Why am i not understanding this

[Str8V8ping]

I always thought of making really conentrated EM but thought the max was 10% EM . I saw the redhots recipe on perfumers apprentice site and was wondering if i was reading it right . I was told i was not reading it right .

Flavor Reviews

Now im not really concerned with the recipe .I understand that part . Im talking about making the EM . Is it saying to make a bottle of EM at 27% or not ? Maybe im not reading it correctly but thats the way im seeing it .

Can someone explain if my thinking is right and how to make it .

Now another thing im not getting is why your pouring it into a new bottle and leaving the remaining crystals in the old bottle . Shouldnt you be getting them to all mix in and not stay separated ? Where does the 27% come from if its saying to basically guess at how much crystals your putting in and leaving crystals still in the original bottle ?

 

[martinc]

Sounds like they only trying to achieve a certain amount base sweetened PG really.

But it did boggled my mind too

 

[Spazmelda]

It sounds like they are having you make a super saturated solution of EM (there is too much EM to go into solution so some stays at the bottom of the bottle undissolved). When you let it sit for a few days and pour off the top layer the top layer should (in theory) be completely saturated. Meaning, it would have all the EM that could possibly dissolve in it.

 

[Spazmelda]

It would be like putting sugar in water. A certain amount of water can only dissolve a certain amount of sugar. Once you get beyond that the sugar will not dissolve, and will sink to the bottom.

You can usually get a solvent to hold more solute by heating it up and making sure it is mixed well. If you want to make a solution that has as much of the solute as possible dissolved in it, you would put more solute in the solvent, and when you were sure you had as much of it dissolved as possible, you'd remove the crystals that remained at the bottom.

Here's an explanation (but you can skip the thermodynamics part and it will still make sense): http://preparatorychemistry.com/Bishop_supersaturated.htm

 

[Str8V8ping]

I was always under the impression that only 10% em would be able to hold in the pg solution . I could really benifit on some things with a 27% EM but im just not understanding where the 27% is coming from . Is 27% the max that would be able to saturate in the PG instead of the normal 10% ? SO thats why they are saying to just throw a whole bunch in there and transport the solution into another bottle and it will be 27% ? Its pretty vague where they get the number 27 . I would think to get a specific number like that id have to precisely measure how much crystal to put in and then make sure it all dissolved .I usually like to be precise instead of just making a wide guess and start dumping it in there .If its not accurate then my mixes arnt going to be exact .

Yes you are right in the fact that you need heat to get it to stay but you have to do that even with 10% em .

I do really want to do this since it would be perfect to have in making a bwb malty recipe .

 

[bamsbbq]

i am not sure where they are getting 27%...maybe that is the maximum em that will blend into your base liquid... no idea..just thoughts.

sounds like to me they were trying to make simple syrup but using em... saying this though..simple syrup is usually equal parts water,sugar and then heated until you get syrup

 

[Spazmelda]

I don't think the 27% is referring to the concentration of EM. I think it's some sort of math that is trying to account for the EM + what the EM is dissolved in for the final VG PG concentrations.

Not sure, it's not very clearly written. I have to get my kids ready for school, but if nobody's figured it out by the time they leave I'll look at it again.

 

[Str8V8ping]

i am not sure where they are getting 27%...maybe that is the maximum em that will blend into your base liquid... no idea..just thoughts.

sounds like to me they were trying to make simple syrup but using em... saying this though..simple syrup is usually equal parts water,sugar and then heated until you get syrup

Well that is the normal way of making EM but at a higher concentration than the normal 10% . Em is not exactly a normal sweetener . Its not really sweet when tasting but does give the juice a toasted caramel/cotton candy type sweetness . Its different from sucrolose and stevia which is just straight sugar .

I don't think the 27% is referring to the concentration of EM. I think it's some sort of math that is trying to account for the EM + what the EM is dissolved in for the final VG PG concentrations.

Not sure, it's not very clearly written. I have to get my kids ready for school, but if nobody's figured it out by the time they leave I'll look at it again.

Im not sure what its refering to although it say at the top "to make highly concentrated EM " so it has to be much higher than 10% . From as much as they say to put in the bottle it sounds like higher than 27% concentration considering 10% is only 1/4 teaspoon of crystals . It is worded very vaguely on that part . The actual recipe i understand but im not trying to make the hot cinnamon recipe ,just the highly concentrated EM .

