Lol, I've learned a lot from you so far, including "Ms. Buttinsky." I like that word ...
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Dehydration: very serious, with serious and painful consequences
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Heh... well I had a really bad case of it as a kid, but have hopefully matured past it; I saw it in my own son too, this need to correct anyone and everyone's "mistakes". It's not a very attractive quality, so I really hope I *have* moved past it. As I said, I started this thread because a) I was asked to, I think it was you actually, who asked me to, b) I've had to struggle hideously with this problem, and hopefully have learned something from it, and c) "drink more water" can be more harm than cure if the electrolytes have already gotten out of whack from all the dehydration+excessive water drinking.
One thing I've loved about this forum since I got here in January is how helpful everyone is, how pleased to share what they've learned with new vapers or even just prospective vapers (I wasn't yet a vaper when I first got here), and hopefully some of the struggles I've been thru with this very mystifying and stubborn problem can help others to correct or prevent it in themselves. If they keep drinking more and more and more water and yet the problem only gets worse (swollen ankles, sore feet, etc!), maybe they will stick their head in this thread and see what has worked for others. But if they aren't at the point where the symptoms are painful, they'll probably have much the attitude that I did, that dehydration wasn't such an awful thing, so why worry, just drink more water. It's really impossible to teach anything to those who believe they don't need to learn it.
And hey, most people may not have this big a problem, and for them, maybe just drinking more water really will address it, but for those like myself, who already struggled with dehydration for DECADES before I ever heard of vaping, "drink more water" is like telling someone with gangrene to take an aspirin. Or telling someone with clinical depression to "snap out of it!" Or, as I read in a thread yesterday, telling someone with asthma to "take deep breaths" -- never considering that one of the symptoms of asthma is that you CAN'T! take deep breaths! You're lucky to take any breaths at all!
So, anyway, this thread is really for those of us who were not "cured" by "drink more water!" It's a much bigger issue than a simple lack of fluids, and apparently much more difficult to address.
Andria
It might help everyone in the other thread if I posted a link to this one. In fact that is what I might do. As for "butting in", I am not sure if it personally offends me that much. My purpose is to learn something, and if someone wants to correct me, I always welcome their input.
How much of the coconut water over how many days would you recommend? Or is it an ongoing thing?
I feel the same way, actually, that if I'm spouting total nonsense, someone will hopefully correct my ignorance -- I'd welcome it! But, in fact I haven't been around here very long, and my own success with vaping is so mixed (currently still in my dual-user phase, trying to get back to 100% vaping and no smoking!), a lot of people on the forum who've been here a lot longer than I will feel that I have nothing useful to offer, and that's ok; I still feel very much like a newbie, I'm just trying to help out where I can, with what I have learned so far -- much of which completely flies in the face of the "accepted wisdom" -- throat hit is more about PG than about nicotine, unless you're talking about 0mg versus 24mg; drinking too much water can make the electrolyte problem worse; VG can be far worse for asthmatics than any amount of PG; and not everyone needs to start at a whopping 18mg, some of us couldn't really get started at all till we got all the way down to 6mg -- long-experienced vapers don't want to hear those things, because they're pretty much opposite of what they've heard before, and since I'm still a newbie, how on earth would *I* know those things, or anything else about vaping?
But sure, you can post a link, and maybe some will be interested enough to check it out, and maybe have something to add to our quandaries regarding the dehydration potential of PG vs VG, or other methods that can be used to corral those mischievous electrolytes and keep 'em where they belong. I don't think any of us suffering this particular problem would turn up our noses at any potential fix.
Andria
It might be a myth that pg has a better throat hit. I get equal throat hit with vg by adding just the right amount of water. It elevates the amount of vapor production hitting the throat. The quality of Nic also helps. And oh, being a newbie does not necessarily disqualify you. It's the quality of thinking that counts.
For the present, I'm going to treat it as on-going, primarily because I've struggled with dehydration for so many years -- I always had issues when I consumed anything with a lot of potassium, like bananas -- they would actually *give* me cramps, probably because they altered the existing balance, the "homeostasis" if you will. That tells me that I've probably had this actual problem for a long time, just never severely enough to also get the swollen ankles and sore, lumpy feet, and that vaping has changed it, but in altogether the wrong direction, hence the recent symptoms. Right now the swelling is completely gone, but I'm vaping probably somewhat less than 50% of what I was before all this caca hit the blades; since I'm trying to get back to full-time vaping, I'll probably need to increase the coconut water slightly to keep my ankles slim and pain-free.
