Why Is It Legal To Sell Cigarettes That is Murdering 5.4 Million People A Year?

[Bountyhunterinc]

Wow I was ready to lay into this guy as well, good thing I scrolled through a few posts first. With all the damage this guy has caused (is causing) e-cigs, I'll be damned if Terra didn't sort him out in a few incredible posts.

And **** man that facepalm .gif... will be legendary.

And I say to Jon: Please read through this thread, over and over and over again. In the 20 or so posts here, there is enough wisdom and logic to change the course of e-cig success. Srsly. Keep reading them until you get it, it's all here in plain English.

The E-cig is still in it's infancy, and very vulnerable. There is no "money and power" in selling e-cigs right now, even though I know your type is out there ready to take the general public for all they're worth. What is available is a quick buck, and your kind is killing that quickly. Get over it, come again soon.

Being open and honest about the facts, of which there are little to none, is all we can do to push forward the use, and hopefully the eventual acceptance, of vaping, if in fact it does turn out to be a safer alternative to analogs.

Not to be too dramatic or forceful (i can't top the logic already laid down in this thread) I leave you with a quote from Mr. Teddy Roosevelt, about character:

Character, in the long run, is the decisive factor in the life of an individual and of nations alike.

Get some - and use that energy of yours to really get the testing done, find the facts, and make the best decisions.

/dramatic

 

[Terraphon]

Once again, agreed. Bountyhunterinc says there's no money and power in e-cigs right now and he's spot on. Big tobacco has billions and billions of dollars with which they can sway decisions, create PR blitzes, change the course of entire industries.

Why would you want to piss them off right now?

And the government agencies here in the states that control and regulate things like this...the guys that decide whether they're going to tell the lawmakers that something is safe and healthy and ready for public use or whether it's going to kill millions of registered voters - the ones that have entire industries in their pockets...

Why would you want to piss them off?

Under the radar, dude. You're NOT going to be the messiah. You're NOT Jesus E-cig, here to teach those around you of the wonders of vaping and change the course of history. You're NOT going to part the Red Sea of big tobacco and lead the vapers unto the promised land.

Just do your part, Jon...And sometimes that means sneaking in the back-door instead of trying to mount a frontal assault.

 

[OutWest]

it's kinda like when Ecstasy was legal. As long as it wasnt mainstream and was under the radar, everyone was happy. Once it got too mainstream and too well known, along came the govt to change it.

An even better analogy would be back when nicotine lollipops were legal. Then Walgreens started carrying them and then the media started talking about them. And then, even though they were not sold to kids, the govt stepped in and put a stop to it, saying that they were afraid that kids would get ahold of 'em. The reality, though, was that they werent regulated, werent controlled by the pharmaceutical industy, werent controlled by big tobacco, and werent taxed (exactly like e-cigs)

 

[Terraphon]

yep...and now walgreens AND target are selling e-cigs.

We may just be boned.

DAMNIT!

 

[OutWest]

on the plus side, when that day comes there's always overseas sources (thank god for the internet). Some will get intercepted by customs, but not all of it.

 

[Lithium1330]

on the plus side, when that day comes there's always overseas sources (thank god for the internet). Some will get intercepted by customs, but not all of it.

Yeah thank god for the internet, but not just for keep buying this devices, but for "new" that will come after this ones get banned, and also because eventually the knowledge on this devices will be sufficient for DYI atomizers, USB passtrhougs, etc...

And I can assure you, banned or not banned we gonna keep vaping in safer and safer ways, this can't be stopped as long as nicotine is legal even if nicotine get to be harder regulated there are still more alternatives.

 

[mrwade01]

You're right NoBrainer, the only way to prove anything with credibility is to have scientifically rigorous tests ... lots of them ... for each product, formula and ingredient.

Okay, this is a good spot for me to chime in with something my little brother reminded me of. I only quote Kate because it was a good starting point, not to be contradictory. Not only to I agree with much of everything I've read for her posts, but I've also got this secrete little Nun thing going on. That, now that I think about it, isn't as much of a secrete as once it was....
Moving on. Who is it exactly that we are about to be asked to trust to regulate all things E-cig in this country? Oh yeah, the FDA. And this would be the same FDA that not so long ago told my Mother and millions of people like her that Fen Phen had been fully tested and was perfectly safe. Well, here we are not that many years later and her cardiologist has clearly proven otherwise. And that is just one of many drugs that had the financial backing to buy their way through the process.
Considering the fact that financialy , the pharmaceutical industry has nothing to gain, and a lot to loose with this product, do you expect a positive outcome?
Robert

 

[mrwade01]

Jon, you have been impulsive and REALLY HARDHEADED. Your actions have called attention to us that we DO NOT WANT. Please read carefully.

