Zeller's possible leanings on e-cigs in NY Times

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CarolT

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Joe Nocera on e-cigs again; he interviewed Mitch Zeller. "'When nicotine is attached to smoke particles, it will kill,' said Zeller. 'But if you take that same drug and put it in a patch, it is such a safe medicine that it doesn’t even require a doctor’s prescription.' That paradox helps explain why he believes 'there needs to be a rethink within society on nicotine.'"
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/26/opinion/joe-nocera-smoking-vaping-and-nicotine.html
 

Caro123

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Joe Nocera on e-cigs again; he interviewed Mitch Zeller. "'When nicotine is attached to smoke particles, it will kill,' said Zeller. 'But if you take that same drug and put it in a patch, it is such a safe medicine that it doesn’t even require a doctor’s prescription.' That paradox helps explain why he believes 'there needs to be a rethink within society on nicotine.'"
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/26/opinion/joe-nocera-smoking-vaping-and-nicotine.html
uhmm perhaps he needs to check with BP and perhaps Monsanto I believe their are also quite interested in nicotine
 

Kent C

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While this was the author of the article, Zeller mentioned this elsewhere (as do other TCers)

"But there are still many questions about both their safety and their efficacy. For instance, are smokers using e-cigarettes to quit cigarettes, or they using them to get a nicotine hit at times when they can’t smoke cigarettes?"

This is basically the main source of the 'dual user' argument. My guess and it's just a guess, is that when the idea of patches and gum came up, many TCers thought they may actually be effective in cessation. But likely through studies, they found that most smokers actually did use them only in areas where one could not smoke, then when 'free' to smoke anywhere, they'd use cigarettes. I did this on flights mainly, but I wasn't in other areas where I couldn't smoke - but at certain work areas, I'm guessing that was the case as well.

So imagine the 'expectations' of TCers with patches and gum and then to find out they were only used where one couldn't smoke. Most likely, this was the urge to creating more and more areas of non-smoking, (from these 'unintended consequences' of their 'solution') designated areas, work area bans including in the parking lot or even in your own car IF in the parking lot, etc. etc. All of these were the gradient squeezing out of areas where one could smoke - likely to encourage NRTs or simply out of spite. lol. So the 'advocates' - likely even some of our THRers, were thwarted by this 'dual use' of what they thought were 'safer' alternatives. And this isn't to dismiss the idea of dual users - they exist - some are 'in transition' and some just like to smoke as I did, even though I don't anymore.

What they all missed, imo, was the 'vapor/smoke' factor of the habit which at this point, I'm more certain that it is at least 50% of the habit or more. And contrary to some of the comments about how addictive nicotine is, I (and our studies) find that not to be the case, although I still like the effects of nicotine which I've explained elsewhere - relaxed focus, and the anti-Alzheimer's, anti-Parkinson's, anti-arthritis aspects.

Thanks for posting. The comments are a good read as well.
 

AndriaD

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While this was the author of the article, Zeller mentioned this elsewhere (as do other TCers)

"But there are still many questions about both their safety and their efficacy. For instance, are smokers using e-cigarettes to quit cigarettes, or they using them to get a nicotine hit at times when they can’t smoke cigarettes?"

This is basically the main source of the 'dual user' argument. My guess and it's just a guess, is that when the idea of patches and gum came up, many TCers thought they may actually be effective in cessation. But likely through studies, they found that most smokers actually did use them only in areas where one could not smoke, then when 'free' to smoke anywhere, they'd use cigarettes. I did this on flights mainly, but I wasn't in other areas where I couldn't smoke - but at certain work areas, I'm guessing that was the case as well.

So imagine the 'expectations' of TCers with patches and gum and then to find out they were only used where one couldn't smoke. Most likely, this was the urge to creating more and more areas of non-smoking, (from these 'unintended consequences' of their 'solution') designated areas, work area bans including in the parking lot or even in your own car IF in the parking lot, etc. etc. All of these were the gradient squeezing out of areas where one could smoke - likely to encourage NRTs or simply out of spite. lol. So the 'advocates' - likely even some of our THRers, were thwarted by this 'dual use' of what they thought were 'safer' alternatives. And this isn't to dismiss the idea of dual users - they exist - some are 'in transition' and some just like to smoke as I did, even though I don't anymore.