Right now I'm drinking about one full can of Goya coconut water per day, which is nearly 12oz (it's metric so it says "11.8oz"); I drink it in about 2 or 3 different sessions, basically "morning noon and night" though for me that equals "noon evening and night"; I use a lot of ice, because someone reminded me that that's an excellent way to add just a bit more water, and I pour whatever glass about 5/6 full of coconut water, then add pineapple juice to top it off -- actually it kinda reminds me of when I used to make strong Gin&OJs, only this time the [nearly] clear stuff is good for me, instead of poisonous!
The coconut water taste is so light, the pineapple taste is actually much stronger; the coconut water just makes it taste like sweeter pineapple juice. I really only add the pineapple juice for my own taste, because I find the Goya coconut water a bit too sweet, but it's the only one I can find that doesn't have that "salty" taste like sports drinks. *yuk* Anyway, they have it at Walmart, in the "asian foods" section rather than the drinks -- they do have some coconut water where the other water is, but it's that salty kind, and actually costs a lot more than the Goya. The Walmart nearest me only has the kind "with pulp," but I strain it out, I don't like solid bits in my beverages; the next-nearest Walmart only has the kind "without pulp," but it costs .06 more a can, so I save money by shopping at my nearest store (gas) and straining out the pulp myself!
Andria
Here we have drinks that are basically water+a touch of juice. They have enough potassium and sodium but not so much as sports drinks and are much more palatable. I also find sports drinks undrinkable, too salty. I drink at least 2 liters of these watery juices a day, and haven't had a dihydration problem in 2 years. Also I'm vaping at around 30% VG, enough for vapor but not that much for lung congestion. If you feel too congested ask your doctor for some Acetylcysteine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia it'll decongest your lungs in no time.
Also ask to have your asthma puff changed. Ipratropium bromide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia this works better for my astma/COPD combined.
Also ask to have your asthma puff changed. Ipratropium bromide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia this works better for my astma/COPD combined.
Maybe that's why I didn't notice any particular decrease in the TH from this new mix I was trying, which was about 60% Vg, but highly diluted. I got a bit tired of it, actually, and just replaced it with a different mix; my old familiar Virginia, with a little WTA Virginia added. Gotta get another "ADV" that I can cling to like a life preserver and ditch these horrible cigarettes. This actually tastes pretty good, considering that my tastebuds are cigarette-tolerant at the moment; the WTA really does seem to add *something* that seems more cigarette-like, somehow.
Andria
EDIT: I meant to add, I've actually found that throat hit has even more to do with the device, and sometimes even in the particulars of the coil you're using -- to me a Kayfun has a *mighty* throat hit, and if you mount the coil quite high, even moreso -- getting the KFL+ clone is what initially got me from 85%PG to 75%PG, because at 85%PG the TH just about killed me. And I find my dripper, a Caterpillar, almost impossible to use because the TH is so hot and intense, it triggers an asthma attack. I finally managed to build an open, airy, high-ohm coil for it that I can handle, but it's still almost too much for me.
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It wouldn't be too hard to test if VG absorbs more water than PG. All you'd need is two sealed containers that can fit two glasses of some sort. I'd use shot glasses, but even bottle caps would work if they're all the same.
In each container place a glass of water filled to the same level. Then in one container place a glass with some 100%* PG. In the other container place a glass with 100%* VG to the same level as the glass of PG. Both the PG and VG should be 100%. All of the glasses filled with PG and VG shouldn't be more than half full. Water glasses/cups should be close to full. Seal the containers. I have some tupperware-like containers that would fit 2 shot glasses and have a sealed lid on top like this Amazon.com: Lock&Lock Slender BPA Free Food Storage Container with Leak Proof Locking Lid, 4.6-Cups, 37 Fluid Ounce: Lock And Lock Food Storage Containers: Kitchen & Dining .
For best results use a container that fits the glasses/cups well, but has as little extra space as possible. Clear glasses/cups make it easy to see results. Setup both containers at the same time so the starting humidity in them both is the same. Keep them out of direct sunlight to avoid uneven evaporation.
The water will evaporate in the container until the air is at 100% relative humidity. The PG/VG will absorb the water from the air while whence a certain relative humidity is reached. There needs to be enough water to saturate the air and still have a remaining supply which is why a container with as little air space is best.
