why are LIPO batteries not as good as 18650s?

[Tagi]

I have read a couple postings about the HCigar model not lasting long from those that either have not set the watt hours in escribe (default is only 9 hours if I remember correctly) or they running it at 100+ all day as their only vape device. Any mod including dual 18650 mods ran at those wattages drop fast. I have experienced this with my IPV3 165w, OKL-T20, and dna 200


I built a dna 200 using a 2200mah 3s cell. I used it and a vaporshark dna 40 all last week as my only devices at 40watts. The battery was in the 45% range when I got home Friday at 7pm.

 

[Margucci]

I built a dna 200 using a 2200mah 3s cell. I used it and a vaporshark dna 40 all last week as my only devices at 40watts. The battery was in the 45% range when I got home Friday at 7pm.

that is similar to what i am hearing under similar usage patterns. under 75W the 3 cell lipos have absolutely incredible performance. at this point even with 0.1ohm builds there is no way i can vape at anything over 100W let alone anywhere close to 200W. the spec war is getting out of hand.

as an aside one thing i would really like to see is a Qi wireless charging coil installed in the bottom of the lipo mods. for people who have battery issues it would be great for top up charges throughout the day. it wouldnt add too much to the cost of the device and would only marginally increase the overall height. its quality of life changes that are needed at this point in vaping. i dont think anyone cares in the slightest what the first mainstream 250W mod (or higher) mod will be. we cant really push the resistance of coils any lower unless we start moving into expensive more exotic metals or much lower gauges (which isnt realistic for size reasons). even going up above 150W is near pointless. work needs to shift to making longer lasting, smaller, and more user friendly mods.

 

[tj99959]

Funny part is that it's easy to make the vape way stronger than most can handle with a 2 ohm coil @ less than 20 watts. (~3 amps)

 

[Margucci]

i think park of the appeal of these ultra high wattage mods is the epeen factor. some feel that vaping a 0.12ohm coil at 130W is more impressive. i do see the benefits to lower resistances and the higher wattages which accompany them but at a certain point you start to hit diminishing returns. part of me is curious to see if anyone would actually buy something like a 10x100mAh lipo running at 500W+. sure you may only get 60s or so actual burn time and you would probably need something like a parallel 12 gauge wire so things dont immediately burst into flames as soon as you hit the button... but i would be willing to bet i could sell at least 100 of them.

 

[Oberon75]

I have read a couple postings about the HCigar model not lasting long from those that either have not set the watt hours in escribe (default is only 9 hours if I remember correctly) or they running it at 100+ all day as their only vape device. Any mod including dual 18650 mods ran at those wattages drop fast. I have experienced this with my IPV3 165w, OKL-T20, and DNA 200


I built a dna 200 using a 2200mah 3s cell. I used it and a vaporshark dna 40 all last week as my only devices at 40watts. The battery was in the 45% range when I got home Friday at 7pm.

I generally run my SX Mini over 100w all the time and get close to a full day out of it. I use the 3000mah LG HG2's.

Sent from my HTC One M8 Harman/Kardon edition

 

[Tagi]

Is that in TC mode?

 

[IMFire3605]

I generally run my SX Mini over 100w all the time and get close to a full day out of it. I use the 3000mah LG HG2's.

Sent from my HTC One M8 Harman/Kardon edition

*Highlighted*
3000mah 18650 there in is the reason you get such a long run time.

OT
I've seen LiPo packs that are up in the 10000 to 15000mah range, would be perfect for applications for long run time at higher output, downside, just like ICR batteries, those LiPo packs are low amp output.

@Margucci
just read your post about cell phones using LiPo packs, yes that is true, but there is a very distinct difference between the amp pull of a low drain cell phone current and a 20amp high drain application. Like I said with RC cars, one good bump when a fast performing RC car, thus at full amp draw the motor and speed limiter can pull from the battery pack, the LiPo is hot, hits a bump, nice little flare, flame, and smoke show, thus under those conditions, until LiPo safety and stability at high amp drain is addressed, I'll keep the LiPo packs away from my face in those conditions, in an iStick30w or such is one thing, 200watts is quite another, even with a pair of 30amp LG HB6, that range is still to high.

 

[Oberon75]

Is that in TC mode?

Wattage mode using kanthal.

