Why Vaping Might Fail... (Manufacturers, Distributors please note)
- Thread starter ElProximo
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I just started a week ago myself, a friend had purchased a white dragon setup at a flea market a while back and I thought, oh cool that's the kind of thing that I can actually replace my smoking habit with. but than the tech geek that I am said, I need to do a little research before I jump into this.
I started reading these forums and thought Wh@$@ SH%!, what a mishmash of diverging designs. I looked at the 510s, but it seemed pretty overwhelming as far as choices went, Sure I could figure out what the state of the art is currently and could have gone that route. but I ended up going with the K.I.S.S. philosophy, and went with V4L, simply because I didn't have to deal with what atomizer is right for what battery and should I use a tank or a cart. it was one retailer with one style of Ecig and a huge array of flavors. of course I have since started going to other companies for juice, and am playing with some of the other Cartomizer solutions now, but will likely stick with the system I have for the foreseeable future simply because of it's simplicity.
The model that V4L and some of the other companies have embraced of simplifying the process is probably going to win out with the masses in the long run. I have had several people since ask me about vaping, and most of them would be sympathetic with ElProximo's friend. Simplification will need to happen before this actually becomes a major market. and it will happen, its happening right now, a few companies are streamlining to something that is fairly idiot proof. and eventually the mods and complicated setups will be for the hotrodders of this market, the big money will be in the standard stuff. I told the people who asked me, to go with V4L. They asked is it the best technology? nope, Than is it the most versatile? nope, is it at least the cheapest? Nope, but it is one thing, its pretty much idiot proof.
There is no way, imo, that eventually this industry will fold to the easily comfortable or lazy. People like a wide variety of choices. There will always be the simple units for people who want that, but I highly doubt that accounts for the majority.
Mods will not only be for the "hotrodders". That's just silly! I'm a 40yo nurse and mother of three and I vape on a Darwin with a map tank and soon a vapemate. Why? Because I researched something I considered putting into my body very well and found what works for me by reading reviews and learning about each product carefully as all consumers should!
If your view were correct, there would only be one type of tv, one style of clothes, one type of food and only one cell phone carried by one carrier...has our society ever existed this way??
*Droid
I think you are stuck on the 'quitting cigarettes' angle of this but why are putting the word friend in quote marks?
You might want to ask this question:
What is better?
- standard products that are easy to use and largely compatible (like cigarettes, lighters and ashtrays for example),
or,
- non-standardized products vendor-specific, few interchangeable parts between models, etc?
Why wouldn't the latter be better?
Maybe a better question is asking why you would want needlessly difficult products if you didn't need them?
And a number here seem to have decided it is difficult to switch to vaping. That is requires will-power (almost as if it were quitting smoking).
Fair enough. For you the vaping was like quitting smoking and required you to try hard and quit analogs. That's okay and must be why you 'catching him giving up',
but,
To get it off the quit smoking angle lets put it this way:
Take someone who does not smoke and is not addicted to nicotine. They may be interested in the idea of getting a PV for flavour and fun. Not inhaling. Zero nicotine.
Are they more or less likely to drop $80 on a kit if they find out it won't work with 10 other types, parts, accessories?
I'd say they are less likely to bother.
How about this:
- 3 friends are on a road trip and all switched to Vaping. On the road trip ones Atomizer dies. No problem.. I got an extra one. Oops. Nope. Doesn't fit your model.
Got a dead battery and friend tosses you his. Oh no.. it doesn't fit this one either. Can I use your charger? No.. it fries your battery if you use it.
To me this bums out the group of Vapers and to the others watching this inconvenient clustermuck of mismatching parts its hardly a selling point for them to get in on it.
I'm starting to see a bit of tolling here! Stuck on incompatibility way too much. If you know what you buy (and how the heck could you not) you buy what is compatible with that connection! If your not sure, contact vendor. If someone makes a spur of the moment purchase and it doesn't work out, fault is yours. Pretty easy, not rocket science. And, btw, other tech gadgets (tv's etc) aren't easy to everyone, have you looked at the back of a high end model recently? My mother had a hard time with vcr's because...wait for it....because she said she couldn't be bothered.
*Droid
*Droid
I'm not stuck on compatibility and I don't know what tolling is. Is it like rocket science?
Funny you mention VCRs. This does remind me of consumer frustration when there were those huge laser disks, betamax and VCR and eventually the public picked the 'winner' (which wasn't the best quality necessarily) but this way everyone could use the same tapes in the same machines. After that the home video market really just exploded into mainstream and the prices came down.
