When it comes to devices where does the true responsibility for safety rest

[Plumes.91]

It's the responsibility of the manufacturer to make their devices as safe as they can possibly make them, no-matter the price or the difficulty, they MUST do EVERYTHING they can to make the device as safe as they humanly can. After that, eit is up-to both the manufacturer AND the business selling the device, to do the BEST that they HUMANLY CAN, to pass-on KNOWLEDGE to their customers, about HOW to use the device as safely as the consumer possibly can use the device. This means pamphlets included in the box, this means battery safety and vape-safety information and/or warnings given in-person at brick and mortars, given in pamphlet form from the dealer, given ON the product-page on the sales website.... and after THIS responsibility is fulfilled... THEN, I believe, it is up to each and every individual vaper to educate themselves on the dangers of rechargeable batteries, it is up to each individual vaper to read-up on battery safety, mod-safety, unprotected mod-safety, how to build safely, how to VAPE SAFELY. Warnings and knowledge MUST be handed to the buyer/vaper.. after that, each vaper MUST educate themselves and they MUST do their BEST to VAPE SAFELY! If they FAIL to educate themselves & they FAIL to VAPE SAFELY, then it is the VAPER'S FAULT when the mod knocks out their 2 front teeth, burns their lips off, and now they have to walk around with an anus skin skin graft on their right cheek. Cuz' aint nobody wants that. Trrrust mee.....

Don't be a ....-head, and LEARN TO VAPE SAFELY!

 

[Lessifer]

I don't know if there is a way to have the discussion and avoid the legal reality or even what I accept as legal liability. But if I were going to have that discussion with anyone, I'm glad it be with you. (Awwwww)

I see truly defective as on no one, or similar to 'act of God.' If it is actually on the manufacturer, then I would think it somewhat foolish to think they'll ever get it right and/or foolish of me to return to them and think it'll be better next time. If it is highly successful company, and I'm one of very few to have defective product, I'm thinking they'll gladly reimburse, make sure I'm happy and they maintain their successful image. If they did not, it would be disappointing. But honestly, my level of disappointment would be subjective and could even be different for me depending on a whole lot of factors for me at the time I realize I just determined this is defective product. Cost of the product would matter. A defective clearo is probably going to be treated differently than defective automobile I just purchased 2 weeks ago.

With responsibility, I don't know how it could be anyone's intention. Was the intention to make a defective product? If yes, is that what we mean by defective? If not, then I don't see how without the intention for the product to turn out that way, it is manufacturer's responsibility. Here then is where 'fault' enters picture. Surely not my fault it is defective and way I see it is not manufacturer's fault. I very much hope they'll reimburse me, but I don't expect it. Well for sure in a mandatory way, I don't expect it. Again, if I did, then I would not be willing to go back to them even if they promised they'd get it right the next time. The best I would think they could then hope for is I get 2 (or more) products from them and I pay for only one. That strikes me as irresponsible scenario on some level, especially as I'm the one wanting the product. I'd rather just go with M/V that has working product or product that works for me. I also think it quite possible that company would face scenario of I pay for nothing and they keep sending me product(s) until I get one that works. If I came at this from angle of you (company) are 100% responsible for defective product, I think I could swindle some companies under that latter scenario, and feel righteous in doing so.

I dunno exactly the righteous path for all this. Because I understand the legal game (at least a little bit), I'll play that card if I think it suits me. But I'll know when I go that route it's just a game I'm playing and isn't how I look at true responsibility.

I don't think a company has to have intent for a product to be defective, for them to be responsible for its defectiveness.

Some may depend on the type of defect. If it's a defect of the manufacturing process, definitely the manufacturer is responsible. If it's a defective component, then still probably responsible as they should have adequate quality control. A defect in the design, absolutely responsible, IF the defect causes a problem through intended use.

This would be different if it were a trade exchange through two individuals, but a business that is manufacturing something and selling it to others does have a responsibility for that product.

 

[Lessifer]

It's the responsibility of the manufacturer to make their devices as safe as they can possibly make them, no-matter the price or the difficulty, they MUST do EVERYTHING they can to make the device as safe as they humanly can.

