xpen - I had meant to say in my previous post, I'm no certified Vapologist (but I'll take credit for 1st use of the term, if due).
Thanks for the opening.
Wick Matreials and Properties
- Thread starter Cool_Breeze
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xpen - I had meant to say in my previous post, I'm no certified Vapologist (but I'll take credit for 1st use of the term, if due).
Thanks for the opening.
...seems I can no longer edit the OP.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...355501-different-cottons-different-wicks.html
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...355501-different-cottons-different-wicks.html
Cool,
Please read this http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...74-vg-pipe-tobacco-essense-6.html#post6036410
If you're going to have Note #1 at all, it seems to me that it applies equally to everything. However, after reading the link above, you may decide to remove it altogether. Or you can wait a little while and I'll update you. I just asked for an Update for 100% VG by itself, 100% VG with 5% PGA, and 100% VG with 5% Water, to compare to his posted 100% VG with 10% and 20% Water.
I'm guessing that you already know that this Acrolein issue only applies to VG. Acrolein can be formed and released if the Coil Temp gets over 260C. It has nothing to do with Wick Construction - only Coil Temp. I'm really not sure where your Formaldehyde thing comes from. Can you share about that with me?
I'll get back to you when I hear from Kurt,
100%VG
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That happened to me. I think it happens after a certain number of replies. Maybe you could ask an ECF Official about it. It just occurred to me that any future such things might be listed in an attachment that would show up like my drawing did in my original post under http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-mod-using-glass-tube-tank-4.html#post8293273. I'd think that in the case of a Spreadsheet, uploaded as an Attachment, you could edit that Spreadsheet and maintain the appearance of the OP. Just be sure to set the Print Area to the size of the pertinent data only, so the whole thing doesn't show up.
Kinda late now, but it may help in the future.
100%VG
100%VG - Thanks for the comments. I'll try to follow up on this when I get caught up.
The Acrolein bit came up from a reference to a reference posted by another. It seemed to be about the burning of the material itself. I didn't notice that VG was part of what was referenced. I'll see if I can revisit the whole thing. If VG is the culprit, you are right in that this thread is about wick materials.
Thanks for the tips on the attachment/spreadsheet, etc.
The Acrolein bit came up from a reference to a reference posted by another. It seemed to be about the burning of the material itself. I didn't notice that VG was part of what was referenced. I'll see if I can revisit the whole thing. If VG is the culprit, you are right in that this thread is about wick materials.
Thanks for the tips on the attachment/spreadsheet, etc.
Cool,
According to OttoBahn...
May have to do with your post being the OP of the thread...(or if you're wanting the thread deleted/hidden) you can click the Report Icon (triangle next to Blog this Post) of the post you're concerned about, and ask a moderator for assistance.
Found this under http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/site-feedback-help/371814-how-do-you-edit-post.html
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That's a different matter... here, it's about cellulose-based materials releasing acrolein when burning; there are many papers/studies available on this subject matter, I'd take it for granted.
Then it may also be the case that when VG boils it releases acrolein as well, I don't know, but that does not invalidate the above statement.
The formaldheyde release was mentioned in one of the papers linked in the original post, above or below depending on your forum settings
, but actually I'm not sure it applies to cotton (or other cellulose-based materials).So, given that we're speaking about wicks here, and not e-liquids, I'd leave note #1 in place, even though it does definitely not apply to SS mesh or ceramic for instance (as already remarked)...
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That's a different matter... here, it's about cellulose-based materials releasing acrolein when burning; there are many papers/studies available on this subject matter, I'd take it for granted.
Then it may also be the case then when VG boils it releases acrolein as well, I don't know, but that does not invalidate the above statement.
The formaldheyde release was mentioned in one of the papers linked in the original post, above or below depending on your forum settings
So, given that we're speaking about wicks here, and not e-liquids, I'd leave note #1 in place, even though it does definitely not apply to SS mesh or ceramic for instance (as already remarked)...
Seems a reasonable explanation, xpen...and saved me some work. Thanks.
That's a different matter... here, it's about cellulose-based materials releasing acrolein when burning; there are many papers/studies available on this subject matter, I'd take it for granted.