Now even more interesting is Malcolm Gladwell actually uses VCR as an example of 'failure' of potential due to needless complicated user-unfriendly buttons etc.
TV's are also a good example. When you go back to the early era it was a little something like PVs are now. Google around Television history and its actually quite interesting looking back. Remember - at this time 'TV Repairman' was an actual job with 'neighbourhood accounts' and stores and diplomas etc.
TVs do become 'compatible' and standardized meaning they agreed (as in industry) to use very similar antenna standards, cable connectors so (for example) any VCR would plug-n-play with any TV.
Now, you can see televisions are really less of a problem solved by making it standard to include 'legacy support' connectors, future-proofing connections and then trying to put as many 'possible' holes back there so pretty much any TV device you buy will fit any TV you buy.
To give a sort of similar solution in cigarettes I was thinking of this unique little cigarette holder I used to have kicking around here.
Remember these things? It was basically the 'cartridge' (if you will) of the analogs. The clever thing is that they found a way to make it work with any cigarette.
You didn't need to buy a different holder for slims, regulars or even cigarillos. The pipe 'flared' wide-to-narrow so they could all fit by simply pushing them in further until they grabbed.
But honestly I think you might not be grasping the 'idea' here. I think you might be getting lost in the sort of 'concept' and even worse confused into thinking there is a 'challenge' to your ability to study and become a sort of tech nerd.
This is not the premise or question or concern here.
This is real people (and you will find plenty) who are not engaging in the new technology because (here comes that tolling word) incompatible models, learning curves, techno-jargon and instant obsolescence.
There really is. This is happening. It's not a 'dare' or some 'personal challenge' and whether we think they are stupid or lazy isn't actually the point at all.
The 'point' here is that this IS happening and it their avoidance (or entry) has huge implications.
One thing I should have mentioned is that I am in Canada and its probably very important to mention that we (rarely) can find these anywhere else but online.
In our case, people rarely have the opportunity to browse stores, handle devices etc. They most often have to learn about it online and then buy online. This issue may not be as difficult where you can physically handle devices or could bring your PV or parts in and physically match them even by hand or at least eye.
BTW - I even wonder if we did a photo contest on 'box of useless parts' just how many already have about $300 (or more) dollars (purchase price) of defunct parts already. I mean still working but no longer matching (or worth selling) parts?
And how long since they started versus the collection?
Someone mentioned the old cell phone chargers.. I had to laugh because I swear I still have an entire junk drawer just jam-packed with those from the last 10 years. Add the headphones, earbuds etc and its quite an impressive bundle of useless (but working) plastic and wire!
A friend of mine got a PV, an eGo, after laughing at him for 2 weeks he had me try it... wow that is cool, I could use this to at least not have to go outside all the time... I asked where he got it, went to the same place and bought one.
I burned out an atomizer quickly, store replaced it no problem. I wanted to get an extra spare, their prices were high, I went online and googled.
I found ECF. In less than 2 minutes I found out that the eGo uses a 510 connector, I bought atomizers that were 510.
They worked. I found out I can get juice cheaper from some of the suppliers here.
I ordered some. It worked.
I bought lots of spare parts and juice, just in case. I bought things that said 510.
They worked.
I told friends about vaping. They tried it. They bought some.
Some bought the same type I did, things that take 510.
My parts work on theirs!
Some bought other models (808). Their parts do not work on mine.
There are adapters, they make their parts work on mine!
So... tell me... how was this so complicated? Notice the ONE difference here...
I USED GOOGLE TO DO TWO MINUTES OF RESEARCH.
I burned out an atomizer quickly, store replaced it no problem. I wanted to get an extra spare, their prices were high, I went online and googled.
I found ECF. In less than 2 minutes I found out that the eGo uses a 510 connector, I bought atomizers that were 510.
They worked. I found out I can get juice cheaper from some of the suppliers here.
I ordered some. It worked.
I bought lots of spare parts and juice, just in case. I bought things that said 510.
They worked.
I told friends about vaping. They tried it. They bought some.
Some bought the same type I did, things that take 510.
My parts work on theirs!
Some bought other models (808). Their parts do not work on mine.
There are adapters, they make their parts work on mine!
So... tell me... how was this so complicated? Notice the ONE difference here...
I USED GOOGLE TO DO TWO MINUTES OF RESEARCH.
This industry is in it's infancy. Come on. Give it a break.