I think I understand your reasoning behind this statement, but I wholeheartedly disagree. If you actually believe this, then you are asking for a future of pre-filled, sealed atomizers on fixed voltage batteries with proprietary charging connections, using a single ratio of pg/vg and a predetermined safe level of nicotine.

 

[Plumes.91]

I am thinking, the devices we WANT, the devices and accessories that we KNOW & ENJOY TODAY. I'm not talking about going as-far as ceasing the manufacture of an RDA because it can be unsafe in the hands of an uneducated rebuilder. I am asking that each manufacturer make the devices we all know, want, & <3, as safe as they possibly can.

 

[Bad Ninja]

It's the responsibility of the manufacturer to make their devices as safe as they can possibly make them, no-matter the price or the difficulty, they MUST do EVERYTHING they can to make the device as safe as they humanly can. After that, eit is up-to both the manufacturer AND the business selling the device, to do the BEST that they HUMANLY CAN, to pass-on KNOWLEDGE to their customers, about HOW to use the device as safely as the consumer possibly can use the device. This means pamphlets included in the box, this means battery safety and vape-safety information and/or warnings given in-person at brick and mortars, given in pamphlet form from the dealer, given ON the product-page on the sales website.... and after THIS responsibility is fulfilled... THEN, I believe, it is up to each and every individual vaper to educate themselves on the dangers of rechargeable batteries, it is up to each individual vaper to read-up on battery safety, mod-safety, unprotected mod-safety, how to build safely, how to VAPE SAFELY. Warnings and knowledge MUST be handed to the buyer/vaper.. after that, each vaper MUST educate themselves and they MUST do their BEST to VAPE SAFELY! If they FAIL to educate themselves & they FAIL to VAPE SAFELY, then it is the VAPER'S FAULT when the mod knocks out their 2 front teeth, burns their lips off, and now they have to walk around with an anus skin skin graft on their right cheek. Cuz' aint nobody wants that. Trrrust mee.....

Don't be a ....-head, and LEARN TO VAPE SAFELY!

It would be easier for manufactures to include a waiver and for the retailer to have the buyer sign it.
Which I would agree with.

"Warning! This device is for advanced users only! Improper use can cause bodily harm or death! Li-on batteries can explode!
Buyer assumes liability for any injuries sustained while using this product.
Use at you own risk!"

"Sign here before buying"

Serve and volley.

 

[suprtrkr]

The manufacturer has a responsibility to ensure their product is well built with quality materials, and to specify the safe regimen where the equipment may be used. Beyond that, using the equipment within appropriate safety parameters is, IMHO, the responsibility of the user.

 

[suprtrkr]

I am thinking, the devices we WANT, the devices and accessories that we KNOW & ENJOY TODAY. I'm not talking about going as-far as ceasing the manufacture of an RDA because it can be unsafe in the hands of an uneducated rebuilder. I am asking that each manufacturer make the devices we all know, want, & <3, as safe as they possibly can.

I take your point, Plumes, but how? What more do you want they are not currently doing? You can make a perfect RTA, but if a builder puts a .05Ω coil in it and mounts it on a mech mod with a 5 amp battery, it's gonna blow up and it won't have anything to do with the tank or its quality of manufacture. How much responsibility should a tank manufacturer bear under those circumstances? Shall we require all RTAs to be built by licensed tank builders with liability insurance? How does this heal the problem of an idiot doing something with the equipment it's not designed for? I mean, bulldozers are great for pushing dirt around, but they're not too good as boats because they don't float. To give a specific example, I hate the faux hybrid tube mods like the SMPL and The Rig, etc. I wouldn't have one in the house. If we were going to ban or regulate vaping equipment, those would be my first choice because they are inherently unsafe by design. That said, they can be used safely by a knowledgeable user, given good batteries, careful inspection at each assembly, and a good atty with a well protruding center pin; and I am too libertarian minded to try to tell people what to do. In my world, if somebody does something stupid and blows themselves up, I write it off to Darwin and assume the planet is a nicer (and safer) place to live. That's harsh, perhaps, but I am not prepared to curtail liberty sufficiently to change it and, again IMO, it wouldn't work if I were.