If all of the above is satisfied and the containers are left to sit for some time (might be a while i.e. days) you should see the level of the PG/VG increase different amounts. This should correspond to different amounts of water reserve left as well (higher PG/VG level would have lower water reserve level). Whichever container (containing PG or VG) has less water reserve after the same time will show which solvent absorbs more water. It is possible that you can just see which PG or VG level is higher, but I'm unfamiliar with how the densities of the hydrated solvents vary, better to go by how much water was absorbed. It might take a few runs to get the right amount of water for the given air space. Wider glasses/cup or even petri dishes would make the evaporation/absorption go faster due to increased surface area.
You could also make a third control container containing saturated salt (NaCl, table salt) instead of PG/VG (fill a glass/cup with salt and then wet it just a bit). The slightly moist salt paste should keep the relative humidity somewhere around 75% at room temp. Though all this would do is tell you if PG/VG absorb more or less than the salt. This is a common way to test a hygrometer (humidity indicator) for accuracy. Could also try it with PEG.
I'd do this, but I haven't gotten into DIY juice and don't have any PG or VG yet.
*as close to 100% as possible.
In each container place a glass of water filled to the same level. Then in one container place a glass with some 100%* PG. In the other container place a glass with 100%* VG to the same level as the glass of PG. Both the PG and VG should be 100%. All of the glasses filled with PG and VG shouldn't be more than half full. Water glasses/cups should be close to full. Seal the containers. I have some tupperware-like containers that would fit 2 shot glasses and have a sealed lid on top like this Amazon.com: Lock&Lock Slender BPA Free Food Storage Container with Leak Proof Locking Lid, 4.6-Cups, 37 Fluid Ounce: Lock And Lock Food Storage Containers: Kitchen & Dining .
For best results use a container that fits the glasses/cups well, but has as little extra space as possible. Clear glasses/cups make it easy to see results. Setup both containers at the same time so the starting humidity in them both is the same. Keep them out of direct sunlight to avoid uneven evaporation.
The water will evaporate in the container until the air is at 100% relative humidity. The PG/VG will absorb the water from the air while whence a certain relative humidity is reached. There needs to be enough water to saturate the air and still have a remaining supply which is why a container with as little air space is best.
If all of the above is satisfied and the containers are left to sit for some time (might be a while i.e. days) you should see the level of the PG/VG increase different amounts. This should correspond to different amounts of water reserve left as well (higher PG/VG level would have lower water reserve level). Whichever container (containing PG or VG) has less water reserve after the same time will show which solvent absorbs more water. It is possible that you can just see which PG or VG level is higher, but I'm unfamiliar with how the densities of the hydrated solvents vary, better to go by how much water was absorbed. It might take a few runs to get the right amount of water for the given air space. Wider glasses/cup or even petri dishes would make the evaporation/absorption go faster due to increased surface area.
You could also make a third control container containing saturated salt (NaCl, table salt) instead of PG/VG (fill a glass/cup with salt and then wet it just a bit). The slightly moist salt paste should keep the relative humidity somewhere around 75% at room temp. Though all this would do is tell you if PG/VG absorb more or less than the salt. This is a common way to test a hygrometer (humidity indicator) for accuracy. Could also try it with PEG.
I'd do this, but I haven't gotten into DIY juice and don't have any PG or VG yet.
*as close to 100% as possible.
Andria .. thanks for starting this much needed discussion. I hesitate to post this because of your distaste for pulp in your beverages but perhaps others will benefit nonetheless. Smoothies are a wonderful way to hydrate and is easy to adjust ingredients to suit your taste buds and nutritional needs. It's a nice tasty way to get some of those electrolytes we need as well. FWIW I don't care for pulp either and blend my smoothies so they are just that, smooth .. like a milk shake. Today's smoothie consisted of:
Peach Mango V-Fusion juice
Organic Strawberry Yogurt
Pineapple - fresh
Apple - organic
Banana - frozen
Strawberries - frozen
Baby Spinach
Celery
Cucumber
Peach Mango V-Fusion juice
Organic Strawberry Yogurt
Pineapple - fresh
Apple - organic
Banana - frozen
Strawberries - frozen
Baby Spinach
Celery
Cucumber
Thanks chopper for the suggestion. I will try it once I get the material together.
I collapsed on the hockey rink in March due to dehydration. Vaped a 30ml 24mg Rootbeer in one day, the day before. Just got cleared to play again two weeks ago. Had to undergo every test known to man. All came back clear and my doctor told me "I am not sure what you are doing but keep doing it as you have never been this healthy." Told him I quit smoking last year and now I vape. He said "you keep vaping." He then changed my charts to Non Smoker in which made me happy.
Well I'm doing great with the coconut water + pineapple juice, but others might benefit from the watery juices. I don't go to doctors unless it's either an emergency or my regular asthma checkup twice a year. Without insurance, I just can't afford it.