Then it may also be the case that when VG boils it releases acrolein as well, I don't know, but that does not invalidate the above statement.
The formaldheyde release was mentioned in one of the papers linked in the original post, above or below depending on your forum settings
So, given that we're speaking about wicks here, and not e-liquids, I'd leave note #1 in place, even though it does definitely not apply to SS mesh or ceramic for instance (as already remarked)...
Hello xpen,
Dang it, son. Every time I turn around, there's another issue to be concerned about. The only source of Acrolein I've heard about was from VG, or other forms of Glycerin, when it gets too hot, like burning Fat in a Skillet on the Stove. This guy Kurt, in the link I included, seems to think that the Stove Top is you're biggest concern, and that it's simply not an issue of concern related to VG and E-Cigs. So just as I breathed a sigh of relief, I got this thing from you.
And the only issue I've heard to date related to Formaldehyde was in one particular blend of one particular E-Liquid brand that was made in China. And if you're not sure that the statement belongs there under Cotton, then who suggested that it should be there in the first place? And why are you defending the post it supposedly came from? I'm not trying to say that I'm 100% Up on everything, but Dang it, there's so much disinformation flying around, from several sources that are only trying to Hurt our chances of being able to Keep our e-cigs, that I'm not taking this "Hook, Line, and Sinker" without more than a vague reference.
So I'd really appreciate it if you could be more specific about the sources of your information. And I say sources, because a single reference is not necessarilly based on any verifyable research to back up a statment of such importance, and could be made by anyone, with any agenda. This is not a Scientific way to do things. I like to try to stay on top of every issue I become aware of, and research it for myself. You've really given me nothing to go on.
But then again, if I read you correctly, you're talking about the release of these things when the Cotton, or whatever, burns, due to a dry wick. Correct me if I'm wrong about that, but if I'm right, well, that's really only where Silica Wick (and Fiberglass, etc.) becomes a real problem too - when the wick gets too dry, and maybe after it's been in use for an extended period. And for Cotton (I promise you!), I would not be surprised to read your source information, and find that it's still E-Liquid related, unless said Cotton is not Pure, 100% Cotton, thus not meeting up with all the precautions that have been given for finding Safe Cotton within this Post. So PLEASE, how about a little information on that Source?
Whatever the case, if it's going to be mentioned in such a fashion under this Post (or any other for that matter), then there really should be some specifics about it attached, in links, or some other form, that can be referenced. And it really shouldn't be so easily accepted as Fact without having seen and fully understood such documentation, before being posted. Or at least, that's the way I feel about it. "Sounds good to me" is NOT good enough for ME. And if it's only due to the wick being too dry, then why not just state that this is the cause of said concern, and be clear about the issue? And anyway, even if Cotton does put our your Nasties when it gets too hot, it's going to burn up and destroy itself, rather than lingering on and on like Silica does, continuing to Shard you, so Cotton is still a lot Safer than Silica. And neither Cotton, nor Acrolein, nor Formaldehyde will cause any Permanent Damage. So NO, I'm sorry, but I'm not buying it just like that.
So xpen, brother, can you help me here? Please? This freakin' Roller Coaster Ride of Issue after Issue is really getting tiresome. I'm about ready to give it all up. Nope, not go back to smokes, but just quit altogether and breathe the Air!!!
OTOH, after a long, deep, cleansing breath, I've decided to decide that it's simply a "not 100% Cotton" issue, or another E-Liquid issue, until proven different. Nobody else has to agree with me, but without more to go on, that's where I stand on this one.
So come on everyone. If you've got something to share on this, with some real research to back it up, then step up to the plate, and lay it on me. I'd honestly be glad to hear it, if it exists, either way. Until then, and I'm really fighting getting Rude, but just keep on walkin' and take the silly messes down the hall.
God Bless America!!!
100%VG
Wow! Lay on us why don't you To save you time, I only make one reference, and is to another thread that I learned most of what I know about alternative wicks.
