I heard vivi nova's silica wick is not safe, will this help?

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anavidfan

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I just started to make my own VIVi Nova wicks. It take a bit of practice and even though I have about a dozen premade ones, I thought Id give the cotton wicks a try. I bought some 100% cotton candle wick from amazon and used kanthal wire using the twisted legs on another thread in the "tanks" forum. I made my first one out of silica because I had it on hand and now I will only use the cotton it works great.
Make sure you buy a mulit meter so you dont fry your PV( I try all new heads on my KGO to start with and then only then I place it on my mod) Here are some links:cotton Amazon.com: Cotton Square Braid Candle Wick - #1/0: Arts, Crafts & Sewing.
kantahl resistance wire: Resistance Wire | Silica Wicks
mulitmeter: Cartomizer and Atomizer Ohm Meter
great tutorial that helped me a lot: Vivi Nova SS Wick tutorial - YouTube
 

rolygate

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There is an interesting feature of silica wicks, as used in almost all atomizers and many clearos, in that when a used wick is examined closely, about 50% of its volume seems to have disappeared. Where exactly did it go? If it made it into the vapor, does this tiny volume of silica (repeated frequently) have a negative health impact?

Nobody knows right now. If you're worried you can drill out a driptip and place a slice of RYO cigarette filter in the base, to filter your vape. It reduces the airflow by about half, so is only of any use with very airy heads.

RYO filters are 6mm dia., driptips have a 4mm or 5mm through hole, you can drill out the bottom end 6mm dia by 4mm deep, cut a slice of filter 3mm thick, and insert. Insertion is easy, needs a pin to extract it.

I'd like to see an analysis of a used filter like that, examined for silica fiber presence.
 
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Boden

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There is an interesting feature of silica wicks, as used in almost all atomizers and many clearos, in that when a used wick is examined closely, about 50% of its volume seems to have disappeared. Where exactly did it go? If it made it into the vapor, does this tiny volume of silica (repeated frequently) have a negative health impact?

Nobody knows right now. If you're worried you can drill out a driptip and place a slice of RYO cigarette filter in the base, to filter your vape. It reduces the airflow by about half, so is only of any use with very airy heads.

RYO filters are 6mm dia., driptips have a 4mm or 5mm through hole, you can drill out the bottom end 6mm dia by 4mm deep, cut a slice of filter 3mm thick, and insert. Insertion is easy, needs a pin to extract it.

I'd like to see an analysis of a used filter like that, examined for silica fiber presence.

In process. This is a very complex analysis and may take some time. Conflicting health risk analysis studies are making this even more difficult.

In 50 years of research no one has found a reliable correlation between inhalation of glass fiber (silica fiber) particles and cancers. First, particles of sufficient size 15µ:5µ ( length : diameter ) that have been shown to cause significant cellular damage due to the longevity of the particle in the lungs would have to become airborne . Wet particles do not do this readily and glycol aerosol (condensed mist/fog) particles (~2µ) are too small to act as a carrier. In addition, The human lungs have very good filtration down to 10µ (i.e., less than 10 microns is respirable). Persons with sensitive throat/lungs may experience irritation but a healthy adult should clear and digest most particles that make it to the throat/lungs.

I suspect that the missing wick volume is transferred to the liquid remaning in the tank/cartridge and is washed away after cleaning rinse or trapped in the remaining wick.

This is my preliminary hypothesis and in no way should be interpreted as fact.
 
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Vaptor

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I use 510-tank as tips. Vapor got to travel through the small holes so anything flying should stick on the inside. But if you should get some some wick coming out you'll fell it crunchy between your teeth. Small chance of inhaling it unless you do direct to lung draw which is bad idea for sucking in anything but normal breathing.
 

MrKV

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I use 510-tank as tips. Vapor got to travel through the small holes so anything flying should stick on the inside. But if you should get some some wick coming out you'll fell it crunchy between your teeth. Small chance of inhaling it unless you do direct to lung draw which is bad idea for sucking in anything but normal breathing.

The fibers that have a chance would be microscopic, so I'm pretty sure you're not going to feel it.
 

Moueix

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In process. This is a very complex analysis and may take some time. Conflicting health risk analysis studies are making this even more difficult.