It's a crapshoot when you research and commit to your first PV.
The issue with the general public and why this hasn't taken off even more (and don't get me wrong, I LOVE to vape) is that people want instant gratification with no thought going into it. A poster mentioned that with cigarettes, you buy them and a lighter and you're good to go. That's it. PV's have a lot of bells and whistles. The simple designs just don't work. Battery life stinks, pre filled cartos are gross.
That's why I went with the Super T Precise line. Buy batteries a couple times a year and then all I have to worry about are attys and liquids. Love the saying "keep it simple, stupid". Some of these vendors seem to be carrying so many different configurations but that's what it is folks, marketing.
It's a crapshoot when you research and commit to your first PV.
The issue with the general public and why this hasn't taken off even more (and don't get me wrong, I LOVE to vape) is that people want instant gratification with no thought going into it. A poster mentioned that with cigarettes, you buy them and a lighter and you're good to go. That's it. PV's have a lot of bells and whistles. The simple designs just don't work. Battery life stinks, pre filled cartos are gross.
That's why I went with the Super T Precise line. Buy batteries a couple times a year and then all I have to worry about are attys and liquids. Love the saying "keep it simple, stupid". Some of these vendors seem to be carrying so many different configurations but that's what it is folks, marketing.
Sure simple is good, and that's why I tend to point most new vapers towards a Joye510 or eGo/Riva. They are simple devices that work. Out of 50 people (in person, I've lost count online) that I've given advice to, 80% are vaping, another 10-15% are vaping and smoking. Most think I'm crazy for using a big ProVari + MAP tank.
Dude, seriously. 5 bucks worth of adapters. Anybody want to put up a "box of useless parts" in the for sale section at ECF?
I'm not a "toller" but I do question the commitment to staying off cigs. By the way, no one HAS to quit. Not if you don't want to. Most do, but some need more than PVs in their current state can offer. It is possible to find that "more" and not smoke at the same time. PVs may play a part in that commitment to not smoke, or they may not. It all boils down to choice. It depends on the user, full stop. Tell your friend to check out casaa.org if they really want to discover all the smoke-free, harm reducing alternatives out there. There are other smoke-free alternatives; the most important part is saving lives and health, not pissing matches over the best gear.
I'm not a "toller" but I do question the commitment to staying off cigs. By the way, no one HAS to quit. Not if you don't want to. Most do, but some need more than PVs in their current state can offer. It is possible to find that "more" and not smoke at the same time. PVs may play a part in that commitment to not smoke, or they may not. It all boils down to choice. It depends on the user, full stop. Tell your friend to check out casaa.org if they really want to discover all the smoke-free, harm reducing alternatives out there. There are other smoke-free alternatives; the most important part is saving lives and health, not pissing matches over the best gear.
I agree ecigs are not for everyone.
But, a few days of reading in here can educate would-be vapers and save them money/frustration. We began with the SmokeStik (model 4081) and it took. After reading more we went to the M401, then the 510 and now the eGo. We've never been disappointed in any of these models or frustrated to the point that we even considered quitting ecigs. We found each model effective but each new one a little more to our liking.
We're not young "techies" who like to play with a new interest or electronic toy. I'm 60, my wife is 53, and I smoked for over 40 years.
IMO, anyone who quits trying ecigs because of frustration didn't do their homework or weren't ready to quit smoking cigarettes in the first place. Just my two cents.
But, a few days of reading in here can educate would-be vapers and save them money/frustration. We began with the SmokeStik (model 4081) and it took. After reading more we went to the M401, then the 510 and now the eGo. We've never been disappointed in any of these models or frustrated to the point that we even considered quitting ecigs. We found each model effective but each new one a little more to our liking.
We're not young "techies" who like to play with a new interest or electronic toy. I'm 60, my wife is 53, and I smoked for over 40 years.
IMO, anyone who quits trying ecigs because of frustration didn't do their homework or weren't ready to quit smoking cigarettes in the first place. Just my two cents.
I do understand the frustration of having parts and then upgrading to a pv that is not compatible...but, being a noob myself, even I was quickly able to discover that you can buy adapters relatively cheaply that enable the user to interchange parts, ie, 808 to 501 adapter allows you to use your 808 battery with 501 attys and carts, etc., etc..
Also, when I'm buying a new product and have found a forum full friendly individuals who have actually been using these products, you can bet that I would seek out their opinions and expertise first before relying on the opinion of a general shop keeper whose main goal is to offload his inventory.