Sent from my HTC One M8 Harman/Kardon edition

 

[Tagi]

Not sure how. dual VTC5 in my IPV3 in the 100+ ranges last a few hours when I am playing with the clouds.


At 100watts
The lg 3000 -
Battery power capacity @ 3.7 V 11.1 Wh
Estimated total runtime 6 min
Estimated # puffs @ 5 sec puffs 72

VTC5 series -
Runtime – how long you can vape
Battery power capacity @ 7.4 V 19.24 Wh
Estimated total runtime 10 min
Estimated # puffs @ 5 sec puffs 125

Edited to add the 2200 3s lipo

Battery power capacity @ 11.1 V 24.42 Wh
Estimated total runtime 13 min
Estimated # puffs @ 5 sec puffs 158

 

[Margucci]

*Highlighted*
3000mah 18650 there in is the reason you get such a long run time.

exactly. you are comparing 6000mAh of stored energy with something that perhaps has 3x1000mAh worth of total energy. however, even with that being said as you turn down the wattage despite the LG batteries having much more stored charge the lipo cells are more efficient and the usage gap will close by a surprising amount.

I've seen LiPo packs that are up in the 10000 to 15000mah range, would be perfect for applications for long run time at higher output, downside, just like ICR batteries, those LiPo packs are low amp output.

@Margucci
just read your post about cell phones using LiPo packs, yes that is true, but there is a very distinct difference between the amp pull of a low drain cell phone current and a 20amp high drain application. Like I said with RC cars, one good bump when a fast performing RC car, thus at full amp draw the motor and speed limiter can pull from the battery pack, the LiPo is hot, hits a bump, nice little flare, flame, and smoke show, thus under those conditions, until LiPo safety and stability at high amp drain is addressed, I'll keep the LiPo packs away from my face in those conditions, in an iStick30w or such is one thing, 200watts is quite another, even with a pair of 30amp LG HB6, that range is still to high.

those high capacity lipo packs are also physically larger than the ones which we are seeing in the DNA200s. in order to achieve the necessary current output at least 3 cells are needed. there is also a diminishing return on capacity for a given size when you increase the number of cells. ie. 2x1500mAh cells would be larger than a single 3000mAh cell. this is compounded because something which is a single cell doesnt need the same type of charging regulator to ensure even charging between the cells. in something like a 3 cell mod extra space will be needed for the power regulators. i hope that within a year or so capacities will increase by at least 30% given the same current, size, etc. this should be possible with some R&D focus.

with current 3 cell lipo packs i have no worries about safety. given that i dont vape over 100w the current output from each of the three lipo cells is much lower than there can ever be an issue with. in addition i dont plan on vaping while being repeatedly kicked in the head.

 

[lexalove]

Why does it cut the watts down? I usually vape 70-80 so that would be good for me too

The wattage is reduced because the 3s LiPo's are 11.1V while a 2s (2x 18650) outputs typically 8.4V fresh off the charger.

I make 2s DNA200 mods because you can make them much smaller than an equivalent LiPo mod (equivalent in terms of vape time), not everybody needs 200 Watts (people who buy my mods and myself for that matter don't really go above 50 Watts) and it's much more convenient (imo) to be able to swap out 2 18650's when the mod if flat than have to find a power source to charge a LiPo mod (as long as you have spare batteries of course). Plus people who have been vaping for any length of time normally have 18650's and a suitable charger already.

I think I read in a post that someone was looking at making a single 18650 DNA200 mod - this isn't possible. The DNA200 needs 5V minimum to operate so one 3.7V cell isn't going to cut the mustard!

 

[towelie]

Simply, a small lipo is a way to get a small form factor and a true 200watts. evolve got into a pissing contest with china it seems and won at the expense of battery life. as a long time rc pilot i will not have lipos near my face, period. Actually i have been considering soldering 18650s for use in rc.

 

[towelie]

I know i know " not near my face" right? how many amps is my cell drawing off its pack again? well dont go above 100watts and all is well with stacked triple cells....ok why not parallel 18650s in which case 100watts is a breeze.

 

[lexalove]

I know i know " not near my face" right? how many amps is my cell drawing off its pack again? well dont go above 100watts and all is well with stacked triple cells....ok why not parallel 18650s in which case 100watts is a breeze.

Parallel 18650's won't give you 5V so not an option on DNA200D.