 

[Canadian_Vaper]

A lot of posts about the safety of these devices but nobody suggesting how to make them safer...maybe double walled mechs and mods designed to vent in a particular way? hell have it vent through a tube into a fireproof balloon-a-mabob

 

[Bad Ninja]

The manufacturer has a responsibility to ensure their product is well built with quality materials, and to specify the safe regimen where the equipment may be used. Beyond that, using the equipment within appropriate safety parameters is, IMHO, the responsibility of the user.

The market sorts itself out.
Make a crappy product and you won't last long.
Customers IMHO seem to want to buy products that actually work.
People are silly like that.

 

[suprtrkr]

The market sorts itself out.
Make a crappy product and you won't last long.
Customers IMHO seem to want to buy products that actually work.
People are silly like that.

I might mention that's also how it's supposed to work

 

[suprtrkr]

A lot of posts about the safety of these devices but nobody suggesting how to make them safer...maybe double walled mechs and mods designed to vent in a particular way? hell have it vent through a tube into a fireproof balloon-a-mabob

Good point. Gus mods, for example, has a fuse in some of their buttons. It's one of the big reasons I haven't bought one. Those who like the idea are free to buy one. But I wouldn't care to see them mandated and, if they were, I'd get busy manufacturing a copper slug to bridge the fuse

 

[Racehorse]

the manufacturers have a responsibility.
The end user has a responsibility.
Just like cars and power tools.

or small appliances.

I don't place metal forks/knives into my microwave. I know not to "super-heat" water in there, as it can explode as soon as you drop a spoon or even a teabag into the final heated water.

But, microwave should work on settings provided, i.e, "reheat pizza" should do just that, not nuke it beyond recognition, right?

In car, brakes should work as designed, airbags too, etc. Engine runs if correct gas is put in, keep oil level correct, etc.

When you start to ask a device to do more than it was designed to do and/or don't give it what it needs to do job (according to user manual) is when trouble begins.

Hard to pin down sometimes.

However, CONSUMER devices usually made way more easy to use, and safer, than high tech stuff. That is as it should be.
i.e. they need to be safer than let's say some device used on space station freedom where only engineers/highly trained astronauts are going to use items.

 

[Bad Ninja]

o
However, CONSUMER devices usually made way more easy to use, and safer, than high tech stuff. That is as it should be.
i.e. they need to be safer than let's say some device used on space station freedom where only engineers/highly trained astronauts are going to use items.

It's that way in the vape scene.
Beginner gear with regulated mods and prebuilt coils are relatively safe and easy to use.

High end gear like mechanical mods are not designed for the average consumer. They are meant for advanced users that understand the equipment and how to use it safely.

The problem is many vapers cannot accept that they are not informed enough to safely use advanced gear.

 

[Lessifer]

A lot of posts about the safety of these devices but nobody suggesting how to make them safer...maybe double walled mechs and mods designed to vent in a particular way? hell have it vent through a tube into a fireproof balloon-a-mabob

Good point. Gus mods, for example, has a fuse in some of their buttons. It's one of the big reasons I haven't bought one. Those who like the idea are free to buy one. But I wouldn't care to see them mandated and, if they were, I'd get busy manufacturing a copper slug to bridge the fuse

One man's safety feature is another man's deal breaking limitation.

It's kind of like saying how do we make a safer cup, how do we prevent someone from pouring bleach into their cup and drinking it? Yes, I know that is an oversimplification.

As for venting batteries... Are we even positive it is the venting gasses that cause the boom? I watched a video yesterday of a battery going into thermal runaway(which actually took 2 minutes from dead short to visible gas venting) and yes, it released gas for a couple of minutes but at the end there was a noticeable pop of the batteries top and then an explosion/flash of the battery. Every time I've seen the aftermath, there is an expanded solid debris that must be the internals of the battery. Has anyone actually done an experiment of venting a battery in a mod that does/does not have "adequate" venting?

 

[suprtrkr]

One man's safety feature is another man's deal breaking limitation.

It's kind of like saying how do we make a safer cup, how do we prevent someone from pouring bleach into their cup and drinking it? Yes, I know that is an oversimplification.