Aside from the fact that I don't have COPD at all, just asthma, no way am I changing from the albuterol sulfate that's worked perfectly for me for so many (30+) years; that's my security blanket!!! Besides which, I get my Ventolin free from Glaxo-Smith-Kline, 4 inhalers at a time, so it's not really something that can be easily changed. I went to Ventolin rather than generic albuterol inhalers after they changed the formula from the ozone-damaging stuff to the "HFA", hydrofluoroalkane, because Ventolin is the only one that doesn't taste like grain alcohol, which is just repugnant to me.
Andria
I certainly would never have thought of putting spinach, celery, or cucumber into a smoothie. Sounds icky to me, but I have a *thing* about not mixing sweet and salty tastes; I've never been able to stomach "Waldorf Salad" because of mayonnaise + apples, that sounds horrible to me. Smoothies do sound good, but for me, only if it's just one or two flavors, not a whole produce section.
Just another quirk of mine, don't care for fruit cocktail either, or fruitcake, or fruit salad. I had to throw out the blender we had, it leaked like a sieve, and I really didn't use it much anyway, so I guess at some point we'll replace it, but as little need for it as I usually have, haven't been beating a path to the store for one.
I was thinking I should start getting canteloupe on a regular basis; it's melon, so probably a huge water content, and I really like them; I could eat a good deal of that stuff, which would help a *lot* of my body's issues.
Thx!
Andria
LOL .. Green smoothies (as they are often called) sound & look disgusting to many folks. Basically, if you combine the ingredients properly you can't taste the veggies. Quite remarkable actually. I often leave out the veggies and make a simple fruit smoothie with a combination of fresh and frozen fruits.
All the melons are great for hydration! Good plan.
All the melons are great for hydration! Good plan.
I have been doing about a glass of coconut water a day, and about 2000ml of water--half of it used the Pocari Sweat powder to mix. One packet is recommended to be for 1000ml, I've split it up and only use 1/3 of the packet each day.
I love the Pocari Sweat drink since I was little when I was in Hong Kong. At least it tastes better to me.
I've resumed to take all my meds instead of stopping any by myself. Today, my swollen left ankle finally is less swollen and red compare to the last week.
I always have problem with drinking enough water. I don't like the taste, and I would feel like unable to breath after a few sips. I always use my mouth to breath instead of my nose also. But with the coconut water to start my day, then 1liter of Pocari Sweat, it makes drinking the 1liter of plain water easier somehow.
Thanks for all the info here which make me finally to try to at least slowly increase my water intake.
I love the Pocari Sweat drink since I was little when I was in Hong Kong. At least it tastes better to me.
I've resumed to take all my meds instead of stopping any by myself. Today, my swollen left ankle finally is less swollen and red compare to the last week.
I always have problem with drinking enough water. I don't like the taste, and I would feel like unable to breath after a few sips. I always use my mouth to breath instead of my nose also. But with the coconut water to start my day, then 1liter of Pocari Sweat, it makes drinking the 1liter of plain water easier somehow.
Thanks for all the info here which make me finally to try to at least slowly increase my water intake.
I don't have the time right now to read all 10 pages of replies, so in case it hasn't been covered-
"Catastrophic Dehydration" is not the name of an actual medical condition. Your symptoms sound like you are generally dehydrated, but not "catastrophically".
I'm just assuming here, but I would think that catastrophic dehydration is probably similar to severe dehydration, in which case you would be dead or in the ER from it. Once you get to the point of severe dehydration your body begins to get rid of all of its fluids, and without professional medical intervention you will die.
Severe dehydration also has a very rapid onset. Your weeks and months of combined symptoms point to something other than severe dehydration.
Your pain and swelling were likely gone after your hospital stay because you were given fluids, which fixed your dehydration.
IMHO, it is unfair to blame your edema on PG. Edema is a pretty generalized medical term and PG is not a known contributing factor. Your unilateral edema symptoms alone have several possibilities (http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/524606_3). I know that you said PG is the only factor that could cause your edema, but you also said you don't regularly go to the doctor, so given the fact that PG is not known to cause edema, and the fact that you have no way of knowing what is, I would lean toward thinking that something that doesn't cause edema is not causing edema.
PG can potentially exacerbate your dehydration, but this is fixed by drinking fluids. 12oz of coconut water, or any other fluid a day is not at all sufficient. I'm pretty sure I pee more than 12oz every morning.
I do agree that you are dehydrated. You should drink a lot of water, I drink about 60-100oz a day and still get symptoms of mild dehydration after a long hike or other strenuous activity.