I couldn't reference everything I've learned in the last 6 months or so, but I understand you want some concrete answers, or a pointer in the right direction. Most of the information I have is from the http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/modding-forum/284030-wick-materials-safe-vs-dangerous.html which, at the time was 2500-3000 comments long. I read every comment and followed up on every link/piece of information I could. It took me over a week of evenings to get through it. Many interesting discoveries and information to be had, but man, one looong read. If I had realized the importance/value of some of those links at the time, I would have copied them off to a permanent location.
I have come to the conclusion that vaping is safer than smoking, and that vaping on cotton is safer than silica. To what degree, exactly will be told by our health 20 years from now. I'm amazed that a board of this size, with so many members manages to not get disrespectful with each other; especially due to the addiction that most of us are trying/have overcome. Some are just happy they found some useful information and are trying to pass it on. I totally agree that citing links with any health related issue is important; although I don't always do it. I've read the information, done my own research and am convinced. I give my opinion to others; usually stating that it is, just my opinion. I attempt to be accurate (like my comment to you about adding some water to my VG mix).
Coolbreeze's attempt to consolidate the information I think is great! It's a work-in-progress and I look forward to seeing what it will become once we've got more folks who've added their experience. I'm one of the apparent few who cannot stand bamboo. It tastes horrible with peppermint and/or menthol (imo). I tried SS a few times; too much work for me. And that's coming from a guy who's gone nuts for an Ody clone
To save you time, I only make one reference, and is to another thread that I learned most of what I know about alternative wicks. I couldn't reference everything I've learned in the last 6 months or so, but I understand you want some concrete answers, or a pointer in the right direction. Most of the information I have is from the http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/modding-forum/284030-wick-materials-safe-vs-dangerous.html which, at the time was 2500-3000 comments long. I read every comment and followed up on every link/piece of information I could. It took me over a week of evenings to get through it. Many interesting discoveries and information to be had, but man, one looong read. If I had realized the importance/value of some of those links at the time, I would have copied them off to a permanent location.
I have come to the conclusion that vaping is safer than smoking, and that vaping on cotton is safer than silica. To what degree, exactly will be told by our health 20 years from now. I'm amazed that a board of this size, with so many members manages to not get disrespectful with each other; especially due to the addiction that most of us are trying/have overcome. Some are just happy they found some useful information and are trying to pass it on. I totally agree that citing links with any health related issue is important; although I don't always do it. I've read the information, done my own research and am convinced. I give my opinion to others; usually stating that it is, just my opinion. I attempt to be accurate (like my comment to you about adding some water to my VG mix).
Coolbreeze's attempt to consolidate the information I think is great! It's a work-in-progress and I look forward to seeing what it will become once we've got more folks who've added their experience. I'm one of the apparent few who cannot stand bamboo. It tastes horrible with peppermint and/or menthol (imo). I tried SS a few times; too much work for me. And that's coming from a guy who's gone nuts for an Ody clone
Whoa man, that was some writing
[unfortunately I do not have the advantage of being a native English speaker/writer/reader, so I'll try to keep this within my (second) language skills]
Thanks for your post, 100% VG, I've found it interesting as you've raised some good points IMO.
I'm under the impression that you haven't fully read the posts above, nor the papers linked, though... I was the poster of the references leading Cool Breeze to add the acrolein note, that's why I defend that position. Not because it's mine, that is, but because I think it's correct.
I always tend to back what I say, either with numbers or references, when I think a topic may need such a backing; BTW, to me "reference" means papers/studies, more than forum threads; no offence intended.
Nevertheless, as already stated, I'm not a chemist, nor an MD, by training... I'm just an IT guy, FWIW, so I may be blatantly wrong on health/chemistry issues. That's why forums exist, in the end, to share and refine information.
My intent here was to add some - presumably sound & factual - information, possibly useful to others. Definitely not to be alarmistic.
I fully agree with JazzyTech: I find vaping safer than smoking, and basically that's it. Nevertheless, I always try to gather more info for bettering my vaping experience, and in the end to offer my lungs a chance to enjoy it for longer
I presume (hope) people on this forum to be ex-smokers, or possibly smokers, thus I see no real reason to be worried about a bit (more) of acrolein. I've smoked so much shyte in my past smoker life that some more may hardly make a difference I think.