As for venting batteries... Are we even positive it is the venting gasses that cause the boom? I watched a video yesterday of a battery going into thermal runaway(which actually took 2 minutes from dead short to visible gas venting) and yes, it released gas for a couple of minutes but at the end there was a noticeable pop of the batteries top and then an explosion/flash of the battery. Every time I've seen the aftermath, there is an expanded solid debris that must be the internals of the battery. Has anyone actually done an experiment of venting a battery in a mod that does/does not have "adequate" venting?

Paging @Mooch Here's a question I can not answer.

 

[Canadian_Vaper]

As for venting batteries... Are we even positive it is the venting gasses that cause the boom? I watched a video yesterday of a battery going into thermal runaway(which actually took 2 minutes from dead short to visible gas venting)

Different battery chemistries vent differently, IMR/ICR etc.

IMR is more gassy/liquid
ICR tends to be more violent (icr is one of the most unsafe lithium's if used improperly of course)

With mod vents it makes it a bit less explosive that's all.

Just an example don't do this lol
Put a small firecracker on an open hand light it off and it may burn a bit.
Put that same small firecracker in a closed fist and fingers are missing..

 

[suprtrkr]

Different battery chemistries vent differently, IMR/ICR etc.

IMR is more gassy/liquid
ICR tends to be more violent (icr is one of the most unsafe lithium's if used improperly of course)

With mod vents it makes it a bit less explosive that's all.

Just an example don't do this lol
Put a small firecracker on an open hand light it off and it may burn a bit.
Put that same small firecracker in a closed fist and fingers are missing..

Concur. Ask me, it is the confinement of vent gasses that is dangerous. But I don't know that.

 

[Racehorse]

High end gear like mechanical mods are not designed for the average consumer. They are meant for advanced users that understand the equipment and how to use it safely.

Well we've all read enough stories of newbies walking into vape shops and walking out with "advanced user gear".

The problem is many vapers cannot accept that they are not informed enough to safely use advanced gear.

In above example, they think they are getting professional advice from someone who owns and operates a vaping store. (one might assume that is going to happen, I mean, I would).

When I want to buy stuff I usually have an expectation that the people I'm interfacing with, in a specialty store, know a little bit about their products and use? I mean, if I didn't buy it at some roadside yard sale, etc.

 

[Lessifer]

Different battery chemistries vent differently, IMR/ICR etc.

IMR is more gassy/liquid
ICR tends to be more violent (icr is one of the most unsafe lithium's if used improperly of course)

With mod vents it makes it a bit less explosive that's all.

Just an example don't do this lol
Put a small firecracker on an open hand light it off and it may burn a bit.
Put that same small firecracker in a closed fist and fingers are missing..

I thought one was more prone to flame, however, I'm thinking of the physics of battery design itself.

You have a tube sealed on one end, the battery chemistry and whatnot inside, and then on the other end you have a plug that becomes the positive. Yes, they start venting gas and that gas building up is dangerous. However, they also seem to eventually blow apart as the plug gets pushed out. With your open/closed fist analogy, there is almost always a closed fist around the battery in a mod, at least on the positive and negative ends, otherwise you would have battery rattle.

If you snug up a battery inside a mod, that's a pretty tight enclosure on the two directions that seem to be most important. I'm fairly certain a 2mm split second expansion in the length of the battery would be enough to blow the button end off of most mods.

I could be wrong though, I haven't looked into any of it. Just thoughts after watching the video.

 

[Bad Ninja]

Well we've all read enough stories of newbies walking into vape shops and walking out with "advanced user gear".



In above example, they think they are getting professional advice from someone who owns and operates a vaping store. (one might assume that is going to happen, I mean, I would).

When I want to buy stuff I usually have an expectation that the people I'm interfacing with, in a specialty store, know a little bit about their products and use? I mean, if I didn't buy it at some roadside yard sale, etc.

Personally I'm not a fan of B&M vape shops and this is one of the many many reasons.
I don't trust a minimum wage counter clerk to give me correct change much less advice on my vape.

I know there are some very good shops out there, but most aren't worth entering.
It's sad but true.
You just can't count on a B&M to give good advice these days.