I was fortunate in being on a fixed income - I HAD to do my research before I bought. Even so, that "$65 Starter Kit" needed another order of cartomizers (still using pre-filled as we speak) and thaty was another $40.
Thinking that would last me the month, I soon found the estimate of a pack per prefilled carto is mostly pure buffalo chips. So re-do the budget cuz I'll need about twice the carto's I had expected.
Don't get me wrong, I love the journey I have begun to break my 40 plus year slavery to analogs but for many, it's more than time. The actual cost which isn't a factor to most can make the desire to change, even with plenty of research, almost cost prohibitive for some of us.
I'll be doing some refills and topping off when I can order a supply of e-juice. It IS worth the time and hassle for me. I just need top pick the brains of some e-cig "old-timers" to find where to shave a buck or two until I can get back on my analog budget.
Thinking that would last me the month, I soon found the estimate of a pack per prefilled carto is mostly pure buffalo chips. So re-do the budget cuz I'll need about twice the carto's I had expected.
Don't get me wrong, I love the journey I have begun to break my 40 plus year slavery to analogs but for many, it's more than time. The actual cost which isn't a factor to most can make the desire to change, even with plenty of research, almost cost prohibitive for some of us.
I'll be doing some refills and topping off when I can order a supply of e-juice. It IS worth the time and hassle for me. I just need top pick the brains of some e-cig "old-timers" to find where to shave a buck or two until I can get back on my analog budget.
I've only been vaping for a week, but as an engineer it took me over a week to decide which starter kit to buy (didn't find this forum until yesterday). When I bought the kit I knew nothing about 808 or 901 ect. I was using other criteria to make my decision, not tech specs.
My goal was to spend less than my normal 3 carton trip to the tobacco store to get started and have enough product to last me at least as long as three cartons would. I am satisfied with what I have for the moment and I'm not smoking cigarettes, which is my main goal.
I came across this forum yesterday and found out that the is a whole world of vaping out there that I was unaware of. Tons of cool products and mods can be had. My first instinct was 'Maybe I should buy one of those...'. After sleeping on it, I decided that I would do better to wait and see how this all shakes out. I was fortunate in that my starter kit is 808 based and I've already bought some accessories from another company that work with my system.
Eventually, a set of standards will be reached. Well, more likely a few sets of competing standards. At this point I think you'll start to see these showing up in brick & mortar stores. Right now I see a hundred 'get rich quick' companies out there all shooting for the short term money and a few larger ones all trying to become 'The Standard'.
There will always be a niche for the modders and keeners, but I think that there will be a mainstream market that will dominate once this all shakes out. I will stick to my 808 for a while until I can see where this is all headed.
My goal was to spend less than my normal 3 carton trip to the tobacco store to get started and have enough product to last me at least as long as three cartons would. I am satisfied with what I have for the moment and I'm not smoking cigarettes, which is my main goal.
I came across this forum yesterday and found out that the is a whole world of vaping out there that I was unaware of. Tons of cool products and mods can be had. My first instinct was 'Maybe I should buy one of those...'. After sleeping on it, I decided that I would do better to wait and see how this all shakes out. I was fortunate in that my starter kit is 808 based and I've already bought some accessories from another company that work with my system.
Eventually, a set of standards will be reached. Well, more likely a few sets of competing standards. At this point I think you'll start to see these showing up in brick & mortar stores. Right now I see a hundred 'get rich quick' companies out there all shooting for the short term money and a few larger ones all trying to become 'The Standard'.
There will always be a niche for the modders and keeners, but I think that there will be a mainstream market that will dominate once this all shakes out. I will stick to my 808 for a while until I can see where this is all headed.
If you want it to work, you're going to have to put in a little bit of effort. That's all there is to it. If you aren't willing to put any effort into it, then you probably aren't all that motivated to switch from smoking to vaping in the first place. There are so many options, it's not funny.
Want it really easy, despite the cost? Buy disposables. More expensive than smoking, but just as easy. Pull the disposable out of the box and puff on it until it dies, rinse and repeat.
Want to switch to vaping and save money at the same time? Still fairly easy. Buy a good starter kit (like the eGo), a couple of extra batteries and atomizers, and some e-liquid that sounds decent. Only buy more when you need to. You can easily cut your costs down to more than half of what you spent on smoking. Yeah, it's a little bit of work, but you're saving money... and isn't your health worth the extra time and effort?