In 50 years of research no one has found a reliable correlation between inhalation of glass fiber (silica fiber) particles and cancers. First, particles of sufficient size 15µ:5µ ( length : diameter ) that have been shown to cause significant cellular damage due to the longevity of the particle in the lungs would have to become airborne . Wet particles do not do this readily and glycol aerosol (condensed mist/fog) particles (~2µ) are too small to act as a carrier. In addition, The human lungs have very good filtration down to 10µ (i.e., less than 10 microns is respirable). Persons with sensitive throat/lungs may experience irritation but a healthy adult should clear and digest most particles that make it to the throat/lungs.

I suspect that the missing wick volume is transferred to the liquid remaning in the tank/cartridge and is washed away after cleaning rinse or trapped in the remaining wick.

This is my preliminary hypothesis and in no way should be interpreted as fact.

Let me be the first to THANK you for your work on this. I think it is awesome that there are members of this community qualified to do research on the health aspects of vaping, and are willing to do this without funding. We all owe you a debt of gratitude for your work in these uncharted waters.
 

Trakitana

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Just got 2 A2T Chinese replicas yesterday (wasn't expecting much considering its low cost, and it was a nice surprise to see they have a good finishing, didn't leak until now and worked flawlessly. They came ready to use, with silica wick. I pre-burned (also with fire) before using but it wasn't tasting as I expected, so today I made a cotton wick to test in it.
Had another nice surprise. The cotton tasted very clean, lots of wicking/vapor.
I won't use silica anymore, because I have no left reasons reason to do so. SS and cotton gives me the purest taste of all other wick material I tested.
I don't know if those fragments of silica can reach my lungs, but I think they look scary under a microscope. Also, I never felt very comfortable when handled it and saw lots of its fragments in my fingers, I was always caring not to inhale or let it get into my eyes.

I'm still curious for the results of the silica safety testings.

Thanks for the thread, I'm learning a lot here. (sorry for eventual mistakes in english)
 

Boden

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I have decided not to publish any photos because of the potential of others to misuse them.

I've come to my conclusion. The answer is... It depends. There are so many variables a conclusive answer is impossible. There are some guide-lines that I have found. Before I describe the commons there are some basics people should know. Synthetic Silica Fiber is not the same as Silica, it is heat treated and drawn. This changes the physical properties of the material. In it's crystalline state silica fractures into very small bits that can be easily inhaled. The accumulation of this dust is what causes Silicosis. Silicosis is not a cancerous or mutagenic effect but more like scaring. It is an accumulation over a long time of dust that clogs and damages the lungs.

Synthetic Silica Fiber does not become a powder that would be easily inhaled into the lungs. The fiber segments that were recovered from airborne accumulation were too large to make it past the pre lung filtration (Cilia). Meaning they will irritate the throat and be coughed or flushed out. This is good, if you have a fiber wick that is shedding you will know it rather quickly. I recommend tossing it out if this happens.

The test I devised was rather simple I used a compressor at 2, 3, and 5 psi to force air into a rebuildable Atty through the air-hole and collected the vapor in a balloon. After each sample was taken the balloon was clamped off to allow settling. After an hour the balloon was slowly deflated and then I took 10mL of denatured alcohol and flushed out the balloon (I washed the balloons out before starting) the alcohol was then evaporated off in a glass dish leaving a sample.

The testing I did was interesting and a bit irritating, literally. I found that if you abuse a wick by using high temperatures (+5v at 2.7Ohms or 9.26W) the breakage was more pronounced. This is clearly because of the more energetic expansion of the liquid into vapor. More particles were ejected into the airstream the higher the voltage became. I freely admit these results are limited to the silica fiber wicks I purchased but the concept should remain constant within minor variations. The airflow pressure was not as much a factor as I thought other than the obvious more is more.

I leave it to you to decide what is right for you. Personally I've re-wicked all my stuff with cotton. Not for safety reasons but I like the sensation it provides and the cost (7$ in organic unbleached yarn = wicks until the end of time)

If I was to rank the currently available wicks according to risk (safest to risky).
1. Cotton
2. Bamboo
3. Unoxidized Stainless Steel
4. Silica fiber
5. Ceramic Fiber

Oxidized Stainless Steel is too risky for me to consider/recommend using because the environmental and temperature control needed to do this correctly is beyond the average person.
 