If its sayin to put 1/3 the bottle of crystals then fill the bottle up 3/4 with pg then it would be higher than 1/3 concentration . 1/3 of the full bottle would be 32.5% but then they are only filling the bottle up 3/4 of the way so wouldnt that be around 56% EM .Im not good at math except i know 1/3 of 100 is 32.5 so 1/3 of 75 has to be more . Then there is still crystals left over in the bottle so that would bring the percent back down some .

 

[bamsbbq]

i read somewhere that disolving rate into PG is only 5.5% +/- so no matter how much you put into it thats all its going to disolve into pg... alcohol on the other hand is only 13% i believe...at that is at idea temps of i believe 97*C(200 or so F)...

i am too tired to figure out the math of this but it isnt a 1/3 of a 10ml bottle...the PG wont disolve it ever

 

[AzPlumber]

They way I read it is 27% is a number used on the water line of e juice me up and Ends up at 8.1 % of the recipe.

I think this is just a full saturation of em in pg and the % is not known. 10% of 10ml is .202884 of a tsp.

 

[Tona Aspsusa]

Well that is the normal way of making EM but at a higher concentration than the normal 10% . Em is not exactly a normal sweetener . Its not really sweet when tasting but does give the juice a toasted caramel/cotton candy type sweetness . Its different from sucrolose and stevia which is just straight sugar .

Interesting.
I just yesterday got my small jar of EM crystals so I haven't had time to play around with it yet. But I couldn't resist just opening it, sniffing it and tasting it. To me it smelled very close to caramellised sugar (sugar heated in a saucepan 'til it turns amber-brown, used to make creme caramel/flan or as a glue when making gingerbread houses), somewhere between "strong" and "this is too burnt for the kids to like it" (my grandma used to make a very simple candy of what was left from gluing the gingerbread house together: pour the rest of the caramel on a baking sheet, add almond shavings, let cool and break into pieces - very often this became the "adult candy", because of the strong/bitter burnt taste. Oh no, now I want some!).

But I did think the few EM crystals I put on my tongue tasted sweet - a surprisingly neutral sweet compared to the smell. More simple sirup than cristalline sugar.

I know I have some weird taste-sensitivities, especially when it comes to sucralose (Splenda) - I can taste it, and I don't like the taste one bit (it's a little bit like one part of the flavour of the white rind of many citrus fruits). Stevia I've never tried, and have no idea what it actually is (chemically, I mean, I know it comes from a plant).

Im not sure what its refering to although it say at the top "to make highly concentrated EM " so it has to be much higher than 10% .[...]

Can I ask a really lazy question? And could someone take pity on me and answer it (a link is fine)?

If you are using at least some VG in your blend, why not dissolve the EM in PGA? Or vodka?
(I obviously haven't tried this yet, but that is what I instinctively would do: a flavour additive is in crystal form? Dissolve it in alcohol!)

Or is the problem that even in a water-alcohol solution (let's say 50-60% ethanol) the saturation point is rather low? Is it even lower than for PG (10% per above)?
Are there handy tables anywhere about how soluble things (the things we mostly use here) are in different mediums? (If there is such a resource, it should be a sticky here - and if it already is a sticky I apologise for my illiteracy and stupidity.)


I'm probably just really dense here, but I don't understand exactly why PG seems such a preferred solvent for many things. Is it because people don't want to use any VG at all, and diluting PG with DW or PGA would make the liquid too thin and non-vapeable?
I would think that given that I want to use at least some VG (15-30%), having some flavour concentrates or intermediate stages already in PGA/DW/Vodka would only be a plus?

Edited to add: I knew I had read something about this here somewhere, and found this thread about EM, it is a bit messy, but also gives lots of interesting pointers on using Tobacco Absolute (which I also just bought, by Flavour Art, smells wonderful, like a spicy prune-marmelade).
In the thread above I also found the following for solubility of EM:
alcohol, 12%
propylene glycol, 5.5%

So it seems to me that making a super-saturated PG-EM solution is a bit of a wasted effort, unless you want to use it all at once and don't mind working with it at a significantly higher temp than normal.