Salt/Sodium is definitely not good if you feel dehydrated. Once you feel dehydrated you need water, after you hydrate you can have salt and sodium containing drinks like Gatorade. Water replenishes fluids, sodium retains fluid. If you are dehydrated you need to replenish before you retain.
"Catastrophic Dehydration" is not the name of an actual medical condition. Your symptoms sound like you are generally dehydrated, but not "catastrophically".
I'm just assuming here, but I would think that catastrophic dehydration is probably similar to severe dehydration, in which case you would be dead or in the ER from it. Once you get to the point of severe dehydration your body begins to get rid of all of its fluids, and without professional medical intervention you will die.
Severe dehydration also has a very rapid onset. Your weeks and months of combined symptoms point to something other than severe dehydration.
Your pain and swelling were likely gone after your hospital stay because you were given fluids, which fixed your dehydration.
IMHO, it is unfair to blame your edema on PG. Edema is a pretty generalized medical term and PG is not a known contributing factor. Your unilateral edema symptoms alone have several possibilities (http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/524606_3). I know that you said PG is the only factor that could cause your edema, but you also said you don't regularly go to the doctor, so given the fact that PG is not known to cause edema, and the fact that you have no way of knowing what is, I would lean toward thinking that something that doesn't cause edema is not causing edema.
PG can potentially exacerbate your dehydration, but this is fixed by drinking fluids. 12oz of coconut water, or any other fluid a day is not at all sufficient. I'm pretty sure I pee more than 12oz every morning.
I do agree that you are dehydrated. You should drink a lot of water, I drink about 60-100oz a day and still get symptoms of mild dehydration after a long hike or other strenuous activity.
Salt/Sodium is definitely not good if you feel dehydrated. Once you feel dehydrated you need water, after you hydrate you can have salt and sodium containing drinks like Gatorade. Water replenishes fluids, sodium retains fluid. If you are dehydrated you need to replenish before you retain.
Well as you pointed out, you didn't bother to read the whole thread. I didn't "stay" in the hospital; I was discharged the same day as the surgery. After 3-4 days near-total bed rest (getting up only when my body required some purge of either end, all liquid), yes, the swelling and most of the pain went away. And JUST as soon as I tried to go back to vaping, IT CAME RIGHT BACK, and took a further week to finally go away, after I discovered coconut water.
Again, you didn't bother to read the whole thread. The 12oz of coconut water is not ALL I drink all day, certainly not, are you insane? I drink a huge quantity of water, juice, occasional small glasses of sports drinks, occasional small glasses of decaf soda (ginger ale), and in the morning, 2 cups of tea -- instead of the daily 10 cups of tea I was drinking before all this. Drinking all that stuff did NOTHING for my problems... UNTIL I ADDED THE COCONUT WATER!
It may not be the PG -- it might be both the carrier chemicals -- we're in the process of trying to determine that, but of course, you didn't read that either. But PG does have a huge reputation for causing dehydration, and one of the reasons for edema is dehydration -- because dehydration leads to electrolyte imbalance -- in my case, too much sodium, not enough potassium. Once I started taking in potassium, THE EDEMA WENT AWAY! The fact that so many people in this thread are experiencing very similar symptoms since becoming vapers does point to a significant co-relation, whether it's PG, or both PG/VG.
This thread is not primarily about dehydration itself, but about what it can lead to -- electrolyte imbalance, which is what causes all those painful symptoms so many of us are experiencing, and the FACT is, if you drink too much water, you can bring this on yourself, thinking you are well-hydrated -- I was urinating every 15 mins, and it was almost completely clear -- doesn't sound much like dehydration, does it? But the damage to the electrolyte balance had already been done, and drinking more and more and more water was flushing more of them out of my body all the time, worsening the problem. Only when I began taking in fairly large amounts of potassium and slightly decreasing my salt intake (and significantly reducing my caffeine intake) did the problem go away.
You really ought to read the whole thread before throwing out a lot of stuff that does not apply. You might have a better understanding of what is actually being said, and your comments might be better received.
Andria
I too started drinking less caffeine. I used to drink two big cups (16oz cup) of black coffee a day as I work from home. But changed to just 1 since adding sport drink and coconut water. It actually took about a week to finally see my ankle less swollen. I think that I am dehydrated all my life as I hate water but the problem gets worse when I start vaping. I haven't have a badly swollen red ankle for almost 7 years now. While I had mild joint problems and swelling but it was no where near what it is two weeks ago which is the third month I switched to full time vaping.
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