The message from me was simply "don't let your cotton wick go dry and burn/char", if anything because of the acryd smell it'd emit; then if the acryd smell depends on acrolein or something else, hell who cares. It's just a professional habit for me, trying to understand how/why things happen.
God bless America, indeed, and possibly the rest of the world as well
P.S. I've written the above text in chunks, so it may sound a bit disconnected... my apologies, in case.
[unfortunately I do not have the advantage of being a native English speaker/writer/reader, so I'll try to keep this within my (second) language skills]
Thanks for your post, 100% VG, I've found it interesting as you've raised some good points IMO.
I'm under the impression that you haven't fully read the posts above, nor the papers linked, though... I was the poster of the references leading Cool Breeze to add the acrolein note, that's why I defend that position. Not because it's mine, that is, but because I think it's correct.
I always tend to back what I say, either with numbers or references, when I think a topic may need such a backing; BTW, to me "reference" means papers/studies, more than forum threads; no offence intended.
Nevertheless, as already stated, I'm not a chemist, nor an MD, by training... I'm just an IT guy, FWIW, so I may be blatantly wrong on health/chemistry issues. That's why forums exist, in the end, to share and refine information.
My intent here was to add some - presumably sound & factual - information, possibly useful to others. Definitely not to be alarmistic.
I fully agree with JazzyTech: I find vaping safer than smoking, and basically that's it. Nevertheless, I always try to gather more info for bettering my vaping experience, and in the end to offer my lungs a chance to enjoy it for longer
I presume (hope) people on this forum to be ex-smokers, or possibly smokers, thus I see no real reason to be worried about a bit (more) of acrolein
. I've smoked so much shyte in my past smoker life that some more may hardly make a difference I think.The message from me was simply "don't let your cotton wick go dry and burn/char", if anything because of the acryd smell it'd emit; then if the acryd smell depends on acrolein or something else, hell who cares. It's just a professional habit for me, trying to understand how/why things happen.
God bless America, indeed, and possibly the rest of the world as well
P.S. I've written the above text in chunks, so it may sound a bit disconnected... my apologies, in case.
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Whoa man, that was some writing
[unfortunately I do not have the advantage of being a native English speaker/writer/reader, so I'll try to keep this within my (second) language skills]
Thanks for your post, 100% VG, I've found it interesting as you've raised some good points IMO.
I'm under the impression that you haven't fully read the posts above, nor the papers linked, though... I was the poster of the references leading Cool Breeze to add the acrolein note, that's why I defend that position. Not because it's mine, that is, but because I think it's correct.
I always tend to back what I say, either with numbers or references, when I think a topic may need such a backing; BTW, to me "reference" means papers/studies, more than forum threads; no offence intended.
Nevertheless, as already stated, I'm not a chemist, nor an MD, by training... I'm just an IT guy, FWIW, so I may be blatantly wrong on health/chemistry issues. That's why forums exist, in the end, to share and refine information.
My intent here was to add some - presumably sound & factual - information, possibly useful to others. Definitely not to be alarmistic.
I fully agree with JazzyTech: I find vaping safer than smoking, and basically that's it. Nevertheless, I always try to gather more info for bettering my vaping experience, and in the end to offer my lungs a chance to enjoy it for longer
I presume (hope) people on this forum to be ex-smokers, or possibly smokers, thus I see no real reason to be worried about a bit (more) of acrolein
The message from me was simply "don't let your cotton wick go dry and burn/char", if anything because of the acryd smell it'd emit; then if the acryd smell depends on acrolein or something else, hell who cares. It's just a professional habit for me, trying to understand how/why things happen.
God bless America, indeed, and possibly the rest of the world as well
P.S. I've written the above text in chunks, so it may sound a bit disconnected... my apologies, in case.
Thank you, sir, for clearing that up. And in this case, I really think such warnings about Acrolein and Formaldehyde should be totally removed from the Chart in the OP, unless anyone can find a reason not to. Those two things might be better placed in an E-Liquid Materials and Properties Chart, but of course, that is not my decision. Still, you have my Vote on the subject, assuming I'm allowed one.