(BTW, Just from the name I though EM was an alcohol, but looking around a bit on wikipedia made me realize that I actually have no idea what is and isn't an alcohol - I really should dig out my high school chemistry books. Or maybe I need to find a forum: "Remedial Chemistry for Nerdy Humanists as it pertains to making e-liquid"... Oh, if anyone have any good basic chemistry textbooks they recommend I'd be really happy to hear about that - my high school books were rather crap and uninspiring iirc. )

 

[flbutterfly1]

I read the recipe as 27% of the total finished liquid should be EM solution. If just talking about the flavoring 8.1% of just flavoring should be the EM solution.

 

[Spazmelda]

I read the recipe as 27% of the total finished liquid should be EM solution. If just talking about the flavoring 8.1% of just flavoring should be the EM solution.

If you put it in the ejuice calculator (the excel spreadsheet one) as described, 8.1% is the amount of EM solution you'd add to the total juice recipe. In the excel spreadsheet calculator water/vodka/PGA percentage in section one is calculated based on percentage of VG added. I don't really understand it, but the formula is [(percent w/v/PGA)*(percent VG)]*amount to make.



IOW, if you set it up as described for 100 ml, you'd add 8.1 ml of the EM solution. 27/100*30/100*100ml = 8.1 ml

8.1ml/100ml *100 = 8.1%

 

[flbutterfly1]

WOw confusing. I guess that's why I use the same exact formula for all my juices. 2.7ml of pg/vg and upto 18 drops of flavoring/EM. It makes remembering my recipes so much easier. I never was very good at figuring out what all those symbols on a calculator meant.hahaha

 

[Spazmelda]

Okay, I just did this...

In scubatdan's spreadsheet I set it up:

Base PG Nic % = 100 mg
Target PG Nic % = 18 mg
Amount to me made for recipe = 100 ml
Water/Vodka/PGA = 27%
Flavor = 18%

I got:
PG w/nic = 18 ml
PG no nic = 25.9 ml
Water/vodka//PGA based on VG = 8.1 ml (which is actually EM solution)
VG = 30 ml
cinnamon flavor = 18 ml

Then I set it up in ejuicemeup like this:

Nicotine strength = 100% PG 100 mg/ml
Target nicotine strength = 18 mg/ml
water/vodka/PGA = 0%
cinnamon = 100% PG, 18%
EM = 100% PG, 8.1%

I also set it up to give me a final juice that was 70% PG, 30% VG

I got this:

Nicotine e juice = 18 ml
PG = 25.9 ml
VG = 30 ml
water/vodka/PGA = 0
cinnamon = 18 ml
EM flavor = 8.1 ml

So, I think whatever is in the recipe, it's actually like using the EM solution as a flavoring, at 8.1% of your final juice, assuming it is in 100% PG, which is what it is mixed up in.

Seems easier to me to think of it that way.

 

[flbutterfly1]

OK you explain things good. I get it now.

 

[Str8V8ping]

i read somewhere that disolving rate into PG is only 5.5% +/- so no matter how much you put into it thats all its going to disolve into pg... alcohol on the other hand is only 13% i believe...at that is at idea temps of i believe 97*C(200 or so F)...

i am too tired to figure out the math of this but it isnt a 1/3 of a 10ml bottle...the PG wont disolve it ever

Thats wrong . EM is usually dissolved to 10% in PG not 5.5 . TPA and other vendors also sell it already diluted in PG at 10% . Cotton candy flavoring is also 10% EM . Everybody that uses the crystals also dissolved it at 10% as you will see when searching . I got it to dissolve at 20% already without a problem and no separation . Im still trying to understand the recipe listed though

 

[Str8V8ping]

They way I read it is 27% is a number used on the water line of e juice me up and Ends up at 8.1 % of the recipe.

I think this is just a full saturation of em in pg and the % is not known. 10% of 10ml is .202884 of a tsp.

it cant be the regular 10% dilution because it says this

"First, the hard part. You need to make the super concentrated Ethyl Maltol liquid as follows. This will take a few days, so do this first. This is more concentrated than standard 10% Ethyl Maltol solution."