Don't care about saving money, and just want to feel better? Mods are where it's at. With a good variable voltage/power mod, or a "juicebox" type of mod (or two... one for a backup) and whatever atty/carto/tank system you want to use, you'll be in vaping heaven, and your lungs will thank you. This takes more effort and research, but the benefits vastly outweigh the time spent, by a wide margin.
So the question remains... how badly do you want to quit smoking by switching to vaping? Enough to do your homework? E-cigs take some work.
I've got a huge box full of e-cig supplies. I spend easily $250 a month on this stuff. I've got so many different kinds of atomizers/cartomizers it would make your head spin... and I use all of them. Adapters are nice. I put all of the time and effort into e-cigs because of one reason... my health is worth it. I'd love to be able to play with my grandchildren (when my kids have them in the future) without gasping for air.
Want it really easy, despite the cost? Buy disposables. More expensive than smoking, but just as easy. Pull the disposable out of the box and puff on it until it dies, rinse and repeat.
Want to switch to vaping and save money at the same time? Still fairly easy. Buy a good starter kit (like the eGo), a couple of extra batteries and atomizers, and some e-liquid that sounds decent. Only buy more when you need to. You can easily cut your costs down to more than half of what you spent on smoking. Yeah, it's a little bit of work, but you're saving money... and isn't your health worth the extra time and effort?
Don't care about saving money, and just want to feel better? Mods are where it's at. With a good variable voltage/power mod, or a "juicebox" type of mod (or two... one for a backup) and whatever atty/carto/tank system you want to use, you'll be in vaping heaven, and your lungs will thank you. This takes more effort and research, but the benefits vastly outweigh the time spent, by a wide margin.
So the question remains... how badly do you want to quit smoking by switching to vaping? Enough to do your homework? E-cigs take some work.
I've got a huge box full of e-cig supplies. I spend easily $250 a month on this stuff. I've got so many different kinds of atomizers/cartomizers it would make your head spin... and I use all of them. Adapters are nice. I put all of the time and effort into e-cigs because of one reason... my health is worth it. I'd love to be able to play with my grandchildren (when my kids have them in the future) without gasping for air.
Wow, spellcheck mixed up one of my words and it becomes a 'thing'. Meant trolling. No matter how many people here have said that you can use adapters to fix nearly any incompatibility issue, you harp about a box of useless parts. Exactly why are they useless? You simply do not say. Because you didn't research and bought a proprietary brand? Well, sorry, that is simply not an industries fault.
And I'm not sure what impression you have, but nearly everyone in the states, unless maybe if they happen to live next to a big reputable company, buys online also. The cheap, usually proprietary brands can be found in gas stations, but certainly not the bigger brands. We all had to research and possibly buy a couple we didn't prefer until we found one that worked for us...just the way it is.
And just because the tech world settles on a specific type of technology, does not make them the same. Every brand will have its own version and several models of that version with the latest and greatest new features. So, sorry, poor example.
*Droid
And I'm not sure what impression you have, but nearly everyone in the states, unless maybe if they happen to live next to a big reputable company, buys online also. The cheap, usually proprietary brands can be found in gas stations, but certainly not the bigger brands. We all had to research and possibly buy a couple we didn't prefer until we found one that worked for us...just the way it is.
And just because the tech world settles on a specific type of technology, does not make them the same. Every brand will have its own version and several models of that version with the latest and greatest new features. So, sorry, poor example.
*Droid
Thanks goodness we have so many great resources to share ideas and get help with all this stuff. IMHO there are so many comparisons to be made with other products in everyday life. Some people know the ins and outs and technical details of something, others don't care so much how it works as long as it works. In either case there are companies out there that will help. You can buy mac components and claim that somehow the computer industry failed and will eventually collapse because those parts won't work on your pc, or you can ask the salesperson at the computer store what will work with your pc and get the right parts the first time.
I think vaping might fail due to other pressures but definitely not due to complexity. Yeah, it's tricky at first but you should get a grasp on it fairly quickly. Vaping is a niche market at best. What % of the population smokes these days? Less than 20% probably. The % of vapers must be even less than that because it's comprised of current and ex- smokers. If vaping ever becomes something other than a niche market I think you will see some standardization at the top. It will be whatever size/threading/flavor that really had good buzz and promotion and it will be ubiquitous. The eGo/riva style looks like an early favorite for that spot. Give the industry some time and all the pieces will fall into place. Early adopters always run into the issue of obsolescence and imcompatability. There's not much that can be done about that.
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