When it comes to devices where does the true responsibility for safety rest

[zoiDman]

The mod isn't the problem.
The user is.



Ahh I thought so.

You are confusing responsibility with "legal liability".

Totally different, though my stance is roughly the same, however legally, the liability can stop with something as simple as "sold as is, use at your own risk".

The thing is, you have to be responsible for your own safety.
If not you will eventually get hurt.
You may not be able to sue afterwards so worrying about who's liable would be moot.

It better to be use common sense and safe than to count on a lawyer.

I'm Not confusing Liability with Responsibility.

I feel that OEM's have a shared Responsibility to make Products that Minimize the Chances of a User Injuring themselves. Just as I feel Sellers do Also. And they Share this Responsibility with Users knowing how to Use their Product.

Saying it is All on the User isn't Viable. And it doesn't make for a Market of Better Product.

 

[zoiDman]

I have no idea why they would not include the proper information. I'm not even positive that they don't. I do know that just because a warning exists, does not mean the user will read and adhere to it.

If the industry moves forward, I do expect more detailed user warnings and instruction manuals in the future. It only makes sense, for liability issues.

Unless of course someone uses all of this as justification for banning mods with replaceable batteries and/or interchangeable atomizers.

Then we'll be back to the days of home built mods, and things will be even less safe.

Awh but here is the Thing.

When a OEM/Seller provides Adequate Warnings and Detailed Instructions, and their Product Isn't Blatantly Unsafe, then they have Fulfilled their Responsibility. And Now I can Side with those who say the Responsibility rests with the User.

Saying something is "For Advanced Users Only" doesn't go far enough. Tell the User what they Need to Know. If a Atomizer Pin needs to Protrude from the 510 Thread, or if it should Only use Coil A, then Tell the User.

This is the Responsibility of the OEM/Seller.

 

[Marc411]

But zoiD aren't the consumers pushing the market. A couple years ago 30 watts was the best you could get from a device and then the damn broke. One these very forums so many just ask for more power, when it was forty watts it wasn't enough. Hell Evolv said they would never produce a 200 watt device and look what happened.

Do we bare the responsibility for the power race? Personally I can't even imagine vaping at 200W, hell I've very rarely vape over 40 watts. But you'll find new members here and they are buying their first or second device and they are asking what the best 200W device is they can buy.

Dual cell shouldn't (or can't) even be used at 200W continuous. And the push for power has moved us to LIPO's. The consumer has pushed for the power and the OEM is simply supplying what the consumer is asking for in high power devices.

I just grabbed a 100W Stout that I'm sure everyone knows runs on a 26650. I bought it for the form factor and battery life knowing that the batteries are not built for a 100W CDR. There are probably 100's of dual 150+ devices available these days.

Why?

 

[Bad Ninja]

I'm Not confusing Liability with Responsibility.

I feel that OEM's have a shared Responsibility to make Products that Minimize the Chances of a User Injuring themselves. Just as I feel Sellers do Also. And they Share this Responsibility with Users knowing how to Use their Product.

Saying it is All on the User isn't Viable. And it doesn't make for a Market of Better Product.

So you are saying it's on Sony, LG and samsung, right?
The mods don't go come apart unless the battery fails.

(I'm actually all for going after re wrappers like Efest for false/misleading Specs).

 

[Marc411]

(I'm actually all for going after re wrappers like Efest for false/misleading Specs).

Anybody that actually is aware of what they are doing would have to agree. Unfortunately a lot of B&M's stock them and they aren't even aware of the issue. I was watching a video with the own of GLV and he was unaware of the Efest issues until he was told during the interview. He immediately said they were pulling them from the shelf.

 

[zoiDman]

So you are saying it's on Sony, LG and samsung, right?
The mods don't go come apart unless the battery fails.

(I'm actually all for going after re wrappers like Efest for false/misleading Specs).

Where do you get this Stuff?

 

[Bad Ninja]

Where do you get this Stuff?

Just trying to follow your logic.

By your own logic,
The manufacturers you should be looking at are the battery manufacturers, whose product can violently fail when used improperly.

In a mod, in a pocket full of quarters, ect.

I'm wondering why you didn't mention holding them liable for the same reasons?

 

[zoiDman]

But zoiD aren't the consumers pushing the market. ...

Consumers push All Markets.

But, If I can make a 200 watt Single 18350 Mod, should I sell it? And do I have No Responsibility if the Mods Melt Down by putting in the Description, "For Advanced Users Only"?

Because an Advanced User would know to Never set a Single 18350 Mod to 200 Watts. Right?

 

[Lessifer]

Awh but here is the Thing.

When a OEM/Seller provides Adequate Warnings and Detailed Instructions, and their Product Isn't Blatantly Unsafe, then they have Fulfilled their Responsibility. And Now I can Side with those who say the Responsibility rests with the User.

Saying something is "For Advanced Users Only" doesn't go far enough. Tell the User what they Need to Know. If a Atomizer Pin needs to Protrude from the 510 Thread, or if it should Only use Coil A, then Tell the User.

This is the Responsibility of the OEM/Seller.

Legally, "For Advanced Users Only" may go far enough, I'm not sure, I'm not a lawyer.

Philosophically I can see where you're coming from and yes, users should be provided with ample warning. Personally, "For Advanced Users Only" is ample warning for me. I am self aware enough to know that if I don't understand what it means to be an "Advanced User" or why this particular equipment would require such a warning, then it is not right for me at my current level. The world does not revolve around users like me though, so yes, it should be spelled out for those who cannot recognize that they are not "Advanced."

 

[Bad Ninja]

Consumers push All Markets.

But, If I can make a 200 watt Single 18350 Mod, should I sell it? And do I have No Responsibility if the Mods Melt Down by putting in the Description, "For Advanced Users Only"?