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j4mmin42

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I have decided not to publish any photos because of the potential of others to misuse them.

I've come to my conclusion. The answer is... It depends. There are so many variables a conclusive answer is impossible. There are some guide-lines that I have found. Before I describe the commons there are some basics people should know. Synthetic Silica Fiber is not the same as Silica, it is heat treated and drawn. This changes the physical properties of the material. In it's crystalline state silica fractures into very small bits that can be easily inhaled. The accumulation of this dust is what causes Silicosis. Silicosis is not a cancerous or mutagenic effect but more like scaring. It is an accumulation over a long time of dust that clogs and damages the lungs.

Synthetic Silica Fiber does not become a powder that would be easily inhaled into the lungs. The fiber segments that were recovered from airborne accumulation were too large to make it past the pre lung filtration (Cilia). Meaning they will irritate the throat and be coughed or flushed out. This is good, if you have a fiber wick that is shedding you will know it rather quickly. I recommend tossing it out if this happens.

The test I devised was rather simple I used a compressor at 2, 3, and 5 psi to force air into a rebuildable Atty through the air-hole and collected the vapor in a balloon. After each sample was taken the balloon was clamped off to allow settling. After an hour the balloon was slowly deflated and then I took 10mL of denatured alcohol and flushed out the balloon (I washed the balloons out before starting) the alcohol was then evaporated off in a glass dish leaving a sample.

The testing I did was interesting and a bit irritating, literally. I found that if you abuse a wick by using high temperatures (+5v at 2.7Ohms or 9.26W) the breakage was more pronounced. This is clearly because of the more energetic expansion of the liquid into vapor. More particles were ejected into the airstream the higher the voltage became. I freely admit these results are limited to the silica fiber wicks I purchased but the concept should remain constant within minor variations. The airflow pressure was not as much a factor as I thought other than the obvious more is more.

I leave it to you to decide what is right for you. Personally I've re-wicked all my stuff with cotton. Not for safety reasons but I like the sensation it provides and the cost (7$ in organic unbleached yarn = wicks until the end of time)

If I was to rank the currently available wicks according to risk (safest to risky).
1. Cotton
2. Bamboo
3. Unoxidized Stainless Steel
4. Silica fiber
5. Ceramic Fiber

Oxidized Stainless Steel is too risky for me to consider/recommend using because the environmental and temperature control needed to do this correctly is beyond the average person.


Wouldn't SS be the most inert wicking material on your list? Not sure how it could be "risky".
 

yuttynutt

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I have decided not to publish any photos because of the potential of others to misuse them.

I've come to my conclusion. The answer is... It depends. There are so many variables a conclusive answer is impossible. There are some guide-lines that I have found. Before I describe the commons there are some basics people should know. Synthetic Silica Fiber is not the same as Silica, it is heat treated and drawn. This changes the physical properties of the material. In it's crystalline state silica fractures into very small bits that can be easily inhaled. The accumulation of this dust is what causes Silicosis. Silicosis is not a cancerous or mutagenic effect but more like scaring. It is an accumulation over a long time of dust that clogs and damages the lungs.

Synthetic Silica Fiber does not become a powder that would be easily inhaled into the lungs. The fiber segments that were recovered from airborne accumulation were too large to make it past the pre lung filtration (Cilia). Meaning they will irritate the throat and be coughed or flushed out. This is good, if you have a fiber wick that is shedding you will know it rather quickly. I recommend tossing it out if this happens.

The test I devised was rather simple I used a compressor at 2, 3, and 5 psi to force air into a rebuildable Atty through the air-hole and collected the vapor in a balloon. After each sample was taken the balloon was clamped off to allow settling. After an hour the balloon was slowly deflated and then I took 10mL of denatured alcohol and flushed out the balloon (I washed the balloons out before starting) the alcohol was then evaporated off in a glass dish leaving a sample.

The testing I did was interesting and a bit irritating, literally. I found that if you abuse a wick by using high temperatures (+5v at 2.7Ohms or 9.26W) the breakage was more pronounced. This is clearly because of the more energetic expansion of the liquid into vapor. More particles were ejected into the airstream the higher the voltage became. I freely admit these results are limited to the silica fiber wicks I purchased but the concept should remain constant within minor variations. The airflow pressure was not as much a factor as I thought other than the obvious more is more.