What they all missed, imo, was the 'vapor/smoke' factor of the habit which at this point, I'm more certain that it is at least 50% of the habit or more. And contrary to some of the comments about how addictive nicotine is, I (and our studies) find that not to be the case, although I still like the effects of nicotine which I've explained elsewhere - relaxed focus, and the anti-Alzheimer's, anti-Parkinson's, anti-arthritis aspects.

Thanks for posting. The comments are a good read as well.

I think it's mostly spite -- it just yanks their crank that anyone anywhere might actually be enjoying themselves. Can't have that! It would be too much like FREEDOM!

Andria
 

Kent C

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I think it's mostly spite -- it just yanks their crank that anyone anywhere might actually be enjoying themselves. Can't have that! It would be too much like FREEDOM!

Andria

I tend to agree, but don't discount that there "at - one - time," were some people who actually meant well. It appears that they have went THR, so I no longer think that is the case with the hardcore TC gang. That said, almost all TCers are anti-rights do gooders, even when or if they 'meant well' :- )
 

AndriaD

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I tend to agree, but don't discount that there "at - one - time," were some people who actually meant well. It appears that they have went THR, so I no longer think that is the case with the hardcore TC gang. That said, almost all TCers are anti-rights do gooders, even when or if they 'meant well' :- )

They think the only "rights" that signify, or even exist, are their own -- nobody else has ANY. Just look at how the smoking bans have nearly taken over the US -- because non-smokers have ALL the rights, and smokers have NONE. Oh, wait... smokers have the right to pay outrageous taxes, and then the right to die horribly.

Andria
 

Kent C

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They think the only "rights" that signify, or even exist, are their own -- nobody else has ANY. Just look at how the smoking bans have nearly taken over the US -- because non-smokers have ALL the rights, and smokers have NONE. Oh, wait... smokers have the right to pay outrageous taxes, and then the right to die horribly.

Andria

And smokers pay for child healthcare, and other programs that non-smokers use but don't pay for, or don't pay as much as smokers do. Smokers should get Congressional medals and awards for how much they fund federally and to the states. :- ) Anyone, the rich, etc. who pay the most taxes are the most hated. Yet those who hate couldn't get what they 'deserve' without those paying their way. It's why Atlas Shrugged makes sense to many :- )
 

Oliver

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I took part in the FDLI annual conference last month where I met Mitch Zeller. I also saw him present at the SFATA conference in Chicago two weeks later, and I so had the opportunity to contrast his statements to two different audiences.

My takeaway is this: Mitch genuinely wants to maximise the potential of e-cigarettes, and the decision will be made on the best available science currently available. BUT: read on.....

The problem are manifold. Firstly, the TCORS centres are, at their level of core-competence, designed to find problems with tobacco products and not opportunities they present. So we have an inherent publication bias where the literature makes more salient the theoretical health risks e-cigs present, rather than the contextual opportunity (i.e. safety relative to smoking). It also takes the products "as they are" and not "as they may become through innovation and sensible regulation".

Secondly, what is being investigated is overwhelmingly focussed at the biological level. This isn't problematic in and of itself, but it does create a situation where the "reality as we see it" barely even surfaces. That is to say, the socio-cultural momentum behind vaping (and it's really important) is completely ignored.

Further, where the science isn't focussed on the biological, it's focussed on population effects (eg, CDC data on youth). Unfortunately this is descriptive science, and not explanatory: So far, little has been done to understand the interplay behind the cultural community, the products, marketing etc and the degree to which smoking is reducing in favor of vaping. This is critical stuff, but it's simply not being funded by anyone.

And speaking of population level effects, it's important to note that behind the scenes there's a very important, very expensive piece of research being carried out: the PATH study. It's been criticised (fairly) by Dr. Farsalinos for making a catastrophic error in one of its items, but overall it will be the best picture of tobacco and vaping related behaviour ever produced (and for $117m it damned well should!).

The FDA now has the first wave of baseline data and, I'm informed by my sources, it paints a very good picture of vaping. But, and this is somewhat unfortunate, the next wave doesn't go out until later in the year, and it won't be until mid 2016 that the full thing is published.

So, back to Mitch - he's very positive on the continuum of risk, but we have no idea how he plans to steer the FDA towards regulations which actually create a positive impact from that insight.

One statement he made to SFATA, which Ihe didn't make at FDLI (although I did make the same point in my FDLI presentation), is that there needs to be a widespread re-education of the public on nicotine. In Mitch's SFATA Q&A I submitted a written question which didn't get asked, annoyingly. It went like this:

"You've stated that there needs to be a public re-education on nicotine, so that the continuum of risk can actually have an impact. But it's unclear to me whose responsibility that might be. Is this something within the purview of the FDA, or would the FDA be able to influence other agencies to take responsibility?"
 