While it's true that I have not made it through the over 4300 entries in Wick material. Safe vs Dangerous., I am over 2/3 of the way though it all, while still following the current material, and studying linked materials, and other topics and issues, as I make it though the 4300 items there. So it's really a whole lot more than the 4300 items there, when you add in all the other linked stuff, with its linked stuff, and other topics. But I have followed every trail, and researched every issue along the way. I'm not taking any one person's word for anything, about anything, any more. It's been quite a daunting task to take on, but I am fervently following through, as the Safety of the whole thing, in its entirety, is something I am passionate about.
I have been saving everything in Documents for future reference, saving links, and even thread numbers, and rebuttal materials that have satisfied my curiosities and concerns. I have seen references to Acrolein (not Formaldehyde yet, other than the one E-Liquid, which really wasn't surprising to find), and I have satisfied my concerns about every issue along the way.
As far as E-Liquids go, I have purchased the Purest Unflavored 100% VG Nic and 100% VG USP Base liquids I could find, and I mix my own, because I really don't trust what a manufactured store-bought E-Liquid product might have in it - especially one from China. And what do we find?... Formaldehyde. No big surprise. Though I have to admit that this was probably due to an Artificial Flavoring that was added. Even still... Moving on.
Not being totally convinced that Acrolein is still a non-issue, because of the development of VV and VW Mods, I have asked Kurt (from the Pipe Tobacco Extraction page) for some updated information concerning Acrolein, with respect to the higher Coil Temps brought into existence by Variable Voltage and Variable Wattage devices, and asked for some additional information. I'm hoping he will participate with me on that. However, I do have to agree with him that Acrolein isn't a Major Issue, because after one bad hit, you are NOT going to do it again, and you WILL immediately address the problem. And, Acrolein does not create a long term problem as far as health, like Silica does, and Silica is really why we are all here, studying this stuff (here, and Safe v Dangerous Wicks). I'm just curious to know if the higher Coil Temps can make Acrolein be more of an issue than it was before. It seems to me that the whole Acrolein issue was brought into existence in the first place as a Scare Tactic, based on knowledge from the Frying Pan thing, so when someone saw Glycerin in e-cigs, they jumped on it, although I could be wrong. I've definitely been wrong before, and I'm kinda used to it, and because of that, I try to be careful. I'm the first to admit it, too, when I have been wrong. So again, this is more of a curiosity thing than a real concern.
OK, with all of that said, I thank you again, xpen, for your honesty, and for replying to clarify the situation. At least I can breath easier now. I guess we'll all see what the Next Issue is, but I could really enjoy a break from issues for a while. Actually, the Next Issue is the FDA, and this is another reason I am so passionate about removing all the disinformation. So please, let's be careful about what we post, as others, espcecillay Newbies, are like to take it as Fact.
And Yes, Definitely, God Bless the Whole World!!!
100%VG
BTW - your English seems fine to me.
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Sorry, there's a misunderstanding... I wasn't referring to the gigantic thread "Wicks and materials. Safe vs. Dangerous", I was referring to post #11 of this very same thread
As you see I've mentioned 3 links there, just as an example out of dozens I may have linked, where there's clear mention of acrolein release from burning cotton. BTW formaldheyde is mentioned at page III of the first document linked.
So, honesty for honesty, I think you should start reading those documents (and possibly others) in order to build up an informed opinion on acrolein release from cotton.
Note: quite frankly, I don't give a damn if note #1 stays, or gets nuked... It's a non-issue from my point of view.
I do know there's a problem there, small as it may be, and that's enough for me. My post was for making others aware of a possible issue with cotton wicks. But apparently I didn't do a good job at that... My bad.
That said, it's been a pleasure to cross swords with you, sir, and I hope our paths will cross again
P.S. as good as my English may appear (thank you, btw), it takes some serious effort to write complex sentences and thoughts in a foreign language w/o compromising the exact nuances of what you want to express, and possibly w/o inadvertently looking like a jerk. It's a slow process, that's why I try to avoid writing long posts...
As you see I've mentioned 3 links there, just as an example out of dozens I may have linked, where there's clear mention of acrolein release from burning cotton. BTW formaldheyde is mentioned at page III of the first document linked.