I leave it to you to decide what is right for you. Personally I've re-wicked all my stuff with cotton. Not for safety reasons but I like the sensation it provides and the cost (7$ in organic unbleached yarn = wicks until the end of time)

If I was to rank the currently available wicks according to risk (safest to risky).
1. Cotton
2. Bamboo
3. Unoxidized Stainless Steel
4. Silica fiber
5. Ceramic Fiber

Oxidized Stainless Steel is too risky for me to consider/recommend using because the environmental and temperature control needed to do this correctly is beyond the average person.

How is ss mesh too risky to list. When dry burning ss mesh it doesn't even put off any smoke or burning smell or anything. So if it is the worst of all of them, how come the most expensive mods out there use ss mesh. I am confused I would expect that the wicks that burn and scorch would be the worst.

Sent from my DROIDX using Xparent Green Tapatalk 2
 

100%VG

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There is an interesting feature of silica wicks, as used in almost all atomizers and many clearos, in that when a used wick is examined closely, about 50% of its volume seems to have disappeared. Where exactly did it go? If it made it into the vapor, does this tiny volume of silica (repeated frequently) have a negative health impact?

Nobody knows right now. If you're worried you can drill out a driptip and place a slice of RYO cigarette filter in the base, to filter your vape. It reduces the airflow by about half, so is only of any use with very airy heads.

RYO filters are 6mm dia., driptips have a 4mm or 5mm through hole, you can drill out the bottom end 6mm dia by 4mm deep, cut a slice of filter 3mm thick, and insert. Insertion is easy, needs a pin to extract it.

I'd like to see an analysis of a used filter like that, examined for silica fiber presence.

Hi rolygate,

Great comment about RYO Filters!!! I'll have to try that until I can start making my own with something like Hemp.

And I loved your Signature!!! Very clever, the way it fades out.

100%VG
 

Cyrus Vap

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More great work Boden, thank you
Synthetic Silica Fiber is not the same as Silica, it is heat treated and drawn. This changes the physical properties of the material. In it's crystalline state silica fractures into very small bits that can be easily inhaled

I find this to be the most comforting component of your post. I know nothing about drawn silica, but I am aware that crystalline silica is an issue. Drawn silica is how much more resilient to fracturing? I'm assuming this has been quantified thoroughly.

I do have to say that when a known vendor on this forum touts his silica wick as safe because its composed of 6 micron strands I am a bit horrified...

The medical dogma that particles 1-5 micron in size are the most dangerous is founded upon deductions from pulmonary physiology and studies of occupational disease (e.g. silicosis). Few things are important to note here:

1) What we can deduce from 'known' physiology/pathogenesis of disease often fails to pan out clinically. 1st year medical students learn this the hard way. Physicians spend the rest of their lives learning it again and again. The valid logical operation from premises fails to hold water, leading to the conclusion that either the premises are at fault or we are missing variables.

2) The diseased population in question (silicosis) has had abundant exposure to particles of ...well, all shapes and sizes. No one has or will compare two populations that were given 1-5 micron particles to inhale vs. >6, or 10, or whatever. It's unethical :)

(As an aside note that they likely also smoke, which impairs the ability of the lungs to clear toxins appropriately, and possibly have a genetic predisposition to fibrogenesis and deranged immune response as this is ultimately what causes, or the most important factor in silicosis, e.g. host response.)

The unlucky patient with silicosis has been exposed to all of it, and for sound reasons, which however may not tell the whole story, we deduce that the particles capable of reaching the terminal airways are to blame.

To put this in somewhat lay terms: the cellular population thought to initiate the disease cascade lives in these terminal spaces. Larger particles *shouldn't* make it that fair as they can be stopped and cleared by other mechanisms 'above.' But particles lodging in the epithelium (lining) of the upper airways maybe able to activate immune responses from there. I repeat, these patients have been exposed to all of it, and I cant find a single source that concludes from this that 10 micron or greater sized particles shouldn't pose a threat, and don't expect to.

