered 2 of them to give it a shot so i cant say for sure if they are better. but depending on your resistance im sure these are suitable, if you read the info on them they have a 18 amp 5-6 sec discharge rate, which is more than double than an aw18650.

 

[Rader2146]

this battery im told is great for sub ohm vaping. if you read more reviews it trumps the aw 18650s for longevity and durability in all aspects of vaping, but thats just what ive seen in reviews. i just ordered 2 of them to give it a shot so i cant say for sure if they are better. but depending on your resistance im sure these are suitable, if you read the info on them they have a 18 amp 5-6 sec discharge rate, which is more than double than an aw18650.

The funny thing about reviews is that there is a human factor that plays a very large part in the review. I prefer tests.

AW 1600mAh vs NCR18560PD
7A (~.6Ω)


First thing that I notice is the massive difference in voltage from the very beginning. Ever read the threads about voltage drop in mechanicals? Often times there is an easy answer to decreasing the voltage drop...get a better battery. The AW has over a .3v advantage right from the start. Second thing is the midrange voltage; higher voltage over the usable charge of the battery. This equates to longer run time before the vape gets weak and it's time to recharge. Third thing is the un-usable lower range. 2900mAh sounds impressive...but how much of it will you use? With my setup, I find that anything below 3.5v under load is getting pretty weak. According to the 7A test, 3.5V on an AW 1600 gets you a usable capacity of 800mAh where the NCR/PD is only about 550mAh.

BTW, the AW 1600 has a continuous discharge rating of 24 amps.

These are the reasons that I dont think they live up the the praise that they are getting. But (and thats a big BUT)...ultimately, nothing that I say amounts to a hill of beans. Use whatever battery works for you and your setup, and the only thing that matters is that you are happy with it.

 

[asdaq]

Mad props to WillyB, no? There is still some room in a co-op for efest 18650's right now.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

[BmoreJeff]

The funny thing about reviews is that there is a human factor that plays a very large part in the review. I prefer tests.

AW 1600mAh vs NCR18560PD
7A (~.6Ω)


First thing that I notice is the massive difference in voltage from the very beginning. Ever read the threads about voltage drop in mechanicals? Often times there is an easy answer to decreasing the voltage drop...get a better battery. The AW has over a .3v advantage right from the start. Second thing is the midrange voltage; higher voltage over the usable charge of the battery. This equates to longer run time before the vape gets weak and it's time to recharge. Third thing is the un-usable lower range. 2900mAh sounds impressive...but how much of it will you use? With my setup, I find that anything below 3.5v under load is getting pretty weak. According to the 7A test, 3.5V on an AW 1600 gets you a usable capacity of 800mAh where the NCR/PD is only about 550mAh.

BTW, the AW 1600 has a continuous discharge rating of 24 amps.

These are the reasons that I dont think they live up the the praise that they are getting. But (and thats a big BUT)...ultimately, nothing that I say amounts to a hill of beans. Use whatever battery works for you and your setup, and the only thing that matters is that you are happy with it.

so judging by the info here these batts would be good for sub ohm vaping. at a constant discharge rate of 15c, these would be able to handle 24a, so you could vape as low as a .18 ohm coil with this and be safe correct? thanks for the info, i never knew they had a 1600mah, i was aware of the 2000 and up

 

[Strontium]

Rader, I think that you are comparing apples, and oranges.
Orbtronic CGR18650CH is bare cell, Enerpower (never heard) is protected NCR18650PD.
The key here is obviously badly designed protection which is causing that big voltage drop.

If you want to compare apples to apples take a look at this graph.

AkkuDB

Now you see PD performance.That Enerpower or whatever they call it cannot come even close.

I think PD is made for long run time with decent discharge current levels. For 4.2V to 3.9V range there are many cells that will outperform any cell that is mentioned on this forum. Of course below 3.9V voltage drops like a rock. It is a trade off.

Your all other points, and thoughts are correct IMO.

 

[pdib]

↑ same/same for where I vape. (this akkuDB chart has them neck&neck in the SLR vaper's range of interest.) I've been looking at some charts too, and found the same type of results as Rader. I swap batts at about 3.8v. . . . . . At tasteyourjuice.com, (homepage) I see a chart comparing the PD2900 to the AW2000. In my range, AW wins. Then I go to the comparator Battery test-review 18650 comparator . . . . . . and do one on AW2000 vs. AW1600 @ 7 amps. So.


Also, I've got 4 MNKE18650s and they are consistent amongst themselves. They compare, in my personal experience, to the AW1600s quite nicely: performing better in my vape-range than my AW2000.

I'd love to see a test based solely on 5-10 sec. pulses at, say, 7-8amps.

 

[pdib]

Rader, I think that you are comparing apples, and oranges.
Orbtronic CGR18650CH is bare cell, Enerpower (never heard) is protected NCR18650PD.
The key here is obviously badly designed protection which is causing that big voltage drop.

If you want to compare apples to apples take a look at this graph.

AkkuDB

Now you see PD performance.That Enerpower or whatever they call it cannot come even close.

I think PD is made for long run time with decent discharge current levels. For 4.2V to 3.9V range there are many cells that will outperform any cell that is mentioned on this forum. Of course below 3.9V voltage drops like a rock. It is a trade off.

Your all other points, and thoughts are correct IMO.

Please do list them, Strontium. Chemistry/safety is a must, tho. TIA

 

[pdib]

this battery im told is great for sub ohm vaping. if you read more reviews it trumps the aw 18650s for longevity and durability in all aspects of vaping, but thats just what ive seen in reviews. i just ordered 2 of them to give it a shot so i cant say for sure if they are better. but depending on your resistance im sure these are suitable, if you read the info on them they have a 18 amp 5-6 sec discharge rate, which is more than double than an aw18650.

MNKE 18650 max. pulse is 60 amp (or so its listed)

Also, I might be wrong, but it seems like your comparing PD2900 max. pulse to AW2000 max. continuous.

 

[Switched]

good imfo here