What's the best 18650 for 10a vaping?

[DaveP]

There are some vapers who have used the same set of batteries for 4 whole years and still were able to confirm the measured capacity had gone down by not more than 20% after. (A significant loss in measured capacity is one of primary/representative indicators that can be used to try and quantify battery aging.) A few months longer than one year appears to be about average ("about average", i.e., fairly close to what seems to be the average for most people who vape on a daily basis). For more info on the related subject of when should we replace our batteries, navigate to 12:52 in this recorded live stream:


(After 21:18 you can fast forward to 23:22 if you want to skip that part.)

I've rotated Sony VCT6, LG HG2, and 30Q for years. I see the internal resistance rising toward 100 milliohms on the older ones, but they have served me well for 10W vaping. I'm still looking for a 4000mah 18650, but most of those are in the 2x700 format.

 

[dripster]

I've rotated Sony VCT6, LG HG2, and 30Q for years. I see the internal resistance rising toward 100 milliohms on the older ones, but they have served me well for 10W vaping. I'm still looking for a 4000mah 18650, but most of those are in the 2x700 format.

At 10W, yes of course. But the OP is vaping at 30W (about 10A).

As a result from the fact that the Wh rating is by far the dominant factor in determining the vaping time, it doesn't actually matter that the P26A only has 2600mAh compared to 3000mAh for the ones you listed, if you're vaping at 10A. This is because, at 10A, the Wh rating of the Molicel P26A equals 7.8Wh according to Mooch's test results (versus 7.72Wh for the Sony VTC6, 7.53Wh for the Samsung 30Q, 7.51Wh for the LG HG2, navigate to 11:26 in the video below). In fact, having less mAh can be considered a real bonus because it also means it will be charged faster.

 

[DaveP]

At 10W, yes of course. But the OP is vaping at 30W (about 10A).

As a result from the fact that the Wh rating is by far the dominant factor in determining the vaping time, it doesn't actually matter that the P26A only has 2600mAh compared to 3000mAh for the ones you listed, if you're vaping at 10A. This is because, at 10A, the Wh rating of the Molicel P26A equals 7.8Wh according to Mooch's test results (versus 7.72Wh for the Sony VTC6, 7.53Wh for the Samsung 30Q, 7.51Wh for the LG HG2, navigate to 11:26 in the video below). In fact, having less mAh can be considered a real bonus because it also means it will be charged faster.

Agree. High watt vaping requires a higher amp rated cell than my 10W vape (about 3.3A). Vape time drops as current draw increases, so a cell capable of producing higher current delivery is required to yield sufficient vape time at 30W levels.

Watt hours
2000mah cell at a nominal 3.7v level will produce 7.4wh

A 3000mah cell will deliver 11.4wh, but with lower amperage capacity than the 2000mah cell.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

Watt hours
2000mah cell at a nominal 3.7v level will produce 7.4wh

A 3000mah cell will deliver 11.4wh, but with lower amperage capacity than the 2000mah cell.

How are you calculating those Watt Hours results?

Mooch’s measurements are down to 3.2 volts, the typical cut off voltage of a regulated device. Anything under that is not being used, therefore not taken into account when calculating Watt Hours. Unfortunately, Mooch’s 10 amp discharge graphs for the P26A and the 30Q are not on the same scale (the picture is the same size, but the AmpHrs differ), so difficult to overlay the 2. However, it is still clear to see that the P26A operates at a higher voltage throughout it’s discharged down to 3.2 volts vs the 30Q. This contributes to it’s higher Watt Hours rating. If we were to measure down to 2.8 or even 2.5 volts, then the results would be different and most likely favour the 30Q. But we do not vape down to those voltages so the results have no value to us.

We can see this in effect with Mooch’s 3000mAh shoot out. With a 15amp discharge, the VTC6 yields a higher Watt Hours over the 30Q and HG2 because it operates at a higher voltage than the other 2 cells over the course of the discharge. The online Watt Hour calculators do not take this into account.

mAh ratings are measured using <1amp discharge and down to 2.5 volts. We do not vape at <1 amps and down to 2.5 volts which makes mAh ratings a questionable value. To determine the longest lasting battery (in terms of run time, not longevity), we need to measure using our typical current draw in which we vape at, and down to our typical terminating or cutoff voltage.

 

[DaveP]

I just calculated from a full single cell average 3.7v. Quick and dirty for comparison of the two at fresh charge levels. A true average of the range would produce significantly less.

2000mah = 2A. 2A x 3.7v = 7.4 watt hours. Quick and dirty, but close enough for comparison.

 

[dripster]

I just calculated from a full single cell average 3.7v. Quick and dirty for comparison of the two at fresh charge levels. A true average of the range would produce significantly less.

