When it comes to devices where does the true responsibility for safety rest

[stylemessiah]

The problem is that as long as theres the Darwin Awards, people will keep figuring out ways to enter...

And think about it in this way, in almost any other industry you can think of they go out of their way to make products ever safer, so why is vaping (and pretty much specifically mod makers) trending the opposite?

It could be argued that a certain style of vaper is creating the market in which these devices are being designed and marketed to, and thats all well and good as that style of vaper may have more than 5 minutes of battery safety under his belt, but the problem is that products also available to Joe Bloggs who doesnt have even 10 seconds of battery safety under his belt, not interested in learning about it, and assumes that when he pulls a mod from its packaging its as safe as safe can be, with the manufacturer not overriding other manufacturers (battery makers) best and tested specs for safety of their side of the equation....

 

[Ca Ike]

I find it funny that some of you in this thread claim the oEM should take the responsibility to make their products safe and provide good warnings, instructions, specifics on batteries other then just "30 amp" and once that is done then it's on the user.

We have two companies here in the us that take that stance very seriously by making products that go as far as providing a huge margin for error ( mostly by building in idiot proofing) and even including a recommended battery. Yet some of you posting in this thread that this is what an oEM should do, have bashed these companies for doing exactly what you say they should do.

You guys on one hand want the unsafe functionality but on the other demand it be safe. That just doesn't follow any logic at all.

 

[KenD]

Are that many adults really ignorant of the dangers associated with high discharge lithium batteries?

Yes, yes they are. I know I was, and the only reason I know better nowadays is because I'm a hobbyist.

Sent from my M7_PLUS using Tapatalk

 

[Jman8]

My perspective: Users are (clearly) ultimately responsible.

If manufacturer/vendor (M/V) makes a product that inadvertently harms the buyer, then it is buyer's responsibility to understand this before they purchase. I recognize that all buyers will not likely take on that responsibility, but that doesn't fall back then on the manufacturer, in the ultimate way. It is instead along lines of 'great customer service' if the vendor/manufacturer chooses to share that responsibility in whatever way works for the M/V.

If a product does harm the buyer, then it ought to be shown (legally) that beyond reasonable doubt, there was intention by M/V to harm the buyer. I realize that legal liability might state otherwise (probably does), but just providing my perspective.

In the information age, I find it very challenging to understand how a buyer could not take on the responsibility that falls on them, and get harmed by a product. The only way(s) that make sense to me is for early adopters (who routinely strike me as different breed of consumers) or people that are itching to find something wrong/irresponsible about a product. I actually think a lot of people (perhaps myself at times) are in the second category. I think it provides an out for consumers and is how legal liability essentially works in the world today. Cause the flip side to the legal item in previous paragraph is that defense of M/V would have to show beyond reasonably doubt that I / consumer should've known better (or some nonsense like that).

As long as (harsh) regulations and restrictions on M/V are accepted in an otherwise free market, then I think consumers will always be able to skirt the ultimately responsibility that falls on them, when it comes to legal view of responsibility / liability. But really consumer (or demand side) is the one choosing to use the product. A lot of how this issue shows up to me is similar to idea of peer pressure among minors. If something goes bad with using the product, user can always point to someone else as to reason why they chose to use the product (in way they did) and hope no one (wise) is paying attention to the diversion from actual responsibility.

Answer to thread's title question: Users are truly responsible for their safety when choosing to use a device.

 

[0blong]

Its the user's fault. I can buy an inaccurate 200W mega box with 3 18650s fairly cheap. I can't buy a VV box even with 2 batteries, at least not one that will step down below 5 dummy units (watts).

I had more choice last year than this year. This arms race can blow up in their faces (kekek) for all I care.

 

[zoiDman]

Yes, yes they are. I know I was, and the only reason I know better nowadays is because I'm a hobbyist.

Sent from my M7_PLUS using Tapatalk

Completely Agree.

And I would venture to say that there are Far More who know Very Little/Anything about Ohms Law or Amp Limits than there are who do.

Here is a thread I saw today which is a Good Example. Something that I Don't think is all that Uncommon among Vaper's ...

Let me preface this by saying: I don't understand the technical aspects of vaping, and I really don't want to know any more than is necessary to make it enjoyable. I understand this is a passion and a hobby for some - that's great, and I hope you'll use the knowledge you've acquired in your passion to give me second grade explanation. I just want to vape.

I used VV eGo batteries for the last four years (eGo C Twist) with Vision vivi nova mini clearomizers (or similar.) This setup was perfectly good for me, but they've become unreliable as they've dwindled in popularity.

With the help of kind ECF members, I went with a recommended new set up of:
Joye eVic-VTC mini 60W and Uwell Crown.