Until there are more of us, we do not have the voting power or the financial power to defend the ecig against Big Tobacco, Big Pharmaceutical, or Big Brother.

Until we have proper documentation of the ingredients, proper testing, and a proper sample submitted to the FDA for their testing along with the proper paperwork submitted the proper way, we are NOT FDA approved, NOT safe, NOT interested in involving the general public or the government - this includes the elected officials that we cannot afford to buy.

The people on these forums are your potential future customers. They are telling you what they want. They are telling you how to get them to buy from you. They are giving you a map to their heartstrings and their pursestrings. They are shouting, "STOP YELLING YOU'LL WAKE BIG BROTHER.", and "BE VERY CLEAR AND VERY CAUTIOUS IN YOUR MARKETING.", and "QUIT TAKING ADVANTAGE OF PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY THE SMOKERS - THEY ARE DESPARATE RIGHT NOW AND GRASPING AT STRAWS, ALIENATING THEM SPELLS OUR DOOM." You will not have repeat customers if you keep alienating them. Nor will you have long term customers if they find out the information on these forums which they eventually will since your version of caring for them is going to send them out to google the device, which will lead them directly to us. Take the cotton out of your ears, and stick it in your mouth for awhile.

You are taking the short man's approach - push and shove and trample to get to the front of the line, pissing everyone else off, only to find out what everyone else knew all along "slow and steady wins the race". We need slow, steady growth, not a huge influx of fad-following, controversy-causing dramaseekers. Your marketing may cause a fad like the Pet Rock, but it would only be a fad and would cause a kneejerk reaction from everyone else whose girlfriend died of cancer - most assume it is nicotine that causes all the health risks of tobacco and will act instantly and impulsively to have their bought officials take action against this new "evil threat" to their nicfree world. Your fad would create chaos in the community and would then fade away like the Pet Rock.

SLOW STEADY GROWTH, NOT DRAMATIC MASS MARKETING.

I started out trying to be openminded and work toward including you in the consensus, but you are still arguing. I must get you to shut up and listen - with your heart, not your head or your keyboard. Hear that you will not gain acceptance here with the approach you have used to date.

Well put Nico, I just wish he were the kind of person that would listen.

 

[mrwade01]

oh, wait...This guy is THAT guy?

lol.

Take your crap elsewhere, dude...Nobody here cares.

And if you push your particular agenda you're going to find that big tobacco starts baring its teeth a lot sooner and a lot nastier than we'd like.

You can bury your own business all you like but don't step on everyone else while you're doing it (Also, I hear your product sucks).

Terraphon, Dude! I like the way you roll!! Ive had about a gutfull of this POS

 

[mrwade01]

IN THROUGH THE NOSE..............OUT THROUGH THE MOUTH..........
Okay... Jon, can I call ya "Bro"? I'm sure you remember me, you and I are "Bro's" from way back. You might have noticed by now how I have yet to tear in to you. There are a couple of very good reasons for that. It has nothing to do with fear of censorship, and the like. Firstly, here I don't have to be all that outspoken. It appears that people already have a pretty fair assessment of you and your motives. Secondly, well I'm bored with you "Bro". You have made it abundantly clear that you don't care what the e-cig community thinks. It wont take long before you start making many regret all of the effort and time that they put in to trying to get you to so much as acknowledge their points of view. You are one of a hand full of people I've encountered in my life that I honestly view as being beneath contempt

Don't think for a second that I regret anything I've said about you in other places. Not for a second! The word is out on you "Bro", my bile isn't needed here

 

[FlufferNutter]

If Mr. "safecig" gets his way, we'll all be lined up at the doctor's office getting a prescription for ecigs. Then we will go to our local pharmacy and dramatically overpay for them. I like it the way it is better. Plenty of ambitious entrepeneurs selling their stuff. Nice competition. You know what arises out of competition? QUALITY and VALUE! If the govt gets ahold of this thing, they will set up a monopoly "right quick" for "quality control" and we will be up sh** creek with out a paddle.

 

[Apatel]

Who can say our e-cigs are safe? We think they are safer than analog cigs. For years, people were smoking analogs, not knowing of the dangers.

What is e-liquid? Did the list of ingrediants on the pet food, eggs, and milk from China list "now with melamine, for added flavor"? I don't know what I'll be vaping, but I think it's safer than cigarettes, but I may be wrong.

I wish these was more QC and testing, but I doubt that will happen any time soon, but I do KNOW that false claims will cause bans or regulations.

 

[mrwade01]

Who can say our e-cigs are safe? We think they are safer than analog cigs. For years, people were smoking analogs, not knowing of the dangers.