So, honesty for honesty, I think you should start reading those documents (and possibly others) in order to build up an informed opinion on acrolein release from cotton.
Note: quite frankly, I don't give a damn if note #1 stays, or gets nuked... It's a non-issue from my point of view.
I do know there's a problem there, small as it may be, and that's enough for me. My post was for making others aware of a possible issue with cotton wicks. But apparently I didn't do a good job at that... My bad.
That said, it's been a pleasure to cross swords with you, sir, and I hope our paths will cross again
P.S. as good as my English may appear (thank you, btw), it takes some serious effort to write complex sentences and thoughts in a foreign language w/o compromising the exact nuances of what you want to express, and possibly w/o inadvertently looking like a jerk. It's a slow process, that's why I try to avoid writing long posts...
Sorry, there's a misunderstanding... I wasn't referring to the gigantic thread "Wicks and materials. Safe vs. Dangerous", I was referring to post #11 of this very same thread
As you see I've mentioned 3 links there, just as an example out of dozens I may have linked, where there's clear mention of acrolein release from burning cotton. BTW formaldheyde is mentioned at page III of the first document linked.
Alrighty then,
I'll start reading. Thanks for pointing that out.
Cool chart, first impressions is that it is personally subjective and based in part on failed/successful experience combined with "what I've heard."
Case in point (Not to even touch the drama related to half of the posts so far): Anyone who understands how, and is able to roll a SS wick and coil that is able to take full advantage of it's capabilities will tell you that SS mesh as a wick is misrepresented in the chart in both wick-ability and flavor, based on the terminology and grades that you have assigned other material. (The wickabiliy of the SS wick is outstanding and should probably be represented as such, the ability to make an outstanding wick can be covered in a different way.)
The performance ability of SS is outstanding in both categories. The talent and ability of an individual to create a perfectly optimal mesh is another category all together. You may want to add, "ease of use" or "level of difficulty", and assign "difficult". At least then it would properly be represented as an outstanding wick, probably best over-all in class, but the level of difficulty achieving it would be foreknown.
Case in point (Not to even touch the drama related to half of the posts so far): Anyone who understands how, and is able to roll a SS wick and coil that is able to take full advantage of it's capabilities will tell you that SS mesh as a wick is misrepresented in the chart in both wick-ability and flavor, based on the terminology and grades that you have assigned other material. (The wickabiliy of the SS wick is outstanding and should probably be represented as such, the ability to make an outstanding wick can be covered in a different way.)
The performance ability of SS is outstanding in both categories. The talent and ability of an individual to create a perfectly optimal mesh is another category all together. You may want to add, "ease of use" or "level of difficulty", and assign "difficult". At least then it would properly be represented as an outstanding wick, probably best over-all in class, but the level of difficulty achieving it would be foreknown.
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Sorry, there's a misunderstanding... I wasn't referring to the gigantic thread "Wicks and materials. Safe vs. Dangerous", I was referring to post #11 of this very same thread
As you see I've mentioned 3 links there, just as an example out of dozens I may have linked, where there's clear mention of acrolein release from burning cotton. BTW formaldheyde is mentioned at page III of the first document linked.
So, honesty for honesty, I think you should start reading those documents (and possibly others) in order to build up an informed opinion on acrolein release from cotton.
Note: quite frankly, I don't give a damn if note #1 stays, or gets nuked... It's a non-issue from my point of view.
I do know there's a problem there, small as it may be, and that's enough for me. My post was for making others aware of a possible issue with cotton wicks. But apparently I didn't do a good job at that... My bad.
That said, it's been a pleasure to cross swords with you, sir, and I hope our paths will cross again
P.S. as good as my English may appear (thank you, btw), it takes some serious effort to write complex sentences and thoughts in a foreign language w/o compromising the exact nuances of what you want to express, and possibly w/o inadvertently looking like a jerk. It's a slow process, that's why I try to avoid writing long posts...
Here we go again,
Item number 1 . . .