CarolT

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Firstly, the TCORS centres are, at their level of core-competence, designed to find problems with tobacco products
I would clarify this thusly: FDA regulation is intended to be the anti-smokers' tool to outlaw tobacco. It's nothing but a metastasis of the gang at the CDC's Office on Smoking and Health, who've been deliberately committing scientific fraud for six decades to promote this agenda. E-cigs are complicating the picture for them. Hardcore anti-smokers want to outlaw e-cigs too, while another faction wants to keep them legal.
 
Joe Nocera on e-cigs again; he interviewed Mitch Zeller. "'When nicotine is attached to smoke particles, it will kill,' said Zeller. 'But if you take that same drug and put it in a patch, it is such a safe medicine that it doesn’t even require a doctor’s prescription.' That paradox helps explain why he believes 'there needs to be a rethink within society on nicotine.'"
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/26/opinion/joe-nocera-smoking-vaping-and-nicotine.html

So what's new? - Everyone still harping on that old chestnut "Nicotine is a drug". Time to wake up and smell the vape...
 

Bill Godshall

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My takeaway is this: Mitch genuinely wants to maximise the potential of e-cigarettes, and the decision will be made on the best available science currently available.

If Mitch Zeller was even slightly interested in THR or scientific evidence (other than to deceive), he would never have:
- proposed the FDA deeming reg that would ban >99.9% of all e-cigs to protect NRT and cigarette markets,
- stated his intent to submit the Final Rule for his e-cig ban to the White House OMB this summer,
- rejected Reynolds petition to truthfully inform consumers that smokeless tobacco is less hazardous than cigarettes,
- instructed TPSAC to ask Swedish Match lots of "prove a negative" questions and reject SM's MRTP application to truthfully inform consumers that General Snus is less hazardous than cigarettes,
- urged FDA to ban dissolvables in 2012 (as a lobbyist for GSK),
- urged FDA to ban e-cigs in 2009 (as a lobbyist for GSK),
- lobbied Congress to enact the FSPTCA from 2004 - 2009 (for GSK),
- colluded with Philip Morris and CTFK in negotiating and drafting the FSPTCA in 2003/04 to ban the sale of all new tobacco products (via the 2007 Grandfather date, which was originally 2004) and to impose Section 911 to protect NRT and cigarette markets from competition by smokeless tobacco and by any new smokefree alternative (for GSK).

For more than a decade, Mitch Zeller has been an adamant opponent of all THR products (except those sold by Big Pharma, which he touts as lifesaving medicine) who has deceived many naive people to believe that he supports THR and public health.
 

Bill Godshall

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Notice how Zeller is trying to position himself as an objective moderator and adjudicator between e-cig supporters and e-cig opponents, the latter of whom Zeller has heavily funded (and conspired with) to lie to and scare the public about e-cigs and to lobby for the FDA e-cig ban that Zeller proposed.
 

Kent C

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If Mitch Zeller was even slightly interested in THR or scientific evidence (other than to deceive), he would never have:
- proposed the FDA deeming reg that would ban >99.9% of all e-cigs to protect NRT and cigarette markets,
- stated his intent to submit the Final Rule for his e-cig ban to the White House OMB this summer,
- rejected Reynolds petition to truthfully inform consumers that smokeless tobacco is less hazardous than cigarettes,
- instructed TPSAC to ask Swedish Match lots of "prove a negative" questions and reject SM's MRTP application to truthfully inform consumers that General Snus is less hazardous than cigarettes,
- urged FDA to ban dissolvables in 2012 (as a lobbyist for GSK),
- urged FDA to ban e-cigs in 2009 (as a lobbyist for GSK),
- lobbied Congress to enact the FSPTCA from 2004 - 2009 (for GSK),
- colluded with Philip Morris and CTFK in negotiating and drafting the FSPTCA in 2003/04 to ban the sale of all new tobacco products (via the 2007 Grandfather date, which was originally 2004) and to impose Section 911 to protect NRT and cigarette markets from competition by smokeless tobacco and by any new smokefree alternative (for GSK).

For more than a decade, Mitch Zeller has been an adamant opponent of all THR products (except those sold by Big Pharma, which he touts as lifesaving medicine) who has deceived many naive people to believe that he supports THR and public health.

Yep. It's what he does, or doesn't do, not what he says.
 
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