Because an Advanced User would know to Never set a Single 18350 Mod to 200 Watts. Right?

An advanced user would understand that the mod wouldn't be able to produce anywhere near 200 watts with a single 18350, and that the seller is advertising fraudulent specs.

 

[zoiDman]

Just trying to follow your logic.

By your own logic,
The manufacturers you should be looking at are the battery manufacturers, whose product can violently fail when used improperly.

In a mod, in a pocket full of quarters, ect.

I'm wondering why you didn't mention holding them liable for the same reasons?

Why would you hold the Battery OEM Responsible when it was the Mod or the User of the Mod, that Caused the Problem?

Are you saying that Bullet Manufactures should be Held Responsible if you Shot someone with a Firearm and they are Injured?

 

[zoiDman]

Legally, "For Advanced Users Only" may go far enough, I'm not sure, I'm not a lawyer.

Philosophically I can see where you're coming from and yes, users should be provided with ample warning. Personally, "For Advanced Users Only" is ample warning for me. I am self aware enough to know that if I don't understand what it means to be an "Advanced User" or why this particular equipment would require such a warning, then it is not right for me at my current level. The world does not revolve around users like me though, so yes, it should be spelled out for those who cannot recognize that they are not "Advanced."

Trust me. Saying "For Advanced Users Only" would get you Very Little in a Liability Suit.

It's kinda like building a 7th Story Balcony without a Railing and then putting a Sign up that says... "Watch Your Step".

LOL

 

[Marc411]

Trust me. Saying "For Advanced Users Only" would get you Very Little in a Liability Suit.

It's kinda like building a 7th Story Balcony without a Railing and then putting a Sign up that says... "Watch Your Step".

LOL

LOL.....Nice!

 

[Lessifer]

Trust me. Saying "For Advanced Users Only" would get you Very Little in a Liability Suit.

It's kinda like building a 7th Story Balcony without a Railing and then putting a Sign up that says... "Watch Your Step".

LOL

 

[KenD]

The thing about educating oneself; when some manufacturers recommend using 35 amp batteries, how is a regular consumer to know better? Surfing forums shouldn't be a requirement. You don't spend hours upon hours surfing the web to learn how to properly use a new microwave oven. That information should be in the manual.

Sent from my M7_PLUS using Tapatalk

 

[Woofer]

It's kinda like building a 7th Story Balcony without a Railing and then putting a Sign up that says... "Watch Your Step".

LOL

Is it not obvious?
Perhaps we add a warning that falling 7 stories "could" result in serious injury or death.

That is part of the problem with mods, the danger is not instinctively obvious.
I also believe regardless of how "advanced" someone is, you play with snakes long enough and you will get bitten.

 

[KenD]

That is part of the problem with mods, the danger is not instinctively obvious.
I also believe regardless of how "advanced" someone is, you play with snakes long enough and you will get bitten.

Exactly. The general consumer (at least a new one) would never even suspect that there might be a danger with a device, and thus that there was any need to educate oneself.

Sent from my M7_PLUS using Tapatalk

 

[Bad Ninja]

Why would you hold the Battery OEM Responsible when it was the Mod or the User of the Mod, that Caused the Problem?

Are you saying that Bullet Manufactures should be Held Responsible if you Shot someone with a Firearm and they are Injured?

Bingo.
It's the user that caused the problem.


( disclaimer: I'm gonna use the word ignorant, but not as an insult, or in a derogatory manner)

Are that many adults really ignorant of the dangers associated with high discharge lithium batteries?

 

[stylemessiah]

Bingo.
It's the user that caused the problem.


( disclaimer: I'm gonna use the word ignorant, but not as an insult, or in a derogatory manner)

Are that many adults really ignorant of the dangers associated with high discharge lithium batteries?

Are that many adults really ignorant of the dangers associated with high discharge lithium batteries?

Absolutely yes.

It, like vaping, should be about harm minimisation....

Responsibility rests with the mod makers, the battery vendors, unless theyre being fraudelent post their specs, which the mod makers cant feign ignorance over.

Putting the onus on the end user for responsibility, when the battery makers usually posted their specs, but a mod maker goes against this in a relentless pursuit of watts, should clearly show you where the responsibility really lies.

There was a 7 page outcry when the new SX Mini Q was announced about them marketing a 200W dual battery device, this conversation was had there too. Someone even posted a quote form Yihi about whether 200w was possible : "Yes we have tried it", Tried it doesnt mean you should do it, or that its safe. They made the decision to go against known battery safety and then market a potentially unsafe device to users....

Mod makers, responsible......

 

[Bad Ninja]

Are that many adults really ignorant of the dangers associated with high discharge lithium batteries?

Absolutely yes.

It, like vaping, should be about harm minimisation....

Responsibility rests with the mod makers, the battery vendors, unless theyre being fraudelent post their specs, which the mod makers cant feign ignorance over.

Putting the onus on the end user for responsibility, when the battery makers usually posted their specs, but a mod maker goes against this in a relentless pursuit of watts, should clearly show you where the responsibility really lies.

There was a 7 page outcry when the new SX Mini Q was announced about them marketing a 200W dual battery device, this conversation was had there too. Someone even posted a quote form Yihi about whether 200w was possible : "Yes we have tried it", Tried it doesnt mean you should do it, or that its safe. They made the decision to go against known battery safety and then market a potentially unsafe device to users....

Mod makers, responsible......

Interesting, considering how often we use them and how often they explode.

You do realize more apple laptops have had lithium battery explosions than e cigs, right?

It takes a special kinda person to look at a mechanical mod, stick it in their mouth, and think " what could go wrong?"


As far as the SX mini, honesty in advertising is key.
Sounds like the company is untrustworthy, and scamming their customers.