 

[Str8V8ping]

Interesting.
I just yesterday got my small jar of EM crystals so I haven't had time to play around with it yet. But I couldn't resist just opening it, sniffing it and tasting it. To me it smelled very close to caramellised sugar (sugar heated in a saucepan 'til it turns amber-brown, used to make creme caramel/flan or as a glue when making gingerbread houses), somewhere between "strong" and "this is too burnt for the kids to like it" (my grandma used to make a very simple candy of what was left from gluing the gingerbread house together: pour the rest of the caramel on a baking sheet, add almond shavings, let cool and break into pieces - very often this became the "adult candy", because of the strong/bitter burnt taste. Oh no, now I want some!).

But I did think the few EM crystals I put on my tongue tasted sweet - a surprisingly neutral sweet compared to the smell. More simple sirup than cristalline sugar.

I know I have some weird taste-sensitivities, especially when it comes to sucralose (Splenda) - I can taste it, and I don't like the taste one bit (it's a little bit like one part of the flavour of the white rind of many citrus fruits). Stevia I've never tried, and have no idea what it actually is (chemically, I mean, I know it comes from a plant).



Can I ask a really lazy question? And could someone take pity on me and answer it (a link is fine)?

If you are using at least some VG in your blend, why not dissolve the EM in PGA? Or vodka?
(I obviously haven't tried this yet, but that is what I instinctively would do: a flavour additive is in crystal form? Dissolve it in alcohol!)

Or is the problem that even in a water-alcohol solution (let's say 50-60% ethanol) the saturation point is rather low? Is it even lower than for PG (10% per above)?
Are there handy tables anywhere about how soluble things (the things we mostly use here) are in different mediums? (If there is such a resource, it should be a sticky here - and if it already is a sticky I apologise for my illiteracy and stupidity.)


I'm probably just really dense here, but I don't understand exactly why PG seems such a preferred solvent for many things. Is it because people don't want to use any VG at all, and diluting PG with DW or PGA would make the liquid too thin and non-vapeable?
I would think that given that I want to use at least some VG (15-30%), having some flavour concentrates or intermediate stages already in PGA/DW/Vodka would only be a plus?

Edited to add: I knew I had read something about this here somewhere, and found this thread about EM, it is a bit messy, but also gives lots of interesting pointers on using Tobacco Absolute (which I also just bought, by Flavour Art, smells wonderful, like a spicy prune-marmelade).
In the thread above I also found the following for solubility of EM:
alcohol, 12%
propylene glycol, 5.5%

So it seems to me that making a super-saturated PG-EM solution is a bit of a wasted effort, unless you want to use it all at once and don't mind working with it at a significantly higher temp than normal.

(BTW, Just from the name I though EM was an alcohol, but looking around a bit on wikipedia made me realize that I actually have no idea what is and isn't an alcohol - I really should dig out my high school chemistry books. Or maybe I need to find a forum: "Remedial Chemistry for Nerdy Humanists as it pertains to making e-liquid"... Oh, if anyone have any good basic chemistry textbooks they recommend I'd be really happy to hear about that - my high school books were rather crap and uninspiring iirc. )

I dont like PGA in my juices thats why as a lot of people dont . I dont like the harshness and everything else it brings out in the juice . There are a few people that dont have a problem with it but id say the majority iv seen dont like it either . You can dilute the EM in PGA but imo PGA ruins the juice .Theres no reason why you cant . Yes some people use TA in there EM too and thats when you have to use PGA . The TA will only work with PGA . I know what EM is and how it works as i use it a lot and have diluted it before at the standard percent . I just wanted a super concentrated bottle of it too for the recipes that call for it . The reason people dont use VG is because it thicker and harder to saturate .

 

[Str8V8ping]

If you put it in the ejuice calculator (the excel spreadsheet one) as described, 8.1% is the amount of EM solution you'd add to the total juice recipe. In the excel spreadsheet calculator water/vodka/PGA percentage in section one is calculated based on percentage of VG added. I don't really understand it, but the formula is [(percent w/v/PGA)*(percent VG)]*amount to make.



IOW, if you set it up as described for 100 ml, you'd add 8.1 ml of the EM solution. 27/100*30/100*100ml = 8.1 ml

8.1ml/100ml *100 = 8.1%

I understand the recipe and have put it in scuba calculator but the recipe isnt really what im after . 8.1% is just the amout of the x.xpercent EM to go in there . Im just trying to figure out what percent the EM is . From the measurement that actually went in the EM bottle 27% could be a realistic number to the actual percentage . He also said it was super strenth and much higher than the normal 10% EM .