I have to disagree with you on a couple of points here. For one, I have never met a smoker yet that needed the federal courts force big tobacco in to telling us they are addictive. Or to admit the myriad of way that smoking is bad for you. Its been common knowledge for generations. In fact, I'd really like to meet the smoker that found him(or her)self surprised by a single thing that the tobacco industry has been forced to admit in the last 20 years.

What is e-liquid? Did the list of ingrediants on the pet food, eggs, and milk from China list "now with melamine, for added flavor"? I don't know what I'll be vaping, but I think it's safer than cigarettes, but I may be wrong.

On this I could not agree more! It concerns me too! However, at this time I have to balance that against the fact that after over 30 years, I have only lit(never finished more than half) 4 analogs in almost 9 days. In just that short time I already have more energy and have enjoyed playing with my two young Sons more than since they were born. Its my body, my future and I want to retain the right to take this risk.

I wish these was more QC and testing, but I doubt that will happen any time soon, but I do KNOW that false claims will cause bans or regulations.

I believe that we are all in agreement on this one!!


Robert

 

[nitewriter]

As my wise Grandmother used to say "Stupid is as stupid does".

The man who has won millions at the cost of his conscience is a failure.
BC Forbes

Most men pursue pleasure with such breathless haste that they hurry past it. –Kierkegaard

The be-all and end-all of life should not be to get rich, but to enrich the world. -- B. C. Forbes

Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it.
Mark Twain

 

[GoldenP51]

its a no brainer - you sir, are an idiot

 

[riddle80]

It's amazing that this drama hasn't been resolved yet. You could write a book with the logical advice that's been blatantly put in front of his face yet it seems to fall on deaf ears. Just don't get it .

Jon, out of curiosity, what lessons have you learned from this experience? Do you understand why people are so upset?

The most important lesson should be that truth in marketing is so very important at this stage of development. No one says you can't personally believe whatever you want about these devices, but when you sell a product using claims you can't prove it's gonna bite you (and possibly everyone else that relies on these) in the .... later on. You're much more than an individual, you're one of many companies representing this industry. I can't say much more that hasn't already been said, but please don't take this position lightly. If you want to spend your $ wisely, instead of buying billboard space, spend it on further testing to help secure your future. There is still so much research and development that needs to be done so that you can assure that you're selling a "safecig" and market it as a fact, not a belief!

 

[Terraphon]

This comes back to circular logic riddle. Jon seems to believe that because he "believes" something to be true, it must be true.

When you try to explain to him that his facts aren't facts he doesn't listen because he believes they are and if he believes they are then they must be.

You present him with facts that he doesn't want to believe so they become the falsehoods.

This all boils down to what he wants to put in his wallet and I don't care what he claims, I BELIEVE that to be a FACT.

 

[Kate]

... I've also got this secrete little Nun thing going on. That, now that I think about it, isn't as much of a secrete as once it was...

... If you want to spend your $ wisely, instead of buying billboard space, spend it on further testing to help secure your future. There is still so much research and development that needs to be done so that you can assure that you're selling a "safecig" and market it as a fact, not a belief!

That would be a much more effective use of cash, if he really does want to help smokers then he will follow up on the claims he made about having testing carried out and make the reports public.

 

[New Year quitter]

I agree Terraphon.

Selling a product as 'safe' that hasn't been scientifically proven could be murder.

My own take on this: it might very well be the case that e-smoking is bad for you, it could be as bad as smoking, or worse after X number of years, these are all possibilities and further rigorous testing is indeed required.
But, until such test results are in, we can only go off the results of our own experiences, and so far the findings are positive - what do I mean by positive?
Well, since I've changed from analogues to e-cigs I have experienced the same symptoms as a smoker who simply quits smoking altogether - my lungs are clearing up, my lung capacity is increasing, my heart rate has slowed, and my sense of taste and smell have increased, oh and I also get the blasted ulcers!
Now I realize that this doesn't prove that e-smoking is harmless, but it surely must be a good sign that as far as my body is concerned, it thinks I am no longer smoking anything.
Not conclusive by any stretch, but like I said, so far the findings are positive. And once I get down to zero % nicotine (I still have some eliquid left and I'm not throwing it away) then my health will improve even more because we already know that nicotine is bad for us.

All I would say to a smoker thinking of switching to e-cigs is this: yes do it, but don't stay on the nicotine, gradually lower the dosage then cut it out completely. After all it's the nicotine that made you addicted to ciggies in the first place.

 

[Kate]

Nicotine has been shown to have beneficial health effects for some conditions. I have no intention of quitting altogether, just to take a regular low dose.