2000mah = 2A. 2A x 3.7v = 7.4 watt hours. Quick and dirty, but close enough for comparison.

No. This is nowhere nearly close enough for comparison. A good example of a 2000mAh battery would be the Samsung 20S. According to Mooch's test results, continuous discharge down to 3.2V it delivers 6.0Wh at 10A, 5.0Wh at 20A, 3.9Wh at 30A. Lets compare it to the Molicel P26A, which has 2600mAh so 30% more mAh. The numbers are 7.8Wh at 10A so 30% more Wh. And 6.2Wh at 20A so only 24% more Wh, not 30% more. This is because, due to the lower DC internal resistance of the 20S, at 20A it runs a tad more efficiently than the P26A does. But the DC internal resistance of the P26A is still also fairly low, which helps to explain why this difference in efficiency is not huge, BUT... the closer you get to the CDR of the battery that has the lowest CDR of the two─in this instance that would be the P26A, which has a CDR of 25A versus 30A for the 20S─the bigger this difference in efficiency will be.

Now, if you look at the DC internal resistance of the Sony VTC6, the Samsung 30Q, the LG HG2, and compare THAT to the P26A, that's when you start to see the fact it really can, and really does matter, quite a lot actually. Even, if you are at only half of the CDR of the LG HG2, the P26A still wins (by a narrow margin, but then, winning is still winning...), despite the LG HG2 is 3000mAh. Just to illustrate my point re the efficiency. And then I haven't even mentioned the fact a battery that runs at a higher voltage for most of the "discharge down to 3.2V cycle" causes a regulated mod to draw less amps on average so the battery gets discharged even (just a little bit) slower as a result. But charging a 3000mAh battery takes longer than charging a 2600mAh battery like I said, and, if you try to compensate for this difference by increasing the charging rate of your charger, then what will happen next is the battery will age faster, thereby causing the measured capacity of the battery to deteriorate faster. So, to be completely frank, it's a dead end for the 3000mAh apostles, when the price difference isn't exactly going to force one to eat Top Ramen for two weeks or anything like that.

 

[Mikes1992]

It is actually quite disappointing that high capacity batteries suffer from higher voltage drop. The MJ1 is a 3,500mah cell but it's rated at 10a which means it doesn't beat the 7.8wh of the 2,600mah P26A at 10a, The MJ1 delivers around 7.5wh down to 3.2v at 10a and I can't imagine it would stay cool like the P26A does. You're essentially wasting the extra capacity to heat it up which will wear the battery quicker (plus the wear on the cell would show up quicker because eventually you'd be operating over the CDR as the performance drops).

Also about battery longevity, my VTC5 bought in Nov 2018 is still going strong, on my estimates (based on the 6.3wh estimate from mooch) it should have provided 359 puffs down to 3.2v at 30w (at an average of 2.1s/puff which is 57 puffs per Wh at 30w). I'm currently at 350 puffs and it's just edging on being flat, theoretically the P26A should be able to provide 445 puffs but I haven't tested it yet, I took it off charge early yesterday and got to 305 puffs then switched over to my fully charged VTC5. I've just fully charged the P26A so hopefully it will hit the expected 445 puffs. My average daily puff counts is around 300, with a max of 400 so it should be more then adequate if it can achieve that.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

@Mikes1992 – curious to know where are you getting the Watt Hour ratings for the MJ1 and VTC5? Both of these cells were some of Mooch’s earlier tests where he did not provide such data.

Also suspicious of the 7.5Wh at 10 amps for the MJ1. Looking at Mooch’s test for this cell, the 10 amp plot is pretty poor especially compared to the 30Q which is rated as 7.5Wh @ 10amps down to 3.2 volts

 

[mimöschen]

The MJ1 delivers about 6.5Wh at 10A.

Test of LG 18650 MJ1 3500mAh (Green)

 

[Punk In Drublic]

The MJ1 delivers about 6.5Wh at 10A.

Test of LG 18650 MJ1 3500mAh (Green)

 

[dripster]

The MJ1 delivers about 6.5Wh at 10A.

Test of LG 18650 MJ1 3500mAh (Green)

Yes, but Mooch stated (in his list of recommended batteries for regulated mods) it is best used at under 7A (about 21W). This is because, in practice, at over 7A the huge voltage sag of the MJ1 is causing most regulated mods to start displaying the "battery low" message much sooner than you'd normally expect. (The same also applies to the Panasonic/Sanyo NCR18650GA.) But at 7A, down to 3.2V the Wh that the P26A delivers is on par with the MJ1, and, charging the MJ1 takes even longer still. So one or two watts below 21W, or lower, is where the MJ1 (or the NCR18650GA) gradually starts to become the better choice IMO, typically, if the vaping time is your primary concern, but then, I guess that would also imply you can't actually make it through the day vaping at 20W despite having more than 7Wh on tap, which is a lot of Wh to go through for a 20W vaper I think, albeit certainly not impossible to do.