(Re: clearance by other mechanisms "above." If you have a few pack-years of cigs under your belt, you may be lacking in this department to begin with)

3) Size is one issue, dose is another. The 'required' dose to active host response and pathogenesis of silicosis (or any pneumoconiosis for that matter) is unknown. "Massive" is a fair guess, but again, this is based on retrospective analysis of the sick and exposed and in vitro study. Only way to know for sure is to make thousands of people sick deliberately, which again, will not happen, at least not unless the government decides to do it and tell us about it 50 years later with a self inflicted slap on the wrist.

All in all my point is that 6 micron vs. 1-5 doesn't make me feel safe. 10 micron may not either.


After an hour the balloon was slowly deflated and then I took 10mL of denatured alcohol and flushed out the balloon (I washed the balloons out before starting) the alcohol was then evaporated off in a glass dish leaving a sample

You measured what you found in the balloon with a light microscope and reticule? Or something else?

How large of a silica particle could a 2 micron glycol particle carry? What about alcohol? :)
 
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Boden

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I used a digital scope with a reticule overlay.

A 2µ particle should only be able to carry a particle about the same size as it's diameter. If a particle was larger it would elongate the particle via surface tension and the fiber would effectively be carrying the particle. I just realized how common sense what I just said was ... sorry.

This is from memory, I was studying how silica fibers fracture and there was a ratio of diameter to length of 1:3 for how small it could get. Think about a piece of wood dowel once the length of the rod gets close to the diameter the amount of force needed to break it in half goes up exponentially, same with drawn silica because of the elongated crystalline structure is much like the cellulose cells in wood. A 6µ diameter strand should not fracture into lengths smaller than 18µ.

The nature of silicosis seems to be scarification of the lungs. Since most cases require a long term exposure to high levels of crystalline silica dust, the volume of fibers needed to produce this damage coming from wicks seems very unlikely.

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp.asp?id=908&tid=185
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp161-c3.pdf
 
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Cyrus Vap

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Thank you for the explanation Boden, nothing wrong with common sense, the simple things I generally find the most difficult to be honest ;)

What were the smallest/largest fragments you found?

And I do agree that vaping is highly unlikely to give an adequate 'dose' to cause problems, despite my concerns. I do always insist on that addendum "we don't know" because establishing a therapeutic or toxic dose of anything is a painstaking process, and though animal studies are of help, human physiology doesn't always play by the same rules. Muddying my reason here is of course the experience of participating in the treatment and management of patients with the disease, which is horrifying, so I admit, I'm biased by this fact.

Despite my concerns, my uncle is a vaper (converted by yours truly) and only uses Ce2s. So if I was THAT worried about it, I suppose I would give him a kick in the groin to change things up :)
 

Boden

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The smallest were right at 20µ (.02mm) and the largest, which occurred only in the 5psi test, were about 1000µ (1mm). I should qualify the 5psi test... No human is going to pull air at that rate unless they are an Olympic swimmer. So if Mr Phelps is vaping he may have problems. :D

edit: I've been doing some thinkin, I think the biggest misunderstanding about this is the difference between crystalline and amorphous silica. They are about as similar as sugar crystals and taffy.
 
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oxygen thief

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Haven't read this whole thread so sorry if someones already said this. If the forum and companies like gotvapes asked for different wicks would the Chinese di it?
If we don't want to change wicks we could at least pull one out or cut them to 1/4". Wouldn't be as good but it would be better.
Could you soak the wicks in vinegar overnight then rinse them real good and would that help?
As much as I like vivi's I would switch to carto's and tanks to get away from the problem.

OTOH, I smoked 1.5 to two packs a day for 40 years and your lungs don't forget esp considering 5 of my immediate family died of lung cancer. Is silica kills me it better hurry.
 

DaveP

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This is a fascinating discussion and will only lead to greater enlightenment of the subject. I've always agreed that a wet wick is much less likely to donate silica particles to the air stream and the mucous membranes in the mouth would likely capture most loose strands. Add to that the fact that we inhale into the mouth and then into our lungs, there's some settling time for loose fibers to attach to the tongue, teeth, and other wet surfaces in the mouth.

That's not a scientific observation by any stretch, but it makes sense that most of what might make it into our mouths would be mitigated by the wet surfaces there. There's also the moist surfaces inside a drip tip that the air must pass through to get into the mouth. You'd think that examining the material inside a drip tip would reveal samples of whatever passes through it.
 
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