There is a TON of settings. I don't understand the relationship between them, or where to even begin to find a good setting. Guessing isn't getting me anything but a sore throat and headache.

Which mode? Temp control, power, bypass? In each, what is the relationship between temp, power, coil, and amp?

Help? Please? Even just a starting point ...

P.S. I've watched a couple videos (also sent to me by a kind forum member) and I am no closer to understanding. There seems to be an assumed basic knowledge level which I don't possess. The videos also show a slightly different screen (options) than mine came with.

I'm not putting this Individual down. And there is Nothing wrong with Her. As She puts it, She just wants to Vape.

 

[mauricem00]

First and foremost, as an adult, YOU are the only one responsible for your own safety.

Depending on others to look out for you is not the sign of a responsible adult, that's what children do.

You are responsible for educating yourself before buying and using any tool or device.

If you aren't acting responsibly you can get hurt.


Manufacturers have a responsibility to manufacture a quality product, and to be honest in advertising.
If they don't, they lose customers.

As adults we cannot ignore our responsibility to ourselves and place that burden on a company selling items.
No one forces anyone to buy gear.

unfortunately a lot of companies do not disclose the risk associated with their products and that information can be hard to find for an untrained consumer. many people do not know where to find information on the chemicals used in our juices and many companies don't disclose whats in those juices. some companies do provide warnings about the equipment they sell but many do not. the average consumer must be assumed to be of average intelligence with no special knowledge and if a company is selling equipment or material that requires special knowledge to be used safely that company has an obligation to provide that information. the average consumer can not buy many things that are considered dangerous but they can buy vaping equipment that pushes the limits of the components used and may be doing so without knowing this. this places them and others around them at risk. if the industry does not self regulate then the government will do it for us.

 

[Canadian_Vaper]

With the rise of the popularity in vaping and internet sales I think all manufacturers and even makers of clones should include some sort of standard safety warning, just a slip of paper say says WARNING check out this link on vaping safety if you are not familiar with this device or vaping. http://www.vapingsafety.vape/thisdevice

 

[Bad Ninja]

unfortunately a lot of companies do not disclose the risk associated with their products and that information can be hard to find for an untrained consumer. many people do not know where to find information on the chemicals used in our juices and many companies don't disclose whats in those juices. some companies do provide warnings about the equipment they sell but many do not. the average consumer must be assumed to be of average intelligence with no special knowledge and if a company is selling equipment or material that requires special knowledge to be used safely that company has an obligation to provide that information. the average consumer can not buy many things that are considered dangerous but they can buy vaping equipment that pushes the limits of the components used and may be doing so without knowing this. this places them and others around them at risk. if the industry does not self regulate then the government will do it for us.

Battery/mod safety:
The information isnt hard to find, one just has to make an effort.
Tens of thousands of people have done it.
I cannot make excuses for grown adults that are too lazy to educate themselves.



As far as juice companies go, there have been strict FDA labeling regulations in place for all consumable goods for decades, but most juice companies don't follow them, and it will soon bite them in the .....

 

[mauricem00]

zioD, not remotely thinking about busting chops, but should anyone even think about reloading without educating themselves first.

We all welcome new members to the site and then point them to Steam Engine, Mooches or Baditude's blog and Susan posts at least a dozen great links on safety. Most of us promote education. Some disregard it, some think they don't need it and then weeks later they are the same one's that ask if a .1 ohm coil is safe in a device. Let's just say they throw an Efest in it and the battery vents.

Who's responsibility is it for the failure.

There are 1000 analogies I can use and they all come back to the same place. Personally responsibility, education and self accountability.

Are manufacturers just giving their customers what they are asking for assuming they are responsible and educated? Or is it that they really don't care?

unfortunately many companies are only interested in making a profit.their only consideration for consumers is the legal liability they may incur is someone is injured and even that is subject to a cost/benefit judgement. if it's cheaper to pay damages that to fix a flaw with the product than the flaw does not get fixed. it gets hidden until someone gets hurt and hires a lawyer. I don't trust government but I trust corporations even less. remember that most vapers don't use this site and are not aware of the risk talked about here and many B&Ms do not try to educate their customers or even determine what products would be appropriate for a given customer

 

[Bad Ninja]

unfortunately many companies are only interested in making a profit.their only consideration for consumers is the legal liability they may incur is someone is injured and even that is subject to a cost/benefit judgement. if it's cheaper to pay damages that to fix a flaw with the product than the flaw does not get fixed. it gets hidden until someone gets hurt and hires a lawyer. I don't trust government but I trust corporations even less. remember that most vapers don't use this site and are not aware of the risk talked about here and many B&Ms do not try to educate their customers or even determine what products would be appropriate for a given customer

Any company or business has only one objective and that is to make legal profit. That's all they do.
That's why they are called businesses.
Charities do charity, businesses make profit.
Expecting otherwise is incorrect.