HPA-CHaPD-004
A Toxicological Review of the Products of Combustion
This document is not specific enough for me to be concerned about. A statement about Cotton in general does not satisfy me. Cotton products are known to have many things in them, other than Cotton – synthetics, polymers, plastics, medications, glues, dyes, etc. The Wick materials. Safe vs Dangerous. threads, responsible for the generation of the Chart in this OP, have specifically stated that only 100% Cotton should ever be used, with cautions about the various materials that can be found in Cotton, and ways to test for them.
I’m sure if you looked hard enough, you’d find similar statements made about Bamboo, Hemp, and other things. Cotton was mostly likely mentioned because there is so much of it.
So, based on these claims, I destroyed a perfectly good, totally innocent Q-Tip. Then I killed another one. Yes, I Burned them – three times, burning both sides of one Q-Tip, and one more for good measure. I did not smell anything Foul. It smelled exactly like it should. Acroliein has an extremely FOUL smell, so guess what – no Acrolein in relatively clean source of Cotton. When questioned at the Pearly Gates over Killing Cotton, I’m putting it on YOU.
Part of the testing procedures that have been suggested is a Burn Test. If such a Burn Test were to produce such a Fowl Odor as Acrolein, no one would ever use it for something like an E-Cig Wick to being with – EVER. I’ll admit that after a Cotton Wick has been used in an E-Cig, it will in all likelihood have at least some VG on it. But if you paid attention to the data in the Tobacco Extraction thread, it’s really only 100% VG that would have any potential at all to product Acrolein, and the more it’s Thinned, the less likely it is that an E-Cig could produce Acrolein. Even at only 5% Water added, the Boiling Point of the VG is so reduced that the Coil would never get hot enough to produce Acrolein, because Max Coil Temp is limited by the Boiling Point of the E-Lquid.
Therefore, I am convinced that the materials of concern in this document are not 100% Cotton.
Item number 2 . . .
Ligation of the bronchial artery in sheep attenuates early pulmonary changes following exposure to smoke
Previous studies have shown that the bronchial arteries are important in acute pulmonary edema occurring after inhalation of a synthetic smoke containing acrolein, a common smoke toxin. We hypothesized that inhalation of smoke from burning cotton, known to contain acrolein, would produce in sheep acute pulmonary edema that was mediated by the bronchial circulation. We reasoned that occluding the bronchial arteries would eliminate smoke-induced pulmonary edema, whereas occlusion of the pulmonary artery would not.
The animals that received bronchial artery ligation, 120 breaths of cotton smoke alone, or 120 breaths of cotton smoke preceded by bronchial artery ligation were allowed 1 h to stabilize
In an additional seven sheep, we performed a right thoracotomy and ligated the right main pulmonary artery and then exposed these sheep to 120 breaths of cotton smoke.
Did you guys even read this stuff?!!! Synthetic Smoke – 120 Breaths. Come on.
Item number 3 . . .
Comprehensive Review in Toxicology for Emergency Clinicians - Peter D. Bryson
Aldehydes and Acrolein
Aldehydes are among the most important of the lipid-soluble substances. They are produced in significant quantities when cellulose materials, such as wood, cotton, and paper, are burned.
The highly reactive aldehydes irritate mucous membranes. Accordingly, aldehyde gases have been incriminated as one of the casues of pulmonary edema in wood smoke inhalation. Aldehydes that reach the alveolar areas either in a gaseous form or bound to the surface of small particles may also affect the permeability of the alveolar capillary membrane.
Acrolein, a three-carbon aldehyde that is related to formaldehyde, is much more irritating than formaldehyde and has been shown to cause pulmonary edema and death. Acrolein is used in the manufacture of plastics, pharmaceuticals, synthetic fibers, resins, textiles, and herbicides. It is used in sewer treatment, and is a combustion product of cellulose products, including wood, paper, and cotton. Acrolein is a major contributor to the irritancy of cigarettes and photochemical smog. Acroliein is a clear yellow liquid with a pungent odor. It is a direct upper repiratory tract irritant with a stong mucous membrane involvement, giving excellent warning properties. Exposure is both by inhalation of vapors and by skin absorption.