EDIT: For reference, at 7A down to 3.2V the Sony VTC6 delivers 9Wh.

 

[mimöschen]

The only reason to choose either the LG MJ1 or Sanyo NCR18650GA for sub 7A vaping might be the price. If you can get them significantly cheaper than the 30Q or VTC6, they might be worth a look.
Otherwise the latter are a much better choice.

 

[dripster]

The only reason to choose either the LG MJ1 or Sanyo NCR18650GA for sub 7A vaping might be the price. If you can get them significantly cheaper than the 30Q or VTC6, they might be worth a look.
Otherwise the latter are a much better choice.

A very low wattage vaper can still get some more vaping time from the NCR18650GA when compared to the VTC6 or the 30Q, though...

 

[mimöschen]

But not noticeably so. Even at those low powerlevels, the differences in Wh are negligible.
The MJ1 and GA are running near their respective max ampdraw however, so the 30Q and VTC6 will take the lead after a few recharge cycles.

 

[Mikes1992]

@Mikes1992 – curious to know where are you getting the Watt Hour ratings for the MJ1 and VTC5? Both of these cells were some of Mooch’s earlier tests where he did not provide such data.

Also suspicious of the 7.5Wh at 10 amps for the MJ1. Looking at Mooch’s test for this cell, the 10 amp plot is pretty poor especially compared to the 30Q which is rated as 7.5Wh @ 10amps down to 3.2 volts

I took the data from Mooch's graph, I took the figure at 3.2v which was ~2,150mah and the average voltage was 3.5v... I just looked again and my 7.5wh figure was actually based on the 5a discharge and not 10a. At 10a the cell actually hits 3.2v at 1,400mah with an average voltage of 3.4v, which is 4.76wh. That's just shockingly bad!

 

[dripster]

But not noticeably so. Even at those low powerlevels, the differences in Wh are negligible.
The MJ1 and GA are running near their respective max ampdraw however, so the 30Q and VTC6 will take the lead after a few recharge cycles.

At 3A you aren't running anywhere close to the CDR of the Panasonic/Sanyo NCR18650GA, and, versus the Sony VTC6 the difference in Wh at 3A down to 3.2V is about 6.5% so not a huge impovement of course, but is it negligible? IMO it all simply depends on your own personal definition of the term "negligible"... and if you're not going over 8.5W (I know at least one person who doesn't) it still might happen that you can't find a regulated mod with features you like excepting only a dual battery one so that would effectively increase the differene to about 18.5% difference. So actually it depends.

 

[mimöschen]

Sure. You can always feign situations where even a 1908 Model T is superior to a 2017 Ford Fiesta. But only under extremely unusual circumstances.
Same applies here.

 

[dripster]

Sure. You can always feign situations where even a 1908 Model T is superior to a 2017 Ford Fiesta. But only under extremely unusual circumstances.
Same applies here.

Vapers who vape at under 8.5W are still vapers, unusual or not unusual. And, whether you like it or not, these batteries are on Mooch's list of recommended batteries. The final thing that matters is, you just don't know when you've lost an argument. Do you?

 

[Mikes1992]

Vapers who vape at under 8.5W are still vapers, unusual or not unusual. And, whether you like it or not, these batteries are on Mooch's list of recommended batteries. The final thing that matters is, you just don't know when you've lost an argument. Do you?

I vape at 6-8w in bed! I use my old Vapros spinner ego pen in bed with 18mg juice, I'm not a big fan of filling my house with smoke/vapour. During the day though I'm using my xpriv at 45w or my aegis solo at 30w with 4.5mg juice (I usually have two different flavours and just swap what I'm using if I fancy something different).

 

[dripster]

I vape at 6-8w in bed! I use my old Vapros spinner ego pen in bed with 18mg juice, I'm not a big fan of filling my house with smoke/vapour. During the day though I'm using my xpriv at 45w or my aegis solo at 30w with 4.5mg juice (I usually have two different flavours and just swap what I'm using if I fancy something different).

I'm on the opposite side of the spectrum. Anything too far below 90W just fails to make me tick, and, for me, it's all about using complex coil builds and mech mods of various many types and sizes so the "feel" of the vape is equally as important to me as the warmth, the density, and flavour, but I hate getting more than just a tiny little bit of throat hit, and, I hate a truly hot vape despite I often vape at over 200W for flavour, which many think is impossible to achieve, when the reality is that it is very much possible (and trivial to me).