 

[AzPlumber]

there is a lot of misconception about what lipo batteries are. first off the "LIPO" refers to the battery technology itself. they are Lithium Polymer cells. and for any person why says they would not trust a lipo near their face probably should toss out their cellphone. the vast majority of cell batters in modern phones are lithium polymer.

Poor example, cell phones don't use high amperage.

The wattage is reduced because the 3s LiPo's are 11.1V while a 2s (2x 18650) outputs typically 8.4V fresh off the charger.

A fully charged 3 cell Lipo pack is 12.6 volts (11.1 is nominal)

 

[Margucci]

a lot of people are taking my statement comparing cell phone batteries to what are in mods as being literal. obviously that is a simplistic statement. they are hugely different. however, it is as accurate as people saying that lipo batteries are unsafe because they explode. the use in a given situation is what matters. honestly in this 200W pissing contest it would have been nice to see a 4 cell setup instead so the current per cell is even lower. however, that would sacrifice capacity and physical size even more. ideally, they wattage would just be lowered to 160W which would make even more sense.

i honestly want to know who vapes at over 160W. even over 150W. even if you are vaping at those ridiculously high wattages the current being drawn from those cells is so low that there is no risk of a catastrophic failure due the battery issues. making a comparison to RC cars makes no sense at all. in a RC car you are drawing high current and there are a lot of physical impacts which the car and batteries need to contend with. in a vape you are not pulling high current for extended periods. 6-8s per vape isnt long enough even at max power for enough heat to build up to cause any concern. and unless you are being repeatedly being kicked in the head by a jackrabbit as you vape i dont think you need to worry about vibration or impacts.

although lipo cells have been used in mods before they were generally high capacity low current single cell packs (maybe even dual) which were originally developed for another use and were being pushed to their limit for current draw so that they could maintain their capacity. there is as much of a chance that the batteries in a DNA200 lipo mod explode as there would be in a dual 18650 setup. there would be even more of a chance at an issue with the 18650s because they are being run at much higher currents. the vast majority of concerns about the new lipo packs lie in inadequate education. a 15,000 mAh single cell lipo mod is not the same as what is in a DNA200. the lipo packs in RC cars are not the same as those in a DNA200. in fact both of those examples have as much in common with a DNA200 as a cell phone battery does. see how i came full circle there.

 

[Completely Average]

Not sure how. dual VTC5 in my IPV3 in the 100+ ranges last a few hours when I am playing with the clouds.


At 100watts
The lg 3000 -
Battery power capacity @ 3.7 V 11.1 Wh
Estimated total runtime 6 min
Estimated # puffs @ 5 sec puffs 72

VTC5 series -
Runtime – how long you can vape
Battery power capacity @ 7.4 V 19.24 Wh
Estimated total runtime 10 min
Estimated # puffs @ 5 sec puffs 125

Edited to add the 2200 3s lipo

Battery power capacity @ 11.1 V 24.42 Wh
Estimated total runtime 13 min
Estimated # puffs @ 5 sec puffs 158

Yeah, but a 2200 mAh 3S Lipo is HUGE for an ecig mod. The battery alone is larger than my SnowWolf with the Freemax Starre tank on top. Most people aren't going to want an ecig mod the size of a 1980s mobile phone.

 

[crompers]

I have two mods, a Subox Mini and a Coolfire 4, even with a 2100mah 18650 in the Subox it doesnt last anywhere near as long as the Coolfire, the battery life is honestly freakish and I can get through two days if i have to (30-35w, how anyone can vape at 100w+ I have no idea).

 

[shannon walker]

Lol I just gotta say I use an istick 50w and a Evic vt.

Istick 50w has 2 18650s not a lipo 4400 mah lasts me 2+days at 30 watts

Evic vt has 3 lipos 5000mah lasts me 3 days easy at 40ish watts

Both excellent excellent mods I do take good care of my stuff haven't had a single issue with either one I recommend either one for a great all day vape. For me 50 watts is mostly more than I will ever need and 200 well I'm sure glad some people like them and all.

Different strokes I guess

 

[tj99959]

Meanwhile, back in real life ..................................... yes it's still "different strokes".

I, for instance, am getting along real nicely using a 650mA 14500 @ 2.2a (9a CDR)

So go ahead and spend all day trying to figure out how to power a 200w mod all you want to. I'l just sit back and enjoy a nice vape & watch.