 

[mauricem00]

Battery/mod safety:
The information isnt hard to find, one just has to make an effort.
Tens of thousands of people have done it.
I cannot make excuses for grown adults that are too lazy to educate themselves.



As far as juice companies go, there have been strict FDA labeling regulations in place for all consumable goods for decades, but most juice companies don't follow them, and it will soon bite them in the .....

we use many products and just assume that they are safe.I do not research every item that I buy. I simply do not have the time to do that.and their is a lot of false or misleading information on batteries found on the internet. a local B&M is selling 25Rs as 60amp batteries and a consumer has no reason to question that claim. we trust companies to act responsibly.the people on this site represent a small percentage of vapors. many people have busy lives and do not have time to hang out in chat rooms.and a dangerouse product may pose a threat to others and not just the user

 

[Bad Ninja]

we use many products and just assume that they are safe.I do not research every item that I buy. I simply do not have the time to do that.and their is a lot of false or misleading information on batteries found on the internet. a local B&M is selling 25Rs as 60amp batteries and a consumer has no reason to question that claim. we trust companies to act responsibly.the people on this site represent a small percentage of vapors. many people have busy lives and do not have time to hang out in chat rooms.and a dangerouse product may pose a threat to others and not just the user

I understand that, however that is on you. It's not a companies fault you don't have time to do a cursory bit of research before sticking a 20 amp battery in your mouth to get your fix.

Let's stay in context, and own up to our bad choices rather than trying to justify them by placing liability on someone else.

 

[mauricem00]

Any company or business has only one objective and that is to make legal profit. That's all they do.
That's why they are called businesses.
Charities do charity, businesses make profit.
Expecting otherwise is incorrect.

that is why we need laws and government regulations to limit the harm they cause in the name of profits.the banks were making a legal profit when they collapsed our economy and cause serious harm to many Americans.enjoying the benefits of membership in a society carries a price.acting in a manner that does not harm or exploit others is not charity.it is a social obligation.

 

[Bad Ninja]

that is why we need laws and government regulations to limit the harm they cause in the name of profits.the banks were making a legal profit when they collapsed our economy and cause serious harm to many Americans.enjoying the benefits of membership in a society carries a price.acting in a manner that does not harm or exploit others is not charity.it is a social obligation.

The last thing we need is more laws.

How about just enforcing the ones we have?

Again let's stay in context. Vaping.


The banks broke lots of laws, our corrupt government just chose not to enforce them.
More laws wouldn't matter as they wouldn't enforce them either.

 

[mauricem00]

we are getting a little too far off context here. we clearly have opposing political views but that has nothing to do with vaping.so I will let you have the last word on this matter

 

[Bad Ninja]

we are getting a little too far off context here. we clearly have opposing political views but that has nothing to do with vaping.so I will let you have the last word on this matter

No politics, I'm just old school and direct.
My point is simple.
As long as a company is honest in their advertising, and offers a quality product, the user is responsible for any problems coming from improper use of said product.
Batteries, flashlights, mods, hammers....guns....

We don't need a huge disclaimer for every possible stupid scenarios.

If the pool is over your head, either learn to swim, or stay out of it.


In general:
Be proud of your ability to acquire information and make logical decisions, and exercise that skill as often as you can.
Never be to busy to think for yourself.
Learn new stuff daily, and feed your mind.
Your world will be better for your efforts.

 

[zoiDman]

Any company or business has only one objective and that is to make legal profit. That's all they do.
That's why they are called businesses.
Charities do charity, businesses make profit.
Expecting otherwise is incorrect.

The World just Isn't this Black & White.

Companies are like Individuals. Some will put Profits over Anything Else. And Some Won't.

Just like there are Companies who will Contribute to CASAA, or the Red Cross, or to some Local Fund Raising. And there are some that Won't.

 

[Canadian_Vaper]

The problem is ninja, these people that don't look up safety could ruin it for us all, it is up to the industry to at least warn them to protect me and you from unjust laws...

A hammer can't explode in my face, well maybe with some C4 ^__^

 

[Bad Ninja]

The World just Isn't this Black & White.

Companies are like Individuals. Some will put Profits over Anything Else. And Some Won't.

Just like there are Companies who will Contribute to CASAA, or the Red Cross, or to some Local Fund Raising. And there are some that Won't.

Yes it is.
Business 101.
The sole purpose of all businesses is to generate profit. That is the only reason to form a corporation.

That's it.

Donations to non profits or charities from corporations are tax deductible, and increase a positive image in the public thus generating more profit.

It's free advertising paid for with tax dollars they would normally pay to the IRS.
If not, they wouldn't do it.