Clinical manifestations include severe pulmonary irritation and intense lacrimation. High concentrations of the vapor can lead to pulmonary edema.
_ _ _
I hope you can appreciate that I had to manually type this out, because I could not copy and paste from this 3rd link. I transcribed everything about Acolein.
But, again, if Acrolein was released from the burning of a Clean, 100% Cotton material, my Q-Tip Test would have blown me away (sorry little Q-Tip). So it is my impression that these documents are not talking about 100% Cotton.
In conclusion, I think we’d need an unbiased Medical Doctor to evaluate these documents, and the validity of the application of this kind of documentation to the use of an E-Cig. So far, they are talking about Fires, and fairly long-term exposure (120 breaths). So xpen, unless you are an MD, while I certainly am not, if you ask me, there’s no way anyone is going to be subjected to 120 breaths of something so repulsive. The only question that remains is whether or not one blast of Acrolein from an E-Cig could possibly be of a strong enough Concentration to cause Pulmonary Edema (Wow, I know how to spell Pulmonary now). Kurt seems to think not.
So for me, I stand by my original stand.
Initially I've thought you were sincerely interested, now I've eventually come to realize there are all of the symptoms of hi-level trolling... Endless posts, argument after argument, rebuttal after rebuttal...
Enough for me.
Cheers
Never question my sincerity. Do you really think I would have spent this much time if I weren't sincere? You can't win your argument without valid supporting information, so you resort to name calling. That's mature.
You admitted yourself that you are talking about Burning Cotton, then you asked me to read your documentation. I did that.
Vague references to burning cotton cannot be taken seriously with so many materials that are cotton-based, with other things in it, but still referred to generically as Cotton.
No one is being subjected to 120 breaths of Acrolein, whatever the source, even if you can find an example of a e-cig producing Acrolein in the first place. Your third document is correct about Acrolein, but makes no mention of it emanating from an E-Cig, only from Fire and Burning. We're not burning wood, nor cotton in a field, nor a house fire, and have taken steps all along the way to be very specific about using 100% Cotton, 100% Sterile, Non-Toxic, and Non-Medicated Cotton for Cotton used in a Wick. Then, on top of that, it has been suggested to Boil the Cotton to clean it, with other precautions given throughout the Safe v Dangerous post.
An E-Cig does not BURN anything, and if a Cotton Wick gets dry, and then hot enough, the Coil will destroy it, removing the threat of repeated exposure.
If you can find a valid example of Acrolein coming from an E-Cig, then cite it. Acrolein can possibly come from VG E-Liquid, but it has been shown on the link I gave that VG is not a source of Acrolein, and you visited that page yourself, and thanked Kurt for his info.
This post is about Wicks, not E-Liquid, and not about anything burning. As far as I'm concerned, this has been a colossal waste of time.
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One of the benefits of switching from smoking to vaping is we no longer have to inhale anything that is burned and consumed by heat/fire. One of the draw backs to silica, cotton, bamboo is that it is possible under the right (wrong?) conditions is that we are consuming solid particulates from burning the wick material.
I don't care how healthy you represent vaping burned cotton to be, I don't want it in my lungs, we have a better choice. If you want to argue over which materials are the least of the evils then I guess it's your prerogative.
This thread was intended to discuss and compare how well each material performs in a set of categories. It has been hi-jacked in order to rant on about "why my way is better than your way (that sucks by the way".) A couple people have turned this thread into a huge pissing contest and made it so not many people even want to read and participate in it.
You've made your point(s), now back off and join a civilized think tank or go away. Add something constructive and don't Lord your "wisdom" over the "dumb masses".
I don't care how healthy you represent vaping burned cotton to be, I don't want it in my lungs, we have a better choice. If you want to argue over which materials are the least of the evils then I guess it's your prerogative.
This thread was intended to discuss and compare how well each material performs in a set of categories. It has been hi-jacked in order to rant on about "why my way is better than your way (that sucks by the way".) A couple people have turned this thread into a huge pissing contest and made it so not many people even want to read and participate in it.
You've made your point(s), now back off and join a civilized think tank or go away. Add something constructive and don't Lord your "wisdom" over